VN Ren'Py Ravager [v5.2.2] [4MinuteWarning]

[ScholarOfTheFirstSin]

Man... i thought we are gonna jerk off together not comparing who has a bigger pecker(morality)contest

 

[mrttao]

Not putting the pay-wall there would mean taking parts of the game away from current players. This would be much more likely to turn players off of the game than the current paywall.

the fuck? what does this even mean

 

[Enigmanic]

the fuck? what does this even mean

It means that those already supporting the dev don't get anything special.

 

[Danguy]

Cg's are godly but character sprites don't match them in quality at all. Did develop team lose their artists in the mid of making game?

 

[mrttao]

It means that those already supporting the dev don't get anything special.

Last I checked, those were donations for a dev who is allegedly committed to making a free product.
If it was just buying a game then all the supporters got ripped off. But it is not a normal product, those devs want to have their cake and eat it too. Just like the abuse triple A titles really.

 

[Jman9]

quite OT.

Discussion of whether supporting the monetisation model is okay is OT in the game's own thread?

the fuck? what does this even mean

It means there will be no further official, public free versions. AKA "they took the game away from us". Not everyone is a pirate.

Last I checked, those were donations for a dev who is allegedly committed to making a free product.

Actually, where does it say it's free? Itch and Subscribestar say nothing besides "support us and get access to ... if you liked what you saw".

If it was just buying a game then all the supporters got ripped off. But it is not a normal product, those devs want to have their cake and eat it too. Just like the abuse triple A titles really.

Nothing like the abuse. Both are essentially 'support the dev and help make the game better'. 4MW doesn't spend the cash on vacations and a bunch of excuses every six months, they spend the money to better the game.

Also, don't supporters still get their own builds? And a Steam key if they wish it? So they're basically buying an expensive 'support the developers' edition. Not a new nor exceptionally controversial concept.

I have to say that some supporters are getting ripped off due to the Ravager/Rampager thing, but this is Patreon's doing.

I'm sure that if 4MW could go back in time, the monetisation model would be different. But we are here, and I don't see the proposed alternatives being any better. Worse, actually.

 

[4MinuteWarning]

I'm not typically very active on here - I think you'd all rather I was working on Act V than camping forums - but this debate has been going on for a while, and I think it's worth at least sharing the information I have.

I made the decision to launch on Steam because I could not reasonably accomplish my ambitions without extra funding. I might have started as a hobbyist working by myself, but Ravager has grown considerably in scope since then, and I want to see it through to its conclusion. I talked about this a lot in

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. Since then, I've been able to make all the extra hires that I wanted to - but that also means a lot more mouths to feed.

The decision of where to make the split was made because:

• I consider myself to have a responsibility to old backers to keep the content they've supported free.
• I believe it's right to thank people who do support the game, by purchase or patronage, with unique content.
• I have faith that our asking price is reasonable, and that our free content is proof enough of our quality.

The idea of charging for something that you've spent a lot of resources making is relatively uncontroversial. People will naturally argue over where the best place to make the cut is - some say it should be earlier, some say it shouldn't exist at all - but I think that what we've done has struck the right balance between opposing forces. My first responsibility is to the project, and the people who work on it, so that we can actually finish this game (and then make many more).

I've avoided quoting or reacting to posts because I am very busy at the moment, and I can't afford to get drawn too far in, but hopefully it helps to have my perspective on things. Thank you to everyone who found Ravager here, and went on to support the project - I couldn't do it without you all, and I really do love doing it.

 

[mrttao]

Making money off of something you worked on makes perfect sense. It is not controversial.

Switching a licensing model after X years of development doesn't, even if it is technically legal (see oracle buying sun and close sourcing all their foss products) it will naturally induce a backlash. Especially among those who supported it during its time in a different license. Potentially a costly one (see libre office completely replacing openoffice)

This game specifically was never FOSS, but it did have a different licensing scheme / financial model (donate to help support the development of this here free game). Every person donating knew there was also a public version, can you really say that none of them cared? that none of them were donating specifically because there was a public version?

In regards to demo. A demo is when a complete software product is made, then a small portion is made freely available to "try before you buy".
A formerly free product suddenly changing their licensing model is not a demo. Even if it does coincidentally result in a "try before you buy" situation, the details differ.

As for launching on steam, that is a separate issue.
How is that making more money? I just checked and steam is a one time purchase of $15, while patreon costs $5/month subscription to get the latest version. Sounds far cheaper to me to get it on steam.
Steam's model relies on getting a constant stream of new customers, while patreon relies on retaining your patrons, supporters who donate to support you for month after month. There might be an initial lump sum from steam but it will taper off much more quickly.
Only way to get more on steam is via DLC glut. But that just makes for an even tougher sell as it alienates many customers.
And they are now customers, not patrons... customers are far more demanding than patrons.

I am sympathetic to the plight of the indie dev. It is hard work and you are underpaid.
But you really got to be very very careful in thinking through the long term consequences of fiddling with licensing / financial models.

 

[Jman9]

Switching a licensing model...

There never was one here.

This game specifically was never FOSS, but it did have a different licensing scheme / financial model (donate to help support the development of this here free game). Every person donating knew there was also a public version, can you really say that none of them cared? that none of them were donating specifically because there was a public version?

If they care about that, and care enough, they're free to stop donating. That is entirely in line with what donating means.

In regards to demo. A demo is when a complete software product is made, then a small portion is made freely available to "try before you buy".
A formerly free product suddenly changing their licensing model is not a demo. Even if it does coincidentally result in a "try before you buy" situation, the details differ.

Act V was never a 'free product'. The actual, 'demo' part never changed. Well, okay, it changed but for the better, Steam money being used to improve the 'demo'.

And people here were advocating for reducing the current amount of 'demo' by a factor of 4 or so. They thought having too much of the game available to try was somehow 'manipulative', whatever that actually means.

Let us be clear. What exactly are you arguing for here? The removal of Acts II-IV from the free version? The addition of Act V to the free version? The removal of the free version altogether? Something else?

Steam
...
How is that making more money?

Massively bigger market share in advertising the game. A convenient e-publishing platform that cuts down costs a lot.

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or is this genuinely the first time you've encountered Steam's advantages for everyone involved, including indie devs? Never wondered why Steam is swamped with shovelware and why there are so many indie devs around today? Steam is a gigantic enabler for the small developer.

Steam's model relies on getting a constant stream of new customers, while patreon relies on retaining your patrons, supporters who donate to support you for month after month. There might be an initial lump sum from steam but it will taper off much more quickly.

You're massively underestimating how much smaller Patreon is compared to Steam. Even a trickle by Steam standards is quite respectable for anyone who's not in the absolute top of Patreon.

Also, the game is not complete. So right now, the Steam version is basically a preorder/early access/in development/whatever kind of game. Yeah, potentially manipulative. But unlike the vast majority of companies who practice that, Ravager actually lets you sample pretty much everything that's ready for free. If 4MW actually manages to take all the Steam moneys and fails to produce Act V, then we can start talking about actual manipulation.

In any case, it's nearing a year on Steam, and 4MW looks to be satisfied with the money they're getting from there. Your theorycrafting (with zero actual numbers or analysis!) means little in comparison.

Only way to get more on steam is via DLC glut. But that just makes for an even tougher sell as it alienates many customers.

Which is why The_Searcher proposed adding "certain extras that doesn't affect the main game but offers extra value" aka DLC?

I hate DLC as much as the next grumpy gamer, but people are not as opposed to DLC these days as you'd think.

But you really got to be very very careful in thinking through the long term consequences of fiddling with licensing / financial models.

There is no licencing. There is only a cut-off point where they say: this is as far as we are able/willing to work for free/using donations. Nothing is removed that anybody ever had, or was promised to get.

 

[mrttao]

Massively bigger market share in advertising the game.

You are making a huge assumption, that steam will be advertising this game. Since when is steam advertising early access porn games?

 

[Dysphorika]

You are making a huge assumption, that steam will be advertising this game. Since when is steam advertising early access porn games?

Well, dunno about ads, but Steam has now an history of having porn games in early access from some time on their store...

 

[Jman9]

You are making a huge assumption, that steam will be advertising this game. Since when is steam advertising early access porn games?

Since games can be searched for on Steam. Steam does not advertise (well, not mainly) by throwing ads at you. Steam advertises by having a search feature. Well, that and discounts/sales.

 

[ScholarOfTheFirstSin]

I'm not typically very active on here - I think you'd all rather I was working on Act V than camping forums - but this debate has been going on for a while, and I think it's worth at least sharing the information I have.

I made the decision to launch on Steam because I could not reasonably accomplish my ambitions without extra funding. I might have started as a hobbyist working by myself, but Ravager has grown considerably in scope since then, and I want to see it through to its conclusion. I talked about this a lot in

You must be registered to see the links

. Since then, I've been able to make all the extra hires that I wanted to - but that also means a lot more mouths to feed.

The decision of where to make the split was made because:

• I consider myself to have a responsibility to old backers to keep the content they've supported free.
• I believe it's right to thank people who do support the game, by purchase or patronage, with unique content.
• I have faith that our asking price is reasonable, and that our free content is proof enough of our quality.

The idea of charging for something that you've spent a lot of resources making is relatively uncontroversial. People will naturally argue over where the best place to make the cut is - some say it should be earlier, some say it shouldn't exist at all - but I think that what we've done has struck the right balance between opposing forces. My first responsibility is to the project, and the people who work on it, so that we can actually finish this game (and then make many more).

I've avoided quoting or reacting to posts because I am very busy at the moment, and I can't afford to get drawn too far in, but hopefully it helps to have my perspective on things. Thank you to everyone who found Ravager here, and went on to support the project - I couldn't do it without you all, and I really do love doing it.

Okay Mr 4MinuteWarning please dont overwork yourself i completely understand and support whatever your choice for the development of the game
"sending you hugs and pat your head virtually telling that everything is going to be okay"

 

[Enigmanic]

You are making a huge assumption, that steam will be advertising this game. Since when is steam advertising early access porn games?

There is a section that shows suggestions based on "games you like".

 

[Tosk]

There is a section that shows suggestions based on "games you like".

Yup. If you have adult games enabled and have bought some then the algorithm will show you more.

 

[F1forhalp]

quite some old but still effective profiling mechanism and one reason why i don't use steam. or fb. or a number of others who this way make big bucks by trading -my- information without my consent. but, it works.

 

[OsklivyT]

Game:
Translation: Czech
ME:
As a citizen of Czech republik I salute you, its wery rare almost legendary to see games in my language.

 

[_Maou_]

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More great art news! I have reached out to Korwu to help us with some of our fate scenes, and she's just sent back her first set - detailing Naho's new life with the kobolds. What do you think? Would you like to see more of her work, supporting Lubbio?

Support the game!

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,

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or

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Join the discord!

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[Jman9]

What do you think? Would you like to see more of her work, supporting Lubbio?

Honestly, that is relatively similar to Lubbio's work. And Lubbio's art must be the single most complained about thing in Ravager by now?

Personally, I don't mind too much, but I'm not enthusiastic, either.

 

[Hullahopp]

Honestly, that is relatively similar to Lubbio's work. And Lubbio's art must be the single most complained about thing in Ravager by now?

Personally, I don't mind too much, but I'm not enthusiastic, either.

So at least the art is unified.
I don't like Lubbio's work. His art not bad, not ugly, he's a talented artist, but I have different tastes. Be my problem.