Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

Pretentious Goblin

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Nov 3, 2017
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If people want a forever-production, an endless treadmill of new content from the same dev for the same game, who is to say they're wrong? Especially if an ending is added at some point and then the rest is bonus content. A subscription model isn't inherently bad, milking is, i.e. not being honest or reliable towards your patrons.
 

PropaJack

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Jun 24, 2021
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I'm making one. It's hard to do it without support. To make a good game, you need time and people. We also need to survive. I want to do this full-time, but how I'll do it without the support? How I'll buy a better PC or pay someone to help me? It's a necessity for the indies...
 
Dec 20, 2022
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Even if developers were using this model instead, we would still have tons of unfinished and poorly made games because that's also true of SFW games and most of those don't use subscription models.

If we wanted that to change though, we'd need some publishers who can provide funding so devs can just focus on game development. Alternatively folks need to already have enough money to work on their games full time. I'd be curious about how folks get their games going in the first place.

Personally, I work a full-time job that pays poorly so the amount of time I can devote is not great.
 

traplover19

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Nov 4, 2018
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that's why this site exists if the game is unfinished like with normal games
i will just pirate it until they give me the finished product if that is never then well
i will just keep downloading for free

i do think patreon is a problem but not for the reasons you stated mainly censorship
patreon is really wierd of what they wont and will allow and can on a whim decided to ban all sorts of content they disaprove of

thats why i think personally subscribe star is better
 

Tauro Thurius

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Jul 17, 2021
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Patreon is a great platform for people who are extremely talented and ambitious to show the market what they can achieve with proper funding. Unfortunately, it's being abused by some people who milk the funding with unreasonable delays, and some "developers" who abandon the project as soon as they hit their goals in terms of financial gain.

Nevertheless, those who abuse this great platform are few in numbers compared to those who use it to create amazing stuff.
 

cisco_donovan

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Sep 18, 2020
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Patreon and is wonderful and problematic. Like most technologies it's not inherently good or bad, it's all about how it's used.

Patreon enables many creators to actually release something. It lowers the bar for people getting into development. This is good for players because it allows many more ideas to flourish and reduces the risk for experimentation. So you get more weird shit.

This can also be bad because making games is super difficult - most developers, though excellent at their core strength (usually art, writing or code), lack the secondary skills needed to succeed (project management, planning, marketing, UX, business stuff, financial stuff). Even for devs with all those things (or more likely a team of them), you have to earn a lot of money on Patreon to spend the time needed to finish a project. And then there's just the sheer stomach to sit down in front of the same project every day and constantly fight all the little fires that it throws up.

So patreon enables many more developers to get going, but surprise surprise, most of those developers lack the experience or skill or even luck to ultimately deliver on the project. This is not a criticism of any of those developers. You don't know until you try, and everyone has the right to try. Unfortunately you probably need to try many times to get it right.

Some games, the ones which manage to make it to a decent size and stability, use Patreon very effectively as a subscription model. These games aren't about "finishing" - that's not even a goal. Like World of Warcraft or Destiny, the aim of these games to keep churning out content to keep players interested. Supports should be made to understand this before supporting.

Personally, I do think Patreon is a bad deal for a lot of creators and a lot of supporters. It's too easy to fund a game for a year only to see it collapse. No blame on either side there, but it's a shitty situation.

Ideally, players would look at Patreon subscriptions a bit more critically. Do I think this project will succeed? Do I mind if it fails? Am I expecting a finished game or ongoing content updates? Do I want to support the creator at all costs or wait for them to finish? All fair questions, and players should weigh them up before supporting.

Of course, they don't: most players make a snap decision to support and get upset if expectations aren't being met. This, I suspect, is how the OP feels.

But It's a two-way street and I also think developers should be careful about whether they want to start a patreon. Is the game ready? Can I spend enough time to give value to patreons? How many patreons do I need to be sustainable, and is there a chance I'll get that? Can I keep players updated? Do I want to manage and maintain a community? What happens when I hit 1.0?
 

anne O'nymous

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More fundamentally speaking Adult Developers are complete amateurs that have no respect for the playerbase and with egos in stratosphere.
Not everyone is like you, you know ?


Japanese Visual Novels have figured this for a long time, all you need are Character Sprites and Backgrounds and use Scene Renders sparingly.
Have you never noticed the main difference between the fully pre-rendered CGs and those relying on sprites ?

And, no, I don't talk about the 2D/3D difference, because there's Western creators, that use Patreon and 3D, that also rely on sprites for their games. I'm talking about the camera angle.
Fully rendered CGs permit to play with the camera, like one would do for a movie or even a comic. This add a depth to the visual part of the game, what permit to carry more information and add dynamism to the story. Something that is rare on the Asian scene, because drawing fully scenes take way more times than fully rendering 3D scenes.


So what do they use instead? They actually use Writing to keep the reader interested, things like Plot and Character Development and Choices and Consequences.
The Asian scene is the poorest in terms of writing and character development. It goes for the adult gaming scene at the opposite of what happen for the comics scene, Asian are far behind in terms of final quality.
Oh, of course, the dialogs themselves are generally better than half of what you can find on the Western scene, but it's a small parts of the "writing". In Asian games, the characters are way more stereotypical than on the Western scene, and they rarely evolve ; what a character is at the start of the game, is what she'll be at the end of it. In a way, this tell a lot about the cultural difference ; when it come to seduction, the mind matters more than the appearance.
As for the stories themselves, they also are purely stereotypical, focusing on a single point and never going outside of clearly defined and perfectly cleared paths. Stories that don't fully rely around the characters are rare on the Asian scene. When it's a male protagonist VN, you know that the whole story will be about learning more about the girl. And when it's a female protagonist VN, the story will be about her learning to accept her place in this world ; a place that is generally nothing else than being a sex tool. This while, on Western scene, stories are generally something that happen in the background. Even when the VN focus more on the characters themselves, you'll witness their journey through the events of the world, seeing how it affect them and make them evolve.

What doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It's just that they are radically different in their approach, and are addressing different kind of public.


What a Novel concept!!?? A novel you are actually reading? Am I a genius??
No, you are an idiot, because you limits the adult gaming scene to Visual Novels, and are totally forgetting the "visual" parts, that still make half of the name. You discard it as if it was something insignificant while, at the opposite, it's a factor as important as the writing itself.

Once again, the fact that not everyone is able to do it right doesn't change the reality behind the Visual Novel concept, a VN rely on the famous "show, don't tell".
The goal is to write as less as possible, letting the CGs carry a part of the information. And it's not something that can be done with sprites, because they'll never have the accuracy needed to carry effective information. Seeing a character smiling or frowning is not telling much more than a generic mood. This while goodly chosen camera angle and character pose while tell you a whole story in just one render. Then, you'll not need the annoying and stupid "I think that she's lying" MC's internal thought, by example, everything is already shown by the CG in front of the player.

This once again go back to the main difference, the targeted public. The Asian scene address players who don't want to think, with a predictable story without twist or mystery, and being mouth fed every significant information. This while the Western scene address a public more mature, where you need to use a part of your brain in order to understand and appreciate what you are witnessing.
It's not only in its making process that Western VN need more times, but also in while you're playing them. You don't just have to read the text and pass to the next line, you need to look at the CGS and weight what you just red accordingly to what you are seeing ; you need to think what, I agree, don't mix well with your hand being furiously jerking your brain.


What does Adult "Writers" do instead? Even when things get interesting and the Plot is finally Progressing..

(Subscribe to my Patreon) to keep updated when the rest of this Comment will be released, next Update should be in Early Access for my 25$ Tier in ~360 days. ;) :whistle::whistle::whistle:
I'll take "How to tell that I'm below the legal age to be on this site".
 

desmosome

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Sep 5, 2018
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No, you are an idiot, because you limits the adult gaming scene to Visual Novels, and are totally forgetting the "visual" parts, that still make half of the name. You discard it as if it was something insignificant while, at the opposite, it's a factor as important as the writing itself.
I think both you and him are generalizing too much, but just talking about this segment here...

If you are going to be pedantic about the term Visual Novel, shouldn't you consider the Japanese origin of this term? It's traditionally been used to describe those very games using 2D sprites as the primary mode of visualization. The dynamic visuals of 3D/DAZ rendering in the west is a very new thing.
 

anne O'nymous

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If you are going to be pedantic about the term Visual Novel, shouldn't you consider the Japanese origin of this term?
If you are going to the origin, shouldn't you consider the origin of the genre and not of the term ? After all, "Visual Novel" predate from decades the creation of computers.

As usual Wikipedia English is USA centered and believe that the US invented everything, here " " that appeared for the first time in the late 20's. As for the web, it believe that were invented in Italy during the 40's. But the very first publication was a novel from Alphonse Daudet, The Reverend Father Gaucher's Elixir, published in a photo novel version in 1890, and at this time, at least two French books editors specialized in this genre ; good luck finding this outside of the french speaking web :(
That, due to their own history, Japaneses were the first to adapt the genre to computers do not mean that they invented it.


The dynamic visuals of 3D/DAZ rendering in the west is a very new thing.
That is addressing something that exist at least since near to a century.
 

desmosome

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Sep 5, 2018
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If you are going to the origin, shouldn't you consider the origin of the genre and not of the term ? After all, "Visual Novel" predate from decades the creation of computers.

As usual Wikipedia English is USA centered and believe that the US invented everything, here " " that appeared for the first time in the late 20's. As for the web, it believe that were invented in Italy during the 40's. But the very first publication was a novel from Alphonse Daudet, The Reverend Father Gaucher's Elixir, published in a photo novel version in 1890, and at this time, at least two French books editors specialized in this genre ; good luck finding this outside of the french speaking web :(
That, due to their own history, Japaneses were the first to adapt the genre to computers do not mean that they invented it.
Your reply to the other guy was based on the term "Visual Novel." There is a history behind the coinage of the term and its origins. Its predecessors are Japanese actually. Your photo novels are entirely different things.

You are muddying the waters by conflating comic books, photo novels, light novels, and any medium in which a story is told through a mix of visuals and text as the same thing, but that's not the topic of our discussion.

It was specifically the fact that you singled out the "Visual" part of the term "Visual Novel," and said that the visual part had to tell an equal amount of narrative as the text, which is factually not true when you look at the origin of Visual Novel as a term and genre. The Visual Novel genre's popularization in the west largely coincides with Katawa Shoujo, which was again, a 2D sprite VN with a much larger emphasis on the "novel" part.

Visual Novel is an actual term to describe these types of games and not exactly an amalgamation of any visual + novel situation. Just like how "Video Games" are a term to describe a specific thing rather than a blanket amalgamation of the terms video + game.

I know how you almost never acknowledge the opposing side and will probably come up with some argument here, but the point stands. Pointing out that the word "visual" in the "visual novel" as being a 50% partner in the narrative weight is clearly ignoring the origins of the term. Is it a reasonable expectation now, after the western styled VNs of today have been incorporated into the VN umbrella? You could make that argument, I suppose. I wouldn't agree, but the argument could be made if you framed it that way.

That is addressing something that exist at least since near to a century.
Sometimes, I wonder if you try to be obtuse on purpose. I was obviously talking about the dynamic "movie-like" visuals enabled by easy access 3D rendering being used in Visual Novels as a comparatively new phenomenon.
 
Dec 20, 2022
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I do think it is important to consider how much work something is going to take. Even in AAA games where there are thousands of people working on a project, they will take into consideration how much work doing things in certain ways is. Sometimes that means going for the way that requires a lot of content, but sometimes not, it depends on the needs of the game.

I think choosing static character sprites and backgrounds is a solid choice if it means content can get generated faster (though I definitely expect more for the sexual content).
 

anne O'nymous

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Your reply to the other guy was based on the term "Visual Novel." There is a history behind the coinage of the term and its origins.
Of course there's an history behind: " "


Its predecessors are Japanese actually.
" "

Interesting to see you make the distinction below, when you'll argue that the visual parts is purely secondary, while you not make it here, making them deeply linked. Because "adventure games" are not the same thing than our text based adventure games. The first Japanese one (" ") is clearly visual, and this visual component is the key factor of the genre.

Be noted that the game mechanisms (an opened world, a none linear story with alternate endings, served by a visual representation of the scene and keywords for the input) wasn't something new. Sierra Entertainment released the first game of what would later become their , ; and from memories (but it can betray me, I was really young in the early 80's), it wasn't the first game relying on those combined game mechanisms. The Portopia Serial Murder Case just put it many steps further, by pushing the limits of the player/game interactions and the limits of what can be done with such game mechanisms.


Visual Novel is an actual term to describe these types of games and not exactly an amalgamation of any visual + novel situation. Just like how "Video Games" are a term to describe a specific thing rather than a blanket amalgamation of the terms video + game.
At no time did I said that "Visual Novel" were the amalgamation of two terms. What I said is that the name was chosen because Visual Novels were created with the clear and precise intent to add a visual parts to text based video games ; what your own argumentation is saying. And this imply that the visual part is not an insignificant element, but at the opposite what differentiate them from the said text based adventures.

By the way, video games are named like this because they are games you play on a media that provide both images and sounds, therefore a ...
After, you can, if you want, argue that it's just a coincidence and not the amalgamation of the terms "video" and "game", and that video games can exist on media that aren't video, or be video content that aren't an interactive entertainment form (therefore that aren't games). But I'm not sure that even you can twist your mind enough to do it.


I know how you almost never acknowledge the opposing side [...]
Have you noticed that when it happen, what is not as frequent as you believe it (but I guess that you notice it mostly when I'm answering you), it's because the said opposing side is using spurious, when not purely wrong, arguments ?
Like when you are saying two opposed things in the same post. Starting by saying that Visual Novels come from text based adventure games, to which Japaneses added a visual parts, then trying to argues that the visual part is insignificant in the genre. All this by referring to "video games", believing that the terms come from something else than the amalgamation of the two words that describe them, "video" and "games".
So, of course that I'll not acknowledge your side, because you have no side, saying everything and its opposite in the same post.


and will probably come up with some argument here, but the point stands. Pointing out that the word "visual" in the "visual novel" as being a 50% partner in the narrative weight is clearly ignoring the origins of the term.
You should go back to your own references, because they are saying the opposite (see above in this post).