VN Ren'Py Rebirth [Ep.5 Update 13] [LikesBlondes]

[Mr_Sel]

I'm theoryzing about the bloodline, since MC can turn invisible like the nos, I'm speculating that Artemis's bloodline has some nos in it.

Well, if we're keeping some VTM reference - she can be a Malkavian, or at least the equivalent in this world. Invisibility - check, sending strange visions and nightmares - check, Auspex - check.

And no, Malks don't need to be visibly, obviously insane.

 

[c3p0]

Assuming Artemis is vision girl and thus a vampire.

Artemis is goddess of the hunt.

Vampire are creatures of the night and they certainly hunt. Therefore I would say, this point is the one I say it fulfilled.

Artemis is a symbol of chastity. Being chaste is not only about sexual activity. It is also about not having any desire for sexual activity, which is clearly written in Artemis' character.

Recall from my memory, so can be wrong per se, I don't seen here in (yet) in any form of sexual activity. She is for me trying to cozen the MC to some plan of her. In regard to

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the virginity aspect of her is also describe to be strong and in control.
Being strong, she is, as well as in control.
But this is only my interpretation.

Artemis is associated with caring for mothers, assisting them with childbirth.

Yes, but which aspect contradict this? If she is a clan founder, woudn't that be the stroking image for a mother?

Artemis is a lifelong virgin, by her own choice.

Again, which aspect contradict this? Virginity is only a biological aspect. From what I read from

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I don't see that it must mean more than the biological aspect. And this condition could be fulfilled or not, I don't have evidence for either. And I don't give Virgils "everyone has fucked everyone someday" comment much credit.

Artemis does not seek the favour or company of men, or male gods.

Again, which aspect contradict this? She only haunt us in here dream and I don't see them as seeking favour from us.

 

[whichone]

Vampire are creatures of the night and they certainly hunt. Therefore I would say, this point is the one I say it fulfilled.
Again, whichaspect contradict this? She only haunt us in here dream and I don't see them as seeking favour from us.

They are all hunters, so by this logic they are all Artemis.
No, quite obviously they are not.

Recall from my memory, so can be wrong per se, I don't seen here in (yet) in any form of sexual activity.

As already said, many times, being chaste does not require sexual activity.
Appearing in next to no clothing is, by very definition of the word, not chaste behaviour.

She is for me trying to cozen the MC to some plan of her.

Yes. By appearing as a sexualised being, to make him resist her less, as is commonly found in most vampire canon.
Loads of vampires are sexually attractive to their victims.
Artemis does not make herself sexually attractive, for anyone.

Yes, but which aspect contradict this? If she is a clan founder, woudn't that be the stroking image for a mother?

Artemis is not a Mother.
At no point has anyone said that she was.
What she does, is assist mothers during pregnancy and childbirth.
I didn't say this aspect was contradicted.
I said it does not exist, with vision girl. There is no sign or reference to her doing this, at all.

If you are now saying that vision girl is, effectively, the mother of the clan, then this is simply another reason why she is not Artemis.

Again, whichaspect contradict this? Virginity is only a biological aspect. From what I read from

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I don't see that it must mean more than the biological aspect. And this condition could be fulfilled or not, I don't have evidence for either. And I don't give Virgils "everyone has fucked everyone someday" much credit.

See above.
It is not contradicted.
It is not present.
It is not present and nothing has suggested that it ever will be, then it's a bit ridiculous to rely on it.
Had it been stated that she wished for & was granted virginity, from Zeus, as a child then you would have a valid claim.
The fact that it has not been, means that you currently do not.

Again, which aspect contradict this? She only haunt us in here dream and I don't see them as seeking favour from us.

The fact that she has returned to see us again is more than enough to say she is seeking our company when she appears to us.
Something Artemis would never, ever do in this manner.
When Artemis appeared to men, she had something to say, or do. Often involving kicking their asses.
Not seductively rolling around in next to no clothing being, quite specifically, unchaste.

Perhaps it would be clearer if I said:
"No character attributes from Artemis' long documented history are specifically present & one is directly contradicted."
With the lack of all known attributes being present and the contradiction of one major one, it's pretty clear that we cannot claim that she is Artemis, with any validity.
Nothing at all supports this conclusion, other than a 3rd party who shares a name.

 

[whichone]

so if not Artemis who would it be? Aphrodite Minerva Athena?

i spread some love around for the civility of this debate, its something rare that should always be rewarded!

Peitho.
The literal physical embodiment of seduction and persuasion.
They both share these 2 traits, which instantly puts Peitho ahead of Artemis who shares zero.

 

[c3p0]

They are all hunters, so by this logic they are all Artemis.
No, quite obviously they are not.

No, but your own post contradict you. Vampire are hunters. Without a hunt, their is no meal for them and without a meal the cease to exist. So, if the are hunter, so is vision girl and therefore, your statement is wrong.

Artemis is goddess of the hunt.
Artemis is a symbol of chastity. Being chaste is not only about sexual activity. It is also about not having any desire for sexual activity, which is clearly written in Artemis' character.
Artemis is associated with caring for mothers, assisting them with childbirth.
Artemis is a lifelong virgin, by her own choice.
Artemis does not seek the favour or company of men, or male gods.

None of these are known traits of vision girl.

Artemis is not a Mother.
At no point has anyone said that she was.
What she does, is assist mothers during pregnancy and childbirth.
I didn't say this aspect was contradicted.
I said it does not exist, with vision girl. There is no sign or reference to her doing this, at all.

If you are now saying that vision girl is, effectively, the mother of the clan, then this is simply another reason why she is not Artemis.

Childbirth for a vampir is, figuratively, I tend to believe, to embrace a human. So, figuratively, she had help childbirth a lot as a clan founder.
Also, again according to

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, she is seen as a mother goddess, this itself would be in line with be a mother of a clan.

As already said, many times, being chaste does not require sexual activity.
Appearing in next to no clothing is, by very definition of the word, not chaste behaviour.

As already said, many times, being chaste does not require sexual activity.
Appearing in next to no clothing is, by very definition of the word, not chaste behaviour.
Yes. By appearing as a sexualised being, to make him resist her less, as is commonly found in most vampire canon.
Loads of vampires are sexually attractive to their victims.

I agree with that about chaste.

So it leaves us with:

• Artemis is goddess of the hunt.
  • confirmed, right
• Artemis is a symbol of chastity.
  • disproofed, false
• Artemis is associated with caring for mothers, assisting them with childbirth.
  • I say yes, you no. Thus uncertain in my eyes.
• Artemis is a lifelong virgin, by her own choice.
  • No edivance she can't be.
• Artemis does not seek the favour or company of men, or male gods.
  • I say no and I think you would say yes. Thus uncertain in my eyes.

I would say 1 confirmend, 1 disproofed, 2 uncertained and 1 unkown.
Based on this your whole argumentation is vision girl is not chaste, thus can't be Artemis. Yet, this is only 1 point out of your 5.

We will perhaps, most likely at the end of the story, see, who vision girl is. As I don't tend to bet my nuts and I've already have one bet running here, I don't tend to open another one.

But for the record, I tend to see that I've lost my first bet. Not technical level, but on a personal one.

 

[whichone]

No, but your own post contradict you. Vampire are hunters. Without a hunt, their is no meal for them and without a meal the cease to exist. So, if the are hunter, so is vision girl and therefore, your statement is wrong.

No it does not. It neither contradicts me, or is wrong.

Being a hunter, from a species of hunters, does not make her Goddess of the hunt.
Not by any stretch.
My Uncle Jim is a hunter, it doesn't make him Artemis, either. Same as it doesn't for any other vamp.
You cannot possibly be serious with this?

Childbirth for a vampir is, figuratively, I tend to believe, to embrace a human. So, figuratively, she had help childbirth a lot as a clan founder.
Also, again according to

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, she is seen as a mother goddess, this itself would be in line with be a mother of a clan.

I don't understand the fixation on childbirth?
Artemis is not a mother.
She is a lifelong virgin.
The very fact that you say vision girl is mother of the clan, means she is not & cannot possibly be Artemis.
As I have already told you, she is a goddess associated with childbirth, because she helped mothers during this time.
She never had a child.

So it leaves us with:

• Artemis is goddess of the hunt. confirmed, right

No, not at all confirmed right.
When has it ever been stated in the game that this hunter, is Goddess of the hunt?
Never.
She's a hunter. Fine.
So's every other vampire.
Zero evidence to corroborate her being Artemis, simply because she hunts humans for food.

• Artemis is associated with caring for mothers, assisting them with childbirth.
  • I say yes, you no. Thus uncertain in my eyes.

It is not evidence for her being Artemis, if it does not exist.
It does not exist.
If it is specifically stated in the game, then fine.
It is not.

• Artemis is a lifelong virgin, by her own choice.
  • No edivance she can't be.

As above.
It is not evidence for her being Artemis, if it does not exist.
It does not exist in the game.

• Artemis does not seek the favour or company of men, or male gods.
  • I say no and I think you would say yes. Thus uncertain in my eyes.

Again, the only times we have seen the vision girl, she came to us, she saught our company. We did not invite her, she invited herself.
Artemis does not seek the company of men. This is well established.

I would say 1 confirmend, 1 disproofed, 2 uncertained and 1 unkown.

Not chaste, unquestionably.
Not Goddess of the Hunt, because zero evidence supports or claims this. Therefore illogical to assume that she is.
Not caring for pregnant mothers & assisting with childbirth, because zero evidence supports or claims this. Therefore illogical to assume that she is.
Not lifelong virgin, because zero evidence supports or claims this. Therefore illogical to assume that she is.
Does seek the company of men.

That's 5/5 & we can now add the fact that you view her as "clan mother" & Artemis is categorically not a mother (metaphorically, or otherwise).
So 6/6 against.

There is nothing in the game that corroborates this suggestion.
There is plenty in literature that disputes this suggestion.
There is even some in literature which directly contradicts this suggestion.

 

[c3p0]

Not chaste, unquestionably.
Not Goddess of the Hunt, because zero evidence supports or claims this. Therefore illogical to assume that she is.
Not caring for pregnant mothers & assisting with childbirth, because zero evidence supports or claims this. Therefore illogical to assume that she is.
Not lifelong virgin, because zero evidence supports or claims this. Therefore illogical to assume that she is.
Does seek the company of men.

That's 5/5.

Your view, mate.
I see it otherwise and as I said previously, I don't think we will see it the same. One of the few things I've learn was that you can't enforce your opinion (or even facts accepts facts) on the other site, if they don't want.

 

[whichone]

Your view, mate.
I see it otherwise and as I said previously, I don't think we will see it the same. One of the few things I've learn was that you can't enforce your opinion (or even facts accepts facts) on the other site, if they don't want.

This is not about opinions.
It is about one person imagining something, with zero evidence to corroborate it.
Then someone else pointing this fallacy out & providing facts that prove the imagined conclusion incorrect.

Artemis' character is well established and well documented and there is absolutely nothing in the game which suggests they share any attributes.
There is 1 massive attribute which is directly contradicted.

If evidence does come to the game that corroborates the suggestion, then it will bear more weight.
None is currently there, so it has no weight.
There is evidence to the contrary, so it has minus weight.
It is, therefore, a fact, not an opinion, that it is illogical to assume that she is Artemis.

 

[ucu32167]

This is not about opinions.
It is about one person imagining something, with zero evidence to corroborate it.
Then someone else pointing this fallacy out & providing facts that prove the imagined conclusion incorrect.

Artemis' character is well established and well documented and there is absolutely nothing in the game which suggests they share any attributes.
There is 1 massive attribute which is directly contradicted.

If evidence does come to the game that corroborates the suggestion, then it will bear more weight.
None is currently there, so it has no weight.
It is, therefore, a fact, not an opinion, that it is illogical to assume that she is Artemis.

No need to get agressive. You have one opinion. Other have other opinions. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[whichone]

No need to get agressive. You have one opinion. Other have other opinions. Let's just leave it at that.

There is nothing aggressive.
I know 3po & do not have a problem with him.
I'm simply pointing out that the suggestion, a product of someone's imagination, has no evidence to support it, so it cannot be claimed as such with any validity.
I do not have an opinion about Artemis' character. The facts are there & they, quite simply, do not match with the suggestion.

I am not saying that they cannot match, future updates can establish them, still.
I am merely saying that they do not match & that one, a major one, is directly contradicted.

It is a fact that the game has never, not once, referred to her as Goddess of the Hunt. Her being a member of a species who hunt their prey for food, does not automatically qualify her for this title, either. Artemis is specifically known for hunting animals, not humans.
It is a fact that she is not displaying chaste behaviour. Quite the opposite.
It is a fact that the game has never stated, or suggested, that she is a lifelong virgin.
It is a fact that the game has never stated, or suggested, that she is a caring individual who tends to mothers during their labour.
It is also a fact that she has saught the company of men. The MC.
Based on these facts, it is (currently) an unsubstantiated, illogical assumption.
There is nothing wrong with me pointing this out & there is nothing offensive in the way I have done it.

 

[ucu32167]

There is nothing aggressive.
I know 3po well & do not have a problem with him.
I'm simply pointing out that the suggestion, a product of someone's imagination, has no evidence to support it, so it cannot be claimed as such with any validity.
I do not have an opinion about Artemis' character. The facts are there & they, quite simply, do not match with the suggestion.

I am not saying that they cannot match, future updates can establish them, still.
I am merely saying that they do not match & that one, a major one, is directly contradicted.

It is a fact that the game has never, not once, referred to her as Goddess of the Hunt. Her being a member of a species who hunt their prey for food, does not automatically qualify her for this title, either. Artemis is specifically known for hunting animals, not humans.
It is a fact that she is not displaying chaste behaviour. Quite the opposite.
It is a fact that the game has never stated, or suggested, that she is a lifelong virgin.
It is a fact that the game has never stated, or suggested, that she is a caring individual who tends to mothers during their labour.
It is also a fact that she has saught the company of men. The MC.
Based on these facts, it is (currently) an unsubstantiated, illogical assumption.
There is nothing wrong with me pointing this out & there is nothing offensive in the way I have done it.

She is not displaying unchaste behavior either.
Because she appears naked? Doesn't mean she's unchaste. And who knows how "chaste" might be interpreted in vampire trems.
After all marriage is a blood bond for them, not a sexual commitment. Sharon establishes that.

 

[whichone]

She is not displaying unchaste behavior either.
Because she appears naked? Doesn't mean she's unchaste. And who knows how "chaste" might be interpreted in vampire trems.
After all marriage is a blood bond for them, not a sexual commitment. Sharon establishes that.

Yes. Yes it does. Go and look at the meaning of the word.
Appearing nude in front of an unknown man is the very defintion of unchaste & is something that Artemis would never, ever have done.
Even when vision girl appears not naked, she is still not dressed in a chaste manner & Artemis would never appear dressed like that, either.
It does not matter a jot how it is interpreted in vampire terms.
The stories about Artemis were written by men. So the definition of the word is man's, as per the dictionary.

 

[Warscared]

Yes. Yes it does. Go and look at the meaning of the word.
Appearing nude in front of an unknown man is the very defintion of unchaste & is something that Artemis would never, ever have done.
Even when vision girl appears not naked, she is still not dressed in a chaste manner & Artemis would never appear dressed like that, either.
It does not matter a jot how it is interpreted in vampire terms.
The stories about Artemis were written by men. So the definition of the word is man's, as per the dictionary.

technically the virgin girls in Sparta walked around naked because they had no man... so your perception of chastity is only applicable to your culture!

even in the Anglo Saxon culture as most Nordic cultures women only tied and covered their hair/head after loosing their maidenhead and where married, in today culture or the judeo-christian-islamic culture free hair and not covering their heads is a sign of unchaste while before it was a sign of not having a man and therefore untouched aka as being chaste!

 

[whichone]

technically the virgin girls in Sparta walked around naked because they had no man... so your perception of chastity is only applicable to your culture!

even in the Anglo Saxon culture as most Nordic cultures women only tied and covered their hair/head after loosing their maidenhead and where married, in today culture or the judeo-christian-islamic culture free hair and not covering their heads is a sign of unchaste while before it was a sign of not having a man and therefore untouched aka as being chaste!

Artemis is a lifelong virgin.
She had 10 wishes granted to her, as a child, by Zeus. That was her first. Top of her list.
She is the symbol of chastity in Greek mythology.
Chastity, in Greek times, meant the same as does now.
Not having any sexual desire or intent, not having sexual intercourse & you don't think that not inspiring sexual arousal in others follows suit? Vision girl is using her sexuality, which is a well established vamp trope & is distinctly unchaste, by definition.
Vampires are not supposed to be associated with purity.

 

[Arigon]

whichone
Dude,
Which part of this being vampires are you missing? Artemis does not have to be chaste, she does not have to have any traits at all which are attributed the deity 4,000 years ago, in the modern nights. Things change.
As discussed previously which you chose to ignore, Artemis is not my idea, it was a collaborative idea which we used to explain RELATIONSHIP's not character traits. She could screw all the Spartans and still be Artemis. Artemis of legend was chaste. Embracing children as a vampire does not violate this, and that is how she reproduces. Her form she shows is swimming in blood. Artemis, along with her brother are vengeful gods. There are several examples where attempts to rape Artemis were repaid by excessive bloodshed to repay it. Vampires dude. Not GODS. We are simply trying to establish a lineage here. If you do not like the thread and it's direction of discussion, you are free to go elsewhere and spout how stupid we all are for trying to establish the relationships of the vampires, NOT examine their character traits. No vampire is chaste. All of them violate their food supply. All are murderers at one point or another. All of them take forcibly what they want. Even vampires on a path of purity break this from time to time because of the beast.
Your insistence on trying to attribute true divinity in Artemis the vampire is not only pointless but ignorant. Vampires are monsters. WE are monsters. Get with that program.
I continue to see you ridicule the folks on here for what we have long ago theorized and established, and will long after you are gone. Kindly contribute meaningfully to the thread or have the decency to not try and tear others down.
Peace.

 

[BigStuffedTiger]

No it would not. How could it possibly? His story has never made the claim.
Showing why the claim is not possibly correct does not affect the story.
Only the suggestion that she is Artemis is affected by this. The story does not suggest this at any point.

The only thing that is wrong, when you follow established traits of Artemis' character, is the suggestion that she is the vision girl. Because she does not share a single character attribute.
It's therefore totally illogical to suggest that she is.

Artemis is goddess of the hunt.
Artemis is a symbol of chastity. Being chaste is not only about sexual activity. It is also about not having any desire for sexual activity, which is clearly written in Artemis' character.
Artemis is associated with caring for mothers, assisting them with childbirth.
Artemis is a lifelong virgin, by her own choice.
Artemis does not seek the favour or company of men, or male gods.

None of these are known traits of vision girl.

Your list is more reflective of the modern concept of Artemis, as her conceptualization and worship in ancient times was by no means uniform or monolithic, but instead varied from century to century and city to city. It also assumes that the actual vampire must match the image built up by her PR, which is all too often untrue for powerful humans, and is even much less likely to be true for powerful vampires.

In 6th to 8th century BCE Sparta for example. male priests of Artemis whipped themselves bloody to show their devotion while celibate female priestesses danced in a hypersexualized manner. Younger boys had to dodge a gauntlet of whips too in order to obtain cheeses during festivals. At times even human sacrifices were performed. Artemis, particularly the Spartan version of Artemis, aka Artemis Orthia, was a much harsher, bloodier goddess than you appear to recognize. Even Cicero commented on how the bloody, often deadly spectacle of her worship in Sparta drew tourists during Roman times. To me that sounds like very easy feeding for a smart, enterprising vampire. Get the cattle to voluntarily offer up their blood in regular worship rituals, and if some die, it only increases the cult's notoriety. And if a vampire is protective of the virginity of its female servants that is a good way to get their fathers to hand them over on a silver platter as it would in no way damage their marriage prospects while encouraging them to dance in a sexually provocative manner would draw in the men and encourage them to offer up their blood.

You've got to think like a long-lived predator that preys on the short lived human prey it lives among. This is a dark world. Assuming that an immortal predator that preys on humans is an exact personality match for the goddess she's pretending to be as we think of that goddess today is the wrong way to approach the setting.

 

[whichone]

Your list is more reflective of the modern concept of Artemis, as her conceptualization and worship in ancient times was no means uniform or monolithic, but instead varied from century to century and city to city. It also assumes that the actual vampire must match the image built up by her PR, which is all too often untrue for powerful humans, and is even much less likely to be true for powerful vampires.

All that I have said, is that if she doesn't share any of the established, documented character traits known for Artemis, then it's illogical to assume that she is Artemis.
It is equally improbable that she is any sort of inspiration for the myth of Artemis, sans any of the established character traits.

In 6th to 8th century BCE Sparta for example. male priests of Artemis whipped themselves bloody to show their devotion while celibate female priestesses danced in a hypersexualized manner.

Yes, as a trial for the male observers. If they became aroused, they were severely punished.
OK, so maybe this can fit the chaste side of things, if she's testing the MC?
Either way, preistesses displaying their goods, is not Artemis displaying hers.

Artemis, particularly the Spartan version of Artemis, aka Artemis Orthia, was a much harsher, bloodier goddess than you appear to recognize. Even Cicero commented on how the bloody, often deadly spectacle of her worship in Sparta drew tourists during Roman times. To me that sounds like very easy feeding for a smart, enterprising vampire.

Certainly plausible. But still completely speculative.

You've got to think like a long-lived predator that preys on the short lived human prey it lives among. This is a dark world. Assuming that an immortal predator that preys on humans is an exact personality match for the goddess she's pretending to be as we think of that goddess today is the wrong way to approach the setting.

I see what you're saying, but the attributes for the myth have to come from somewhere and if this character does not portray any of them, then it doesn't make sense that she is, or served as the inspiration for, the Artemis of Greek myth.

 

[Arigon]

Cthonic Gods and Goddesses, which Artemis was one of, demanded blood sacrifice. This is not a very pure and chaste activity, rather vampire like in fact. Just saying.

 

[D3xzalias]

This is not about opinions.
It is about one person imagining something, with zero evidence to corroborate it.
Then someone else pointing this fallacy out & providing facts that prove the imagined conclusion incorrect.

Artemis' character is well established and well documented and there is absolutely nothing in the game which suggests they share any attributes.
There is 1 massive attribute which is directly contradicted.

If evidence does come to the game that corroborates the suggestion, then it will bear more weight.
None is currently there, so it has no weight.
There is evidence to the contrary, so it has minus weight.
It is, therefore, a fact, not an opinion, that it is illogical to assume that she is Artemis.

It's a fucking fiction novel if people decide that vision girl is Artemis. You are shit out of luck arguing she is not
Multiple people here have accepted that she is Artemis. Just to keep theory crafting here fun. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong with what she is or isn't. Just respect people choices on how they believe the story plays out in their minds

 

[whichone]

It's a fucking fiction novel if people decide that vision girl is Artemis. You are shit out of luck arguing she is not
Multiple people here have accepted that she is Artemis. Just to keep theory crafting here fun. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong with what she is or isn't. Just respect people choices on how they believe the story plays out in their minds

I have not said that anyone should change their mind. Not once.
I have simply provided facts for why the idea doesn't stand to reason.
If people wish to ignore them and continue their belief, I have no problem with that, at all.
If people wish to dispute them, then we have a conversation.
Just, make sure to attack the facts, instead of me.