- Oct 4, 2021
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Thank you. Yeah, all this started with me trying to make a comic book. Eventually I found visual novels and it moved from there.
Please help me decide. Create a 2d or 3d game? Samples of my work included.
- Thread starter Scarecrow-76
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- Oct 4, 2021
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Thanks for the advise. To be honest, I havent played an American/West 2d AVN that wasnt a dating sim or something in that area. Do you know of any erotic dramas that are 2d so I could see an example? Thanks again.
Another aspect I would consider is, how fast do you make your pieces. And how easy/hard is it for you to remake pieces about a certain character.
Do you value being able to make unique scenes that 3d models won't allow?
These are really important data points for 2d vs 3d.
Do you value being able to make unique scenes that 3d models won't allow?
These are really important data points for 2d vs 3d.
- Oct 4, 2021
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Curious, now that I think about it, the only games America/West made 2d games I've played are dating sim type games. Basically doing errands to gain favor. Do you know of any AVN's that are more story maybe drama type?
- May 3, 2017
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Unfortunately i dont have any examples for you - which is why i said they are hard to come by. I am not a visual novel fan in general due to that and the few i liked where mainly 'copycat' products of more eastern ones.
3D does have an advantage that once you set a scene in terms of props, characters, cloths etc. it's relatively easy to produce several images with low effort, just move the camera/lighting and the characters. But the initial setup can take hours until you're happy.
The biggest downside for me is that I'm limited to existing assets which sometimes prevents me from going on directions I'd like to take. Yes, I'm well aware that I can solve most problems with Blender, Photoshop and other exotic solutions but since I also write, code and market my game I find that optimizing specific assets has a very low ROI for me: I stick to what I can buy.
The biggest downside for me is that I'm limited to existing assets which sometimes prevents me from going on directions I'd like to take. Yes, I'm well aware that I can solve most problems with Blender, Photoshop and other exotic solutions but since I also write, code and market my game I find that optimizing specific assets has a very low ROI for me: I stick to what I can buy.
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- Dec 3, 2021
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Definitely a good choice going for 2D, easier to stand out that way.
As for coding, I'd suggest downloading a few good 2D games (3D too, why not), using UnRen to extract the files if they've been compiled and checking how they handle their script. For example, What a Legend! has a really cool system where each part of the body is a different image file and depending on what's required in the current scene, they're layered on top of each other. They even have the eyes in a separate file, so they can do eye animations during the scene.
As for coding, I'd suggest downloading a few good 2D games (3D too, why not), using UnRen to extract the files if they've been compiled and checking how they handle their script. For example, What a Legend! has a really cool system where each part of the body is a different image file and depending on what's required in the current scene, they're layered on top of each other. They even have the eyes in a separate file, so they can do eye animations during the scene.
- Aug 20, 2021
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Typically, I'm a lot more into 3D than 2D VN.
But in this case, I gotta say your 2D artwork is far superior to your 3D artwork. Your 2D artwork looks so professional, it has a unique style. Very good use of colors so vibrant and beautiful, nice and clean line art, very erotic stylized anatomy, and great character facial expressions.
Anyway, your 3D artwork when compares to your 2D looks amateur, lifeless and stiff, and kinda average. It has no charm from your 2D artwork at all from what you show us. So you should go for the 2D route IMO.
Another thing is 2D art style is a lot easier to pop out than 3D because it's instantly unique but for Daz3D or HS when you have almost the same assets from Daz store or any other places as other devs, it's quite hard and tricky to stand out.
You said you like the more serious story and most VN with the serious story is 3D, then would you kindly make a 2D VN with the serious story!? I really love to see one!
If I said something too harsh and offended you I deeply apologize, I didn't mean to talk shit about your 3D art or anything but damn man your 2D art is too good to not make a game with that style.
But in this case, I gotta say your 2D artwork is far superior to your 3D artwork. Your 2D artwork looks so professional, it has a unique style. Very good use of colors so vibrant and beautiful, nice and clean line art, very erotic stylized anatomy, and great character facial expressions.
Anyway, your 3D artwork when compares to your 2D looks amateur, lifeless and stiff, and kinda average. It has no charm from your 2D artwork at all from what you show us. So you should go for the 2D route IMO.
Another thing is 2D art style is a lot easier to pop out than 3D because it's instantly unique but for Daz3D or HS when you have almost the same assets from Daz store or any other places as other devs, it's quite hard and tricky to stand out.
You said you like the more serious story and most VN with the serious story is 3D, then would you kindly make a 2D VN with the serious story!? I really love to see one!
If I said something too harsh and offended you I deeply apologize, I didn't mean to talk shit about your 3D art or anything but damn man your 2D art is too good to not make a game with that style.
Please hear me out. There are 2 types of VN. The japanese type (JVN) and the comics type and the distinction has little to do with art. It has to do with how you break out your story. The JVN is one of the most common sprite using method. Usually the sprites look towards the camera, there's a lot of text and only the lewd scenes are made spriteless. This is the most common way to use the 2d art because otherwise if you do it spriteless, as most 3dcg do it (each phrase a different frame) it's impossible. Which means that what your work might lose in graphics, you must make it up in words, descriptions and dialogue.
Most of the 2dcg are abandoned because once you start, 2d art is very time consuming. (Unless you trace it like me and photo filter your background images.)
Here's a post from the Developers' Forum
VN delivery style
From what I've seen so far there are at least 2 basic types of delivering a VN
There's the classic/japanese way and the modern comic like way. Both have pros and cons.
CLASSIC WAY
PROS: Cheaper hardware necessary. Faster story progression which means more sex and more updates. Easier for the player/reader since his eyes don't move often to cover the whole screen.
The classic way is very useful for 2dcg and for very ramificating storylines since it saves up time from each frame and gives it to story progression. But it's useless if the dev is a bad author, since words must make up for the 'lost' renders.
MODERN WAY
PROS: Higher artistic value (each frame can be a masterpiece), total freedom to express any scene necessary (action, comedy, romance, sex etc). Text is important but... a picture is worth a 1000 words.
The modern way is very useful for 3dcg and for simple storylines. It's very similar to comics or movies. Total freedom of expression. It doesn't necessitate to master the words but you need to master the graphics.
IN CONCLUSION: I'd vote for 2d too. You are great with it! BUT you have 2 choices imho. Or you invest 6/12 months preparing assets and sprites before you go public, or you must be an excellent writer so you'll afford to have fewer artworks on each update.
PS. I'm still learning the ropes here. So, any fellow dev has something to correct/add/complain please feel free to write.
Most of the 2dcg are abandoned because once you start, 2d art is very time consuming. (Unless you trace it like me and photo filter your background images.)
Here's a post from the Developers' Forum
VN delivery style
From what I've seen so far there are at least 2 basic types of delivering a VN
There's the classic/japanese way and the modern comic like way. Both have pros and cons.
CLASSIC WAY
- Sprites always facing camera
- Knee height view
- No/little face expression change, no body language: Bonus: For face expression change usually a side image is used
- No/little scene composition with the background
- Key scenes (Sex scenes etc) are made full screen
PROS: Cheaper hardware necessary. Faster story progression which means more sex and more updates. Easier for the player/reader since his eyes don't move often to cover the whole screen.
The classic way is very useful for 2dcg and for very ramificating storylines since it saves up time from each frame and gives it to story progression. But it's useless if the dev is a bad author, since words must make up for the 'lost' renders.
MODERN WAY
- Sprites most of the time aren't necessary. Each frame can be different.
- Unlimited range of camera angles (Worm's eye view, bird's eye view, 1st person etc)
- Side images often aren't necessary since the face expression is clear
- Characters blend smoothly with the background
- Sex scenes and others are also smoothly integrated
PROS: Higher artistic value (each frame can be a masterpiece), total freedom to express any scene necessary (action, comedy, romance, sex etc). Text is important but... a picture is worth a 1000 words.
The modern way is very useful for 3dcg and for simple storylines. It's very similar to comics or movies. Total freedom of expression. It doesn't necessitate to master the words but you need to master the graphics.
IN CONCLUSION: I'd vote for 2d too. You are great with it! BUT you have 2 choices imho. Or you invest 6/12 months preparing assets and sprites before you go public, or you must be an excellent writer so you'll afford to have fewer artworks on each update.
PS. I'm still learning the ropes here. So, any fellow dev has something to correct/add/complain please feel free to write.
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Whatever you do, I would encourage to use the JVN way. This 'modern' way of making VNs can sure be neat, but it also requires a lot of effort, and I would say that it's most proheminent feature is to bloat your game size until people are no longer willing to download your game because it's bigger than most AAA titles (half kidding here, but seriously, some VNs are just insanely huge when you compare the content they have to other types of games, it is ludicrous).Please hear me out. There are 2 types of VN. The japanese type (JVN) and the comics type and the distinction has little to do with art. It has to do with how you break out your story. The JVN is one of the most common sprite using method. Usually the sprites look towards the camera, there's a lot of text and only the lewd scenes are made spriteless. This is the most common way to use the 2d art because otherwise if you do it spriteless, as most 3dcg do it (each phrase a different frame) it's impossible. Which means that what your work might lose in graphics, you must make it up in words, descriptions and dialogue.
Most of the 2dcg are abandoned because once you start, 2d art is very time consuming. (Unless you trace it like me and photo filter your background images.)
Here's a post from the Developers' Forum
VN delivery style
From what I've seen so far there are at least 2 basic types of delivering a VN
There's the classic/japanese way and the modern comic like way. Both have pros and cons.
CLASSIC WAY
CONS: Smaller artistic value (except full screens that can be masterpieces), dull scene composition, story relies mostly on text so the dev and the player reader must be fluent in english.
- Sprites always facing camera
- Knee height view
- No/little face expression change, no body language: Bonus: For face expression change usually a side image is used
- No/little scene composition with the background
- Key scenes (Sex scenes etc) are made full screen
PROS: Cheaper hardware necessary. Faster story progression which means more sex and more updates. Easier for the player/reader since his eyes don't move often to cover the whole screen.
The classic way is very useful for 2dcg and for very ramificating storylines since it saves up time from each frame and gives it to story progression. But it's useless if the dev is a bad author, since words must make up for the 'lost' renders.
MODERN WAY
CONS: Since every frame can be different and unique, it takes a lot of effort and time. Usually it can't be done in 2d. No 2d artist can be fast enough. (I can but I trace images and filter background photos so it saves me some grief). For 3dcg expensive hardware and assets are a must. Slower story progression. Limited ramifications in storyline. Reader's eyes have to cover the whole screen to understand what's happening. Slower updates.
- Sprites most of the time aren't necessary. Each frame can be different.
- Unlimited range of camera angles (Worm's eye view, bird's eye view, 1st person etc)
- Side images often aren't necessary since the face expression is clear
- Characters blend smoothly with the background
- Sex scenes and others are also smoothly integrated
PROS: Higher artistic value (each frame can be a masterpiece), total freedom to express any scene necessary (action, comedy, romance, sex etc). Text is important but... a picture is worth a 1000 words.
The modern way is very useful for 3dcg and for simple storylines. It's very similar to comics or movies. Total freedom of expression. It doesn't necessitate to master the words but you need to master the graphics.
IN CONCLUSION: I'd vote for 2d too. You are great with it! BUT you have 2 choices imho. Or you invest 6/12 months preparing assets and sprites before you go public, or you must be an excellent writer so you'll afford to have fewer artworks on each update.
PS. I'm still learning the ropes here. So, any fellow dev has something to correct/add/complain please feel free to write.
If you use the JVN ways, it leaves more space to the writing, and most of all, you are free to put the highest effort on the important parts of the story. Not many people will care if your 'MC travels by bus' renders are a masterpiece. However, they will certainely care if the important moments of the story or the sex scenes are a masterpiece.
This is a thing I have learned while making games. Put the effort on the parts of the game that your players will enjoy. Most people won't care much that your game is using sprites instead of CG for the regular boring parts, as long as your story is well written, you make use of the sprites to showcase emotions, and most of all, you highlight key moments with CGs. This will in fact make those key moments higher impact, because they won't be the same thing as the entire rest of the VN.
Now, a word of warning, usually JVNs incorporate other mechanics, or have very high value of production, so what I am advising you to do might be tricky to pull off. But if you want a good exemple of it being executed pretty well, I would recommend you play Funbag Fantasy. That game is almost pure kinetic novel with choices stripped down to being only route choices, and personally I enjoyed it tremendously despite not being a fan of kinetic novels.
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- Oct 4, 2021
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Exactly what makes me hesitate about using 3d. I did a small personal comic using Daz years ago and ran into that problem. I had to work the story around what props I had. And take it from me, going between Daz and blender comes with its own restrictions and big time headaches and problems. Plus having to actually learn blender is a whole other monster.
- Apr 14, 2021
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I do it all the time. However, it has a surprising advantage that sometime 3d products actually inspire me to take my story into a new direction if I find some cool scene/prop/character. A few weeks ago I found and purchased some really cool armored rhino models and I was like "wow, I got to add some armored rhinos in my game!"
This advantage is probably more relevant to fantasy/sci fi stories, though.
- Oct 4, 2021
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Thanks so much. A lot info to take in and think about. Thanks for taking the time.
You can also start with something small. You don't need to make something as big and complicated as summertime saga or chasing sunsets as your first game.
Maybe try to adapt one of your old comics to renpy, with few branches and coding required. Heck, you might even make it a kinetic story if you want.
This would:
1)give you some experience about making and releasing games, if you want to use sprites or not, etc;
2)give you more coding experience that you can take with you for future works;
3)help you better understand how much work it takes to draw/render/write/code a certain amount of gameplay;
4)have way more people look at your work, and let you start to gather a community where you can ask what kind of art they are happier to support you to create;
5)prove that you can start and finish a game; players are much more willing to invest their time/money into games from developers with a good track record;
6)and most importantly: if you have fun doing this kind of work. It's not always easy, and it rarely pays well. If you don't have fun, it's not worth it.
- Oct 4, 2021
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My advice is do a VN 2D erotic game because you are a good 2D artist. Your 3D art is also good, I like the lighting and the angles you chose on your renders. So do one 2D erotic game and one 3D erotic game and see which one is more success then decide after that what you wanna do.
You can also do a comic or an art gallery then implement that into a game because game can be lots of work due to coding. But for a visual novel you can use renpy which is very user friendly and you don't have to code all that much. You can set your game up for a couple of different choices or endings and use your art gallery.
Unity is also a pretty user friendly game engine, but if you just wana do a simple visual novel then renpy is better because it is easier to use. I noticed you did a nice Velma erotic art, your game could be about famous cartoons getting fucked or something like that, I love those kinds of stuff. But at the end of the day you decide, and try to get paid also because you do nice art.
You can also do a comic or an art gallery then implement that into a game because game can be lots of work due to coding. But for a visual novel you can use renpy which is very user friendly and you don't have to code all that much. You can set your game up for a couple of different choices or endings and use your art gallery.
Unity is also a pretty user friendly game engine, but if you just wana do a simple visual novel then renpy is better because it is easier to use. I noticed you did a nice Velma erotic art, your game could be about famous cartoons getting fucked or something like that, I love those kinds of stuff. But at the end of the day you decide, and try to get paid also because you do nice art.
I just want to reiterate this point, because it is very sound advice (And I would also argue that it is extremely important, especially for a new game developer). MrSilverLust gave six good reasons to which I would add a few:
7) Making a smaller game makes it easier for you to complete the project and reduces the likelihood that you get overwhelmed and just abandon the game. As a rule, I would say that most new game devs just plan their first projects too big. It's easy to plan, and then get into it thinking it won't be too hard... Then halfway through the time you thought the project would take, you realize that you're 1/10th of the way there, and things go sideways from there. It happens a lot, so it's a good exercise to make something small, so that you can come face to face with reality without having to suffer drastic consequences.
8) Smaller games have reduced complexity, so you get to focus on what is core to the game. They also impose limitations, which help combat scope creep, which is a huge problem in game development.
(Scope creep is basically the: "Wouldn't this be nice to add?" phenomena. Basically, whenever someone has an idea, there are tons of things that would be nice to add to it. As more and more 'nice' things are added, you increase the amount of things that need to be developped, and eventually the project can double, triple or even decuple in size, making any and all planning that was made for it completely moot.)
In fact, if you make a project, I would say that it is imperative that you identify what it is that you want in your game and that you remain strict with that. Identify what is core to your game and stick with that vision. This way, you will stay on track and won't get lost in the complexity.
9) Smaller games are published faster, which means you aren't stuck should you decide that you want to do something else.
Your skills are going to evolve rapidly if you learn how to make games. There are tons of new things to learn every day, and you will get better, it is inevitable if you persevere. As you do so, your project might start to look too simplistic, or maybe the early renders might seem imperfect. By making a smaller game, you'll get to segment your work, so that you can make a better project instead of having a high variance of quality in the game that would require you to go back and fix the start.
And, if you just feel like doing something new, it will help you avoid the pitfall of 'oh I'll just make a project on the side', which is a deadly and insidious killer that can make your life a living hell as you struggle to juggle between your projects and have to spend a lot of energy to make little progress on each of them.