vogelbeest

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Also this is not VTM and though many rules might be same and based on same ideas and older/other material VTM used to come to their setting, it may not have led to same outcome for the devs of Rebirth or all be the same in the end as VTM rules. Just the fact VTM used the Judeo/Christian tradition and Cain as the first meant everyone that came later had to be weaker for example, here some of those who came later may well be stronger depending on who created them.
I figured VTM had pretty much the same logic there, Cain is the first, he made the second generation that on their turn made the third generation as servants. After Cain left the third generation killed the second and Cain cursed them resulting in some weaknesses including damage from sunlight. But however it evolves even when turned later it's still an important factor what generation is your maker ; a 10th generation elder can still be weaker then a 5th generation youngling regardless of age. In other words generation is a factor by itself and another is how long you've been a vampire.
 
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Warscared

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happy to see that my original hypothesis that that thing in the water might be the Callisto to one of the twins is taking hold!

vogelbeest there is also the fact on how much vitas the vampire is created, Callisto it seems only has made 2 so far if Arigon thesis is correct or 3 if mine is correct but that should add in for a next level power and growth spurt! So the MC is probably a crystal cannon situation easy to break but carrying quite a punch so to speak!

if that thing is indeed the Callisto to Erishk that will be the big battle for chap.4 leaving the reconciliation or the retrieval of Inanna with/or with eriskh for chapter 5!
 
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DA22

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I figured VTM had pretty much the same logic there, Cain is the first, he made the second generation that on their turn made the third generation as servants. After Cain left the third generation killed the second and Cain cursed them resulting in some weaknesses including damage from sunlight. But however it evolves even when turned later it's still an important factor what generation is your maker ; a 10th generation elder can still be weaker then a 5th generation youngling regardless of age. In other words generation is a factor by itself and another is how long you've been a vampire.
Well devs might have followed that line or they might have left in a loophole here. :p It seems to be true for the newer gens of vampires in game and follow the later rules for vampires as we know them now from Bram Stoker and later, but is it true for the firstborn and were they all created at the same time or are there a few generations of firstborn that were created over a few thousand years for example where the first might not have been the perfect version or even more fanciful options that also go further away from the mythologies?
 
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Arigon

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Yeweh or whatever was a sky fire god that arose after the historical enslavement of the Hebrew tribes to Babylonia aka Sumer several thousand years removed. Zoroastrian gave the Hebrews and later the Christians the concepts of judgement, heaven and hell. The original tribes had many deities just as all tribes did. Just saying.
 
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Warscared

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Yeweh or whatever was a sky fire god that arose after the historical enslavement of the Hebrew tribes to Babylonia aka Sumer several thousand years removed. Zoroastrian gave the Hebrews and later the Christians the concepts of judgement, heaven and hell. The original tribes had many deities just as all tribes did. Just saying.
judgement heaven and hell? does n´t that come from the Egyptian pantheon? also the single god part seems like an off shot of the akhenaton worship!

do remember that in exodus its stated that soldiers guarded the Hebrews... its not stated they where Hebrew soldiers (which should be easyer to state instead of wasting words...) so a kind of civil war thing during a succession crisis is the most likely scenario!

also the part about the parting of the red sea... it could more easily be translated as the batle of the reed forest... funny how comas can fuck up an entire interpretation!

also sun god considering that working metals was considered a kind of magic and that to smelt could be interpreted as working the "sun" because you know molten metals are like kind of the same colour and hot!

also the slag of bronze smelting normally turns green but it can also have a blueish tone (depends on the content of arsenic i believe but i can be wrong here, better ask a chemist) who is to say that metal working god and god of heaven could not be interpreted as the same? metal are just parts of the heaven that as fallen into earth as we all know (at least for the 1st iron utensils it was so...)

because fire god and sun god can be interchangeable! particularly for people who had serious deficits in terms of astrophysics! so depending on how people perceived the world a god of metals and a god of heavens fire and the sun could be easily be the same before more specialized types of metal working developed!
 

kajidiablo

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heh i played ep 2 1 release from the end of ep2 i just did the same with ep 3 being 1 update from the end of ep 3 ffs this wouldnt matter other then i need the last update for the next release and why i typically wait ffs
 

vogelbeest

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Well devs might have followed that line or they might have left in a loophole here. :p It seems to be true for the newer gens of vampires in game and follow the later rules for vampires as we know them now from Bram Stoker and later, but is it true for the firstborn and were they all created at the same time or are there a few generations of firstborn that were created over a few thousand years for example where the first might not have been the perfect version or even more fanciful options that also go further away from the mythologies?
Well, seems there's some evolution with the Nos (nox?) anyway, that's not a typical vampire Bram Stoker wrote about.
The fact MC can gain invisibility like the Nos do seems to imply his maker is closer the point the Nos split from the regular vampire, especially since "normal" vampires don't get this (or the claws for that matter)


Yeweh or whatever was a sky fire god that arose after the historical enslavement of the Hebrew tribes to Babylonia aka Sumer several thousand years removed. Zoroastrian gave the Hebrews and later the Christians the concepts of judgement, heaven and hell. The original tribes had many deities just as all tribes did. Just saying.
Yahweh was no sky fire god, he was a fire diety though but he was associated with vulcanic fire and appearing in some form of fire, burning bush, pillars of fire etc. He was also pictured as a storm god in other parts of the bible but the fire in those text was a result from thunder and lightning. However it's always troublesome anyway to categorise omnipotent entities ;)
First mention of Yahweh in the bible is in exodus hence the egyptian hebrew-slave era.
 

Arigon

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Well, seems there's some evolution with the Nos (nox?) anyway, that's not a typical vampire Bram Stoker wrote about.
The fact MC can gain invisibility like the Nos do seems to imply his maker is closer the point the Nos split from the regular vampire, especially since "normal" vampires don't get this (or the claws for that matter)




Yahweh was no sky fire god, he was a fire diety though but he was associated with vulcanic fire and appearing in some form of fire, burning bush, pillars of fire etc. He was also pictured as a storm god in other parts of the bible but the fire in those text was a result from thunder and lightning. However it's always troublesome anyway to categorise omnipotent entities ;)
First mention of Yahweh in the bible is in exodus hence the egyptian hebrew-slave era.
The Hebrews brought their new deity back from Babylon. They brought the trappings of judgement and heaven and the concept of not heaven from there as well. That is historical, not biblical fact.
Ahura Mazda is likely the model for "gOd". Certainly the concept of a good deity and bad deity came from the Sumer derived fire cults of Babylon.
 
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vogelbeest

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judgement heaven and hell? does n´t that come from the Egyptian pantheon? also the single god part seems like an off shot of the akhenaton worship!
That's the big problem, there's the thora, there's the dead sea scrolls, there's several cuneiforms from different regions in the middle east, there's the paintings on the walls of tombs/pyramids... We can date them pretty accurate but the fact a god is proven in writing does not mean he originates from the people that wrote about it. It's fairly common gods start out as agricultural (fertility) gods but with evolving societies portfolio's like trade, crafts and ultimately war gets added.
Cultures having interaction means they're likely to accept eachothers idea's and even gods.
Take note in the fact the thora pretty much is the story of the hebrews that have been enslaved by the assyrians, the babylonians and the egyptians and it's a people of nomads like many others in the middle east during those era's and it's safe to assume besides getting their idea's from a wide area they also spread them...
We can prove Marduk is the eldest (mesopotamian) god, Inanna is the eldest named god (Sumer) in written history, but we can't know the gods before that if there's no written proof available.
 
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Arigon

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Inanna and Ereshkigal are twins. Ereshkigal is the elder. They doubtless share some traits. Invisibility may well be one of them as Calisto, if I am correct, was in an invisible Warbear form when she hit Sharon in the woods. Scroll back a couple hundred pages for that discussion. Claws, Vicious Power, and Bear shape would be a consequence (mythically) of Hera's curse on Calisto for loving on Zeus.
 
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vogelbeest

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Inanna and Ereshkigal are twins. Ereshkigal is the elder.
In this game you mean? (in mythology Erishkigal is the elder sister and Inanna and her brother Utu are twins)
Calisto in mythology is known to be able to change into a bear or was turned into one as punishment depending on the version.
However bearform is not a common vampire trait? Is this speculative?

Edit : read through some of these posts, think having claws and superstrength would already be sufficient to link to a bear without the need for a hairy tranformation. There's her name and the several mythological stories about her already and in all of those she ends up between the stars...
(one of them it's her son that kills her though... in other versions it's either Hera or Artemis)
 
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-L-L-MJ-

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For 3 a lot of the speculation is based on the Callisto myths from Greek mythology and Inanna and Esky are from Summerian mythology which also was the basis of Tiamat if that name was more as a red herring. It seems this game has based it's creation myth and some of the important figures on mythology. Both Virgil and Malia/(Casiopeia?) may also have a role there or taken somewhere from it. Virgil is a famous poet and also used by Dante in his work Inferno, though no idea how that may feature in this game immediately, though death is the domain of Eshky and could be seen as Hell.
I know and am familiar with a lot of myths/legends, I love it. The problem with this is that aside from some names used it is all speculation and some of it seem to really go off the deep end. If they wanted to play into this more from a story perspective there could have been so many ways and times to drop hints about this and work it into the story. It just seems the devs love to keep it open ended and let individuals draw their own conclusions without any more basis or story telling so far it also seems really drawn out but this might have to do with the monthly updates. Fact is, it's too early to draw conclusions especially with some of the theories going around/spewing about.. It's all well and somewhat interesting to see these subjective points of view.. But objectively the game really doesn't explain/go into details much by itself. it's all conjecture.
 

Arigon

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In this game you mean? (in mythology Erishkigal is the elder sister and Inanna and her brother Utu are twins)
Calisto in mythology is known to be able to change into a bear or was turned into one as punishment depending on the version.
However bearform is not a common vampire trait? Is this speculative?

Edit : read through some of these posts, think having claws and superstrength would already be sufficient to link to a bear without the need for a hairy tranformation. There's her name and the several mythological stories about her already and in all of those she ends up between the stars...
(one of them it's her son that kills her though... in other versions it's either Hera or Artemis)
Scroll back-
Yes they are sisters but referred to in "discussions" as twins. Ereshkigal is elder. This has not been changed nor enlightened by your post.

Bearform is at this point speculative-sort of. Calisto was cursed with bear form and her first child attempted to kill her, while hunting bears. This was Hera's doing for Calisto and Zeus being lovers. The child was made Ursa Minor, Calisto Ursa Major.

VtM does not have a bear form. It has the wolf battle form of the Gangrel. It has the 2 warforms of the Tzimisce, one winged, one not. The game is not a direct derivative of VtM.

Look back to Markus taking note, at Marcius' court, when the claws come out and defend Sharon. He clearly is struck by them.

For a far more detailed discussion than I can really repeat in this post I do recommend you scroll back as the whole bear thing as well as a large amount of discussion of Ereshkigal and Inanna are discussed.

There will very likely BE a hairy transformation, and perhaps the look we get in this last update of Calisto hints of the more bestial nature.

Peace
 
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Arigon

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Jehovah or Yahweh apparently is an equivalent to Enki (who happens to be Innanna's father) and yeah this text suggest Yahweh was the first god that promoted monotheism (or atleast his followers did) :

In antiquity, south-eastern Canaan was a very important centre for copper smelting. While it is likely that there existed a patron deity of metallurgy, the identity of the Canaanite god of smelting remains unknown. Although some biblical writings suggest a south Canaanite origin of Yahweh, no details are provided concerning his worship prior to him becoming the god of Israel. This study explores whether Yahweh was formerly the Canaanite god of metallurgy. The following observations corroborate this hypothesis: (1) Yahweh was worshiped by the Edomites, and especially by the Kenites, a small tribe regarded as the Canaanite smelters; (2) the Israelite cult of Yahweh was associated with copper and with a bronze serpent, a typical symbol of metallurgy; (3) the melting of copper is considered in Exodus 4 as the specific sign of Yahweh; (4) a parallel exists between Yahweh and the god of metallurgy worshiped in Egypt (Ptah), Mesopotamia (Ea/Enki) and Elam (Napir), all of them being a mysterious lonely deity; (5) fighting the (other) gods is common to Yahwism and to ancient metallurgical traditions. These data suggest that, before becoming publicly worshipped in Israel, Yahweh was formerly the god of the Canaanite guild of metallurgists.
Strictly speaking, the monotheistic nature came from Zoroastrianism. This is from modernish day Persia/Iraq/Iran.
This is also where duality of good and evil came from. These both would have been imported following the defeat and enslavement of the Hebrew tribes.

Fortunately- Rebirth has ZERO to do with anything remotely to do with this.

What is does have to do with is this.

Ancient Sumer had more than 10,000 gods and goddesses.
Many were localized. Many were of this and that. Many were duplicated.
The myth most important, and not being spewed as I think I saw someone say is this-

Inanna is our Vision Girl.
Ereshkigal is the Nos Vision Girl.
They appear as twins, which is why discussions *not here, and it is my bad for introducing that here, refer to them as such.

To recap how Inanna, the younger sister of Ereshkigal came to be murdered *temporarily, and then raised up, the story goes like this-Wolkstein and Kramer deciphered Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient clay texts and a whole lot more, all rounded up into this and other stories that the Sumerian deities evolved into-Egyptian, Numidian, Greek, Hindi, etc

Inanna is dressed in her finest clothes and wears the crown of heaven on her head, beads around her neck, her breastplate, golden ring and carries her scepter, the rod of power. Just before she enters the underworld, she gives Ninsubur (female) (Inanna's ancient most trusted servant) instructions on how to come to her aid should she fail to return when expected.

Upon her arrival at the gates of the underworld Inanna knocks loudly and demands entrance. Neti (male), *a close ally/childe/who knows what of Ereshkigal (Virgil maybe lol)the chief gatekeeper, asks who she is and, when Inanna answers, “I am Inanna, Queen of Heaven”, Neti asks why she would wish entrance to the land “from which no traveler returns.” Inanna answers:


Inanna says "Because of my older sister, Ereshkigal Her husband, Gugalanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died I have come to witness the funeral rites."
Neti then tells her to stay where she is while he goes to speak with Ereshkigal.

When Neti delivers the news to Ereshkigal that Inanna is at the gates, the Queen of the Dead responds in a way which seems strange: “She slapped her thigh and bit her lip. She took the matter into her heart and dwelt on it”. She does not seem pleased to hear the news that her sister is at the gate and her displeasure is further evidenced when she tells Neti to bolt the seven gates of the underworld against Inanna and then let her in, one gate at a time, requiring her to remove one of her royal garments at each gate. Neti does as he is commanded and, gate by gate, Inanna is stripped of her crown, beads, ring, sceptre, even her clothing and, when she asks the meaning of this indignity, is told by Neti: (note that I have told you guys this story before, of how Inanna was basically stripped of all her protections by the time she came before Ereshkigal) 7 gates, 7 articles of power taken from her
Neti says "Quiet, Inanna, the ways of the underworld are perfect
They may not be questioned."
I have some ideas about Neti I really do not think he is Virgil, but damn if he is, we are all in trouble.

(It is very possible that Gugalanna was murdered by Ereshkigal, and she does not wish her sister to mettle in her affairs) Also, Ereshkigal is or was reportedly jealous of Inanna who was goddess over a ton of things, and was praised for her beauty etc, while Ereshkigal is the goddess of the Underworld/Dead...

Inanna enters the throne room of Ereshkigal “naked and bowed low” and begins walking toward the throne when: (this explains why she is naked in our visions)


The annuna, "the judges of the underworld", surrounded her
They passed judgment against her.
Then Ereshkigal fastened on Inanna the eye of death upon her (eyes seem to be a central theme here with the MC and Sharon and Calisto)
She spoke against her the word of wrath (sorcery and/or thaumaturgy)
She uttered against her the cry of guilt (more sorcery and/or thaumaturgy)
She struck her. (hugely powerful fists vicious power)
Inanna was turned into a corpse (toast)
A piece of rotting meat *to make a point
And was hung from a hook on the wall (they make something of a big deal in the text about the construct techniques of Walls, as the land of the dead was a fortress with walls not unlike ancient Uruk or Jericho, approximately 13,500 to 15,000 years ago) (this comfortably matches the age of Inanna and why she would be mythical to Ancient Grecian people some 9-10 thousand years before Calisto's time...)

In the rescue legend, Enki, father of both Ereshkigal and Inanna, sent two Galla which are sexless beings (not sure why that is so important, but it is what it is) and they cause Ereshkigal tremendous pain-

"The poem continues to describe the queen (Ereskigal) experiencing the pains of labor.(Caused by the Galla- pain in the stomach sound familiar to you guys???) The Galla sympathize with the queen's pains (release her from the pain) and she, in gratitude, offers them whatever gift they ask for. As ordered by Enki, the galla respond, “We wish only the corpse that hangs from the hook on the wall” and Ereshkigal (being outplayed) gives it to them. The galla revive Inanna with the food and water of life (a lot of myth and legend refer to the body and blood as the food and water of life, even the big 3 Med religions) and she rises from the dead.

Of course this could all be allegory for a different circumstance, but taken at face value, two relatively lower beings (who are still godlike as the Sumerians had 10,000 gods and goddesses) to raise her up from the prison she is locked away in, with a hook through her, trapping her to the wall.

I posted this before, but thought I should "re-ground" the conversation back into the mythos we need to consider.

Now, Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Latin-Greek regurgitated, and others all descend from. Many of the gods and goddesses are recycled.

Important to our story is that Greek which is where Calisto is from, had really totally no remembrance of the origins of their own stories and myths. Calisto was most likely the high priestess for Hera, as all the others were young and virginal, serving one year terms.

Was the Feral Nos Ophalia? Not sure, but I am staking some scrotal hair on it.

Peace
 

yltohawk

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Well devs might have followed that line or they might have left in a loophole here. :p It seems to be true for the newer gens of vampires in game and follow the later rules for vampires as we know them now from Bram Stoker and later, but is it true for the firstborn and were they all created at the same time or are there a few generations of firstborn that were created over a few thousand years for example where the first might not have been the perfect version or even more fanciful options that also go further away from the mythologies?
As an act of breeding livestock the older the sire the better the results. And I see it no different here as well.
Traits and genetic strengths are made more Viable and pronounced for transferring to one's offspring as one ages. The notion of firstborn would in fact in truth hold some validity If multiple offspring were produced over a short period of time diluting the bloodline. The fact that as far as is known only two progeny have been raised from Calisto. Being spread out over the amount of time that we are talking about here I see no loss of efficacy in the MC's blood strength. If anything I see him as more of a Champion because of Calisto's age and celibacy.
 
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DA22

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Well, seems there's some evolution with the Nos (nox?) anyway, that's not a typical vampire Bram Stoker wrote about.
The fact MC can gain invisibility like the Nos do seems to imply his maker is closer the point the Nos split from the regular vampire, especially since "normal" vampires don't get this (or the claws for that matter)




Yahweh was no sky fire god, he was a fire diety though but he was associated with vulcanic fire and appearing in some form of fire, burning bush, pillars of fire etc. He was also pictured as a storm god in other parts of the bible but the fire in those text was a result from thunder and lightning. However it's always troublesome anyway to categorise omnipotent entities ;)
First mention of Yahweh in the bible is in exodus hence the egyptian hebrew-slave era.
Like I said Bram Stoker and later, including Anne Rice, VTM and its source material, Hollywood the last 100 years and so on. Vampires as we now know them in for example VTM have little to do with the old Romanian folklore, so many influences have gone into that by now a whole new creature has come in literature existence that either has a demonic heritage or more a curse or mutation. :p

Well time to go for a more lengthy diatribe and a fanciful tale full of grasping straws and assumptions of what MC's role could be if not the straw that will break the camels back. Remember this is full tinfoiling and depends that a few things in game are not red herrings and devs have been way more liberal with some old myths and rules as many assume.

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DA22

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As an act of breeding livestock the older the sire the better the results. And I see it no different here as well.
Traits and genetic strengths are made more Viable and pronounced for transferring to one's offspring as one ages. The notion of firstborn would in fact in truth hold some validity If multiple offspring were produced over a short period of time diluting the bloodline. The fact that as far as is known only two progeny have been raised from Calisto. Being spread out over the amount of time that we are talking about here I see no loss of efficacy in the MC's blood strength. If anything I see him as more of a Champion because of Calisto's age and celibacy.
If you read my way too long text below in second spoiler there is another question here with vamps having been created for specific purpose. There is no reason for example to assume those creators were content with first creations and later on did not make way stronger creations as just one option. :p MC is a later vamp that is not created by the creators himself, so for him the normal rules would go. For any of the firstborn though that could be a very different case especially if we assume that according to normal rules Enki would either be childe of Tiamat or Apsu and not both. Putting the whole idea of the Pantheon on its head anyway and them having two sires if normal rules would apply. :ROFLMAO: Which might actually be correct within the setting of this game, with various vamps that created those myths not being directly related at all.
 
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yltohawk

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If you read my way too long text below in second spoiler there is another question here with vamps having been created for specific purpose. There is no reason for example to assume those creators were content with first creations and later on did not make way stronger creations as just one option. :p MC is a later vamp that is not created by the creators himself, so for him the normal rules would go. For any of the firstborn though that could be a very different case especially if we assume that according to normal rules Enki would either be childe of Tiamat or Apsu and not both. Putting the whole idea of the Pantheon on its head anyway and them having two sires if normal rules would apply. :ROFLMAO: Which might actually be correct within the setting of this game, with various vamps that created those myths not being directly related at all.
What I am saying is that a Vamp gains prowess over time in both strength and Talents and as long as the blood is not diluted the offspring would expect to enjoy the enhancement as well, to a degree.
 
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