VN Ren'Py Rebirth [Ep.5 Update 13] [LikesBlondes]

[Arigon]

Another example of vampiric blood thirst of Artemis-
The story of Niobe illustrates the favourite Greek theme that the gods are quick to take

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(nemesis) on human pride and

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(

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). Niobe is the subject of lost tragedies by both

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and

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, and

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tells her story in his

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. Papyrus fragments of

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’ Niobe show that Apollo and Artemis appear onstage together, and Apollo points out Niobe’s daughter for his sister to kill. The number of her children, which varies with different authors, is generally given in post-Homeric literature as seven sons and seven daughters.

Pretty cold to kill 7 little girls don't you think? Very vampiric though. Further she forced Agamemnon to slay his own daughter for offending her. Doesn't sound like that great a person to me.

She and her nymphs would dance lasciviously during special rites.... virginal activity? Not so much....
There is much more....

 

[Arigon]

By the way, get the popcorn ready, another wad of pure conjecture coming soon. This time related to Virgil more than anything else.... well Virgil and Artemis and Calisto....and how in the world this might be coming together!

 

[Ayhsel]

I have not read the last few pages. I am just going to say we are calling her Artemis to give her a name. A few months before we used to call her Lilith. I used to call her the Red Beauty Dream or mommy, as she is saved as mom inside the code. But as Callisto is vamp mommy that was confusing.

In the end, we have no idea who or what she is. The only thing we know is that she is very likely related to MC, given that she once says to MC feeding from Sharon something like "nice, but remember she is not your real mother".

All other things are simply theory crafting to keep the void that monthly updates leave.

 

[Arigon]

I have not read the last few pages. I am just going to say we are calling her Artemis to give her a name. A few months later we used to call her Lilith. I used to call her the Red Beauty Dream or mommy, as she is saved as mom inside the code. But as Callisto is vamp mommy that was confusing.

In the end, we have no idea who or what she is. The only thing we know is that she is very likely related to MC, given that she once says to MC feeding from Sharon something like "nice, but remember she is not your real mother".

All other things are simply theory crafting to keep the void that monthly updates leave.

and we do it in a pleasant non confrontational way.

 

[Arigon]

I have not read the last few pages. I am just going to say we are calling her Artemis to give her a name. A few months before we used to call her Lilith. I used to call her the Red Beauty Dream or mommy, as she is saved as mom inside the code. But as Callisto is vamp mommy that was confusing.

In the end, we have no idea who or what she is. The only thing we know is that she is very likely related to MC, given that she once says to MC feeding from Sharon something like "nice, but remember she is not your real mother".

All other things are simply theory crafting to keep the void that monthly updates leave.

ooo but you do need to go back to my popcorn time theory where I exonerate Astrid again... somewhat unwillingly!

 

[Ayhsel]

and we do it in a pleasant non confrontational way.

Of course. Let's keep Rebirth the friendly threat it has always been.

EDIT: I wanted to write thread... by a funny coincidence I wrote threat... friendly threat... Just like Astrid!

ooo but you do need to go back to my popcorn time theory where I exonerate Astrid again... somewhat unwillingly!

I will my friend, as soon as I have time tonight. I know you mentioned me and saw the post is half the novel long, but other than that, I could not read

 

[BigStuffedTiger]

All that I have said, is that if she doesn't share any of the established, documented character traits known for Artemis, then it's illogical to assume that she is Artemis.

I'm not assuming she is Artemis. I'm saying that there is a high probability she was worshiped as Artemis, and she is almost certainly the reason why Calisto built her temple here of all places.

It is equally improbable that she is any sort of inspiration for the myth of Artemis, sans any of the established character traits.

She doesn't have to be any sort of inspiration for the myth of Artemis. She may have simply seized control of a local or regional cult in ancient Greece. Although IMHO she's a better match than you recognize.

Yes, as a trial for the male observers. If they became aroused, they were severely punished.

It's all about the blood. So when punishment means blood, that's something just about any vampire can get behind.

Certainly plausible. But still completely speculative.

Is there an element of speculation? Certainly. But it's not as big as you make it out to be once one considers the spirit of the inspirational material.

I see what you're saying, but the attributes for the myth have to come from somewhere and if this character does not portray any of them, then it doesn't make sense that she is, or served as the inspiration for, the Artemis of Greek myth.

I'd argue that she does portray enough of them to masquerade as Artemis:

1) She looks like a waifish young maiden.
2) She has what ancient humans and many modern ones would consider god-like power.
3) She hunts mortal men as prey.
4) Her worship involves blood.

 

[whichone]

1) She looks like a waifish young maiden.

I don't know where Artemis, the athletic huntress, is displayed as a waifish young maiden, other than in her early life, as per when Zeus gave her the wishes.

2) She has what ancient humans and many modern ones would consider god-like power.

This doesn't tie her to Artemis, just to being considered a God.

3) She hunts mortal men as prey.

Artemis did not hunt men as prey.
Which man did she eat? Don't forget, cannibalism was frowned upon in Greek culture. Athena withdrew her support of Tydeus for eating his opponent's brains in the battle of the 7 against Thebes.
They were her target or quarry, but not prey.
She is still associated with hunts for animals, not men.

4) Her worship involves blood.

Well, that's like saying that another religion's worship involves water, so their god must be Aquaman.
It proves nothing. Which is my whole point.
There is zero actual evidence, outside of speculative ideas which are not established in the story. Nor are they currently backed up by the story content we've received.

 

[whichone]

From where I'm seeing it, this idea has been born out of the fact that Calisto is her handmaiden.
From there, the suggestion was conceived and has then been expanded upon with speculation alone.
So you can see why it seems odd, to an outsider, when I am presented with an idea which has nothing tangible, in the game or myths, to corroborate it.
Stretching elements of the myth and saying "that could be why" is not evidence for something.

Now that Ayhsel has kindly explained that Artemis is just a name being used & therefore she could be called Kate to all intents and purposes, it's fine. Can call her Mercury, or Odin for all I care, in that case.
My objection was to her being considered an actual representation of the Greek goddess.

 

[BigStuffedTiger]

I don't know where Artemis, the athletic huntress, is displayed as a waifish young maiden, other than in her early life, as per when Zeus gave her the wishes.

In a society where almost every woman over 20 is married, virginity tends to be tied to a maiden-like appearance. It's about looking the part of a virgin.

This doesn't tie her to Artemis, just to being considered a God.

No, but when you look like a teen-age girl, that shortens the list of goddesses people will assume you to be considerably.

Artemis did not hunt men as prey.

She's a huntress who killed many men, which to me is close enough. My point isn't that this or any of my other points somehow prove Dreamgirl is Artemis, so much that there is enough for a frightened ancient Greek to believe she is Artemis.

Well, that's like saying that another religion's worship involves water, so their god must be Aquaman.
It proves nothing. Which is my whole point.

Evidence and proof are not the same thing, and the words really shouldn't be used interchangeably. I never said it was proof. Evidence doesn't need to prove a theory, just fit it. It's the big difference between theories and facts.

There is zero actual evidence, outside of speculative ideas which are unestablished in the story.

We'll have to agree to disagree. What I consider evidence you consider complete speculation. What you consider evidence I consider completely irrelevant. I think the only thing we can agree on is that it isn't proven that Dreamgirl is Artemis. I will continue to consider it the best fit for the data points we have while you will go on considering it entirely speculation.

 

[whichone]

In a society where almost every woman over 20 is married, virginity tends to be tied to a maiden-like appearance. It's about looking the part of a virgin.

But she didn't look like a waif. She's always portrayed as a strong, atheltic female, other than when she was a child.

Spoiler: Non-waif.

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No, but when you look like a teen-age girl, that shortens the list of goddesses people will assume you to be considerably.

I don't know who you're referring to as looking like a teen-aged girl.
Artemis is not portrayed as such. (See above.)

She's a huntress who killed many men, which to me is close enough. My point isn't that this or any of my other points somehow prove Dreamgirl is Artemis, so much that there is enough for a frightened ancient Greek to believe she is Artemis.

Close enough? It's entirely different.
Hunting men for prey means killing them and eating them.
She never, ever did anything close to that.
Hunting men for vengeance or retribution makes them her quarry, not her prey.
She is not known as a huntress of men, she is specifically known as a huntress of animals.
Of any of the men that she hunted & killed for transgressions, I don't know of any reported to have been drained of their blood, before, during or after their defeat.

Evidence and proof are not the same thing, and you really shouldn't use the words interchangeably. I never said it was proof. Evidence doesn't need to prove a theory, just fit it. It's the big difference between theories and facts.

It's not a theory. It's not plausible, so does not qualify.
Evidence is a component of proof.
Without evidence, there is no proof. Therefore an absence of evidence "proves nothing".
Saying "this proves nothing" is transposable with "there is no evidence here."
There is no evidence for her being Artemis, only against.
The fact that this character does not meet any of the established character traits for Artemis, is evidence against her being Artemis.
If, in a future update, one of those traits is displayed, then it will be able to be considered as evidence for her being Artemis.
So far this has not happened.

We'll have to agree to disagree. What I consider evidence you consider complete speculation. What you consider evidence I consider completely irrelevant. I think the only thing we can agree on is that it isn't proven that Dreamgirl is Artemis. I will continue to consider it the best fit for the data points we have while you will go on considering it entirely speculation.

What I consider evidence is written in her history. That's why it is evidence.
What is being speculated upon, is not supported in the game, or her written history. There is zero evidence in support of her being Artemis.
You're welcome to consider it a good fit.
It's evidentially, factually not, but feel free. I am not trying to tell you what you should think. I am simply presenting facts. You can do with them entirely as you please. That's absolutely your prerogative.

 

[Twisted peel]

But she didn't look like a waif. She's always portrayed as a strong, atheltic female, other than when she was a child.

Spoiler: Non-waif.

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What I consider evidence is written in her history. That's why it is evidence.
What is being speculated upon, is not supported in the game, or her written history. There is zero evidence in support of her being Artemis.
You're welcome to consider it a good fit.
It's evidentially, factually not, but feel free. I am not trying to tell you what you should think. I am simply presenting facts. You can do with them entirely as you please. That's absolutely your prerogative.

dude, you need to calm down. you've been going on and on and on about this for AGES now. i don't know if its just me, but you're spreading bad vvibes all over the chat, and it's getting annoying.
i think by now the whole planet has seen your opinion, because you've basically been copy-pasting the same message over and over again.

if you're STILL arguing about this after writing you opinion up 100 times, you can probably tell you're not gonna change anyones minds.

and just FYI: i don't give 2 shits if dream girl is Artemis or not, i literally don't care, so i'm not taking anyones side in this argument. but seeing the same exact copy pasted message as an argument for the 100th time is getting rather annoying.

 

[whichone]

dude, you need to calm down. you've been going on and on and on about this for AGES now. i don't know if its just me, but you're spreading bad vvibes all over the chat, and it's getting annoying.

I'm perfectly calm, thanks. At no point have I become or displayed anything that constitutes an elevated level of stress.
Perhaps you shouldn't make baseless assumptions?
I get it, that it's repetitive, but that's because the facts do not change to fit with someone's opinion. I keep repeating the facts, because they are continually the appropriate response to the questions I am posed.
The fact that I & the established facts, attributed to the character in the myths, do not agree with the consensus of 5-6 is not bringing the thread into a negative position, nor are any of the things that I have said.
I have not attacked anyone, I have not said anything negative or derogatory about anyone.
As I said before, attacking my reasons for my position is fine. Attacking me is not.
If you don't want to engage in conversation, don't engage with me.
If you don't wish to read what I've written, because you find it tedious, then place me on ignore. It's quite simple.

 

[BigStuffedTiger]

You're welcome to consider it a good fit.

Thank you, I most certainly will as the argumentation you presented against that fit was built on highly rigid expectations of a mythological figure when the material that inspired this game and whose spirit this game remains true to was much more flexible in its handling of such figures.

It's evidentially, factually not, but feel free. I am not trying to tell you what you should think. I am simply presenting facts.

I don't doubt that you presented the facts as you see them.

 

[whichone]

Thank you, I most certainly will as the argumentation you presented against that fit was built on highly rigid expectations of a mythological figure

Yes, the known and established facts are rigid, unfortunately. They don't change.

when the material that inspired this game and whose spirit this game remains true to was much more flexible in its handling of such figures.

Based on what?
Where do you draw this conclusion from? Which other characters from mythology are in the game, to serve as an example of this being present?

I don't doubt that you presented the facts as you see them.

How I see them is how they are written.
I don't perceive her to be Goddess of the Hunt. This is documented.
I don't perceive her to be a symbol of chastity. This is documented.
I don't perceive her to be a lifelong virgin who expressed no interest in men, other than Orion. This is documented.
I don't perceive her to be a strong, athletic woman. She is shown as such in paintings, sculptures, all sorts.
I don't perceive her to not seek the attention of men. This is documented.
I don't perceive her to be a Goddess who gave aid to pregnant women in labour. This is documented.
I don't perceive vision girl as being unchaste, she is, by the very definition of the word.

None of these key character attributes have been mentioned, hinted at, or displayed. One, maybe two (depending on what she's doing with the MC) of them has been directly contradicted.

 

[FunFuntomes]

Artemis is a symbol of chastity. Being chaste is not only about sexual activity. It is also about not having any desire for sexual activity, which is clearly written in Artemis' character.
Artemis is associated with caring for mothers, assisting them with childbirth.

caring for mothers? Assisting them with chidlbirth? almost as if she helped Calisto embrace the MC... oh wait... she did!

As already said, many times, being chaste does not require sexual activity.
Appearing in next to no clothing is, by very definition of the word, not chaste behaviour.

well... you're bringing up a very christian notion of chastity. and I'll twist Arigon 's words to my benefit... VAMPIRES HAVE NO DESIRE FOR SEX

Which part of this being vampires are you missing? Artemis does not have to be chaste, she does not have to have any traits at all which are attributed the deity 4,000 years ago, in the modern nights. Things change.
As discussed previously which you chose to ignore, Artemis is not my idea, it was a collaborative idea which we used to explain RELATIONSHIP's not character traits. She could screw all the Spartans and still be Artemis. Artemis of legend was chaste. Embracing children as a vampire does not violate this, and that is how she reproduces. Her form she shows is swimming in blood. Artemis, along with her brother are vengeful gods. There are several examples where attempts to rape Artemis were repaid by excessive bloodshed to repay it. Vampires dude. Not GODS. We are simply trying to establish a lineage here. If you do not like the thread and it's direction of discussion, you are free to go elsewhere and spout how stupid we all are for trying to establish the relationships of the vampires, NOT examine their character traits. No vampire is chaste. All of them violate their food supply. All are murderers at one point or another. All of them take forcibly what they want. Even vampires on a path of purity brea

same as the greek gods. I don't see Zeus asking for permission.

Artemis, particularly the Spartan version of Artemis, aka Artemis Orthia, was a much harsher, bloodier goddess than you appear to recognize. Even Cicero commented on how the bloody, often deadly spectacle of her worship in Sparta drew tourists during Roman times. To me that sounds like very easy feeding for a smart, enterprising vampire. Get the cattle to voluntarily offer up their blood in regular worship rituals, and if some die, it only increases the cult's notoriety. And if a vampire is protective of the virginity of its female servants that is a good way to get their fathers to hand them over on a silver platter as it would in no way damage their marriage prospects while encouraging them to dance in a sexually provocative manner would draw in the men and encourage them to offer up their blood.

in the forbidden material we can't bring up, Artemis Orthis is listed as a 4th generation ventrue, that aided the romans in destroying the bruja city of carthage, she was either killed or went into torpor.

 

[Arigon]

A frightening post from the author, and it makes it mandatory to rethink genealogy:

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1:10 AM
Vision girl? lol Good name for her I suppose. Vision girl is MUCH older than Calisto. As Calisto would be a myth to most vampires. Vision girl would be a myth to Calisto herself. Not her child.


This is definitely making me concerned for our well being, and the fact that Vision Girl was behind our embrace is almost guaranteed.

 

[whichone]

caring for mothers? Assisting them with chidlbirth? almost as if she helped Calisto embrace the MC... oh wait... she did!

Don't see any relevance in your statement. Just another wild stretch.
Neither MC, or Calisto were pregnant or gave birth to a child. Neither went through labour, which is where Artemis is said to have provided majority of her help.
Which fact about her being Artemis is this non-canon invention supposed to evidence?
There is currently no evidence to show that vision girl helped Calisto. It's an invention, a suspicion I actually share, but it's not been established as a truth or a fact by the game.
This is what is known as an assumption. You assume that your suspicion is correct. Yet currently there is no evidence to support it.
Same as the idea that she is Artemis.

Even the dev has stated that she is not Calisto's mother, also suggests that she's not anything related to her.
She is so much older that she is a "myth" to Calisto. Calisto is "not her child".
That rather scuppers your suggestion, above. It was invalid to begin with. Now it is proven categorically incorrect, by the dev.
So, where is she displaying the tendency to care for pregnant mothers, now?
Oh. Wait. She's not. She never was.

well... you're bringing up a very christian notion of chastity.
VAMPIRES HAVE NO DESIRE FOR SEX

I am not bringing up any "notion" of chastity, I am using the specific definition of the word, by the dictionary.
Look it up for yourself to verify this.
I have never claimed that they do. There is no dispute here?
They are well written as intentionally making their victims feel desire for them.
Making yourself sexually desirable, regardless of whether to suck their blood or fuck them senseless, is categorically, by definition, not chaste behaviour.

 

[c3p0]

A frightening post from the author, and it makes it mandatory to rethink genealogy:

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1:10 AM
Vision girl? lol Good name for her I suppose. Vision girl is MUCH older than Calisto. As Calisto would be a myth to most vampires. Vision girl would be a myth to Calisto herself. Not her child.


This is definitely making me concerned for our well being, and the fact that Vision Girl was behind our embrace is almost guaranteed.

Well that makes her more Lilith/Cain than anything other.
Which nut of yours have you bet on this again?

 

[Rikis]

It's already here in a link in the OP, I do the save transfer of the game and didn't catch it in my testing, but found it through other members on the site.

And what other bugs are fixed?