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Meaning Less

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1) distribusing for free some software containing assets which in turn are legally available for free
2) distribusing for free some software containing assets most of which are legally available only through a purchase
Free/open-source content is much more open to fair use laws which is why most indie devs opt to go that way, as I mentioned both cases are legal if you don't plan to sell your program.

It also makes more sense for the patreon model because as a fan If you see a dev just planning to sell their game from the getgo many people will overlook patreon and just wait for the steam version directly, seems pretty scummy to me to get donations PLUS the profits of selling your game later, but again that's coming from someone with the open-source mindset.

Pretty sure that is also part of the reason why so many games get dropped, the moment some devs show how scummy they are and start milking patreons leads to patreons abandoning their projects, or they planned something entirely unrealistic because that is what patreons want but never fully planned on delivering it in the first place, but that's just my interpretation of the data I've gathered so far from the western maket.
 

Sphere42

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Is that legal though? Isn’t using HS and TK for renders considered piracy? I currently live in Germany where it isn't possible to access adult games on Steam, so I cannot check if they allow these type of games or not. Patreon seems to be OK with them, but the same was true for games that used real porn images, which have recently started to face a lot of trouble.
Please keep in mind IP laws are national matters and thus vary quite a bit by location, despite some international treaties. Copyright in particular often is innate to creative work rather than tied to the oversight of a government authority like trademarks or patents and thus very open to interpretation by courts. To my layman's understanding selling HS renders in Germany would indeed be illegal, but Illusion would need to pursue their rights before German courts if the initial C&D is not heeded. Then said court needs to deal with arguments that renders are created by the users and that the 2D image of a 3D model is not the same as the 3D model itself. No idea how that will end. All moot if the Illusion game itself is a pirated copy of course.

If the patreon model remains the most successful, it’s due to a combination of it being where players find their money to be best placed, and it being the one that offers the lowest entry barrier/investment upfront for devs.
Depends on the timescale you consider. Scams and psychological abuse take a looong time to come to light and even longer to process fully. The subscription model certainly is the easiest for running a "legal" scam (YMMV if challenged in court, but signed contracts tend to be valid).

Of course it is, to sell your game is an entirely difference process and everything has to be licensed accordingly, but to just distribute the game for free like most devs do is another story, patreon is there just to gather donations, not to sell the game.
Same way it would be illegal to sell programs using some open-source libs depending on their restrictions, but they are perfectly legal to be distributed freely without being considered piracy or anything illegal.
Plenty of devs paywall their shit. Even a temporary lock means the "early access" you are selling is derived from protected IP and "commercial use" is open to interpretation if you receiving "donations" is dependent on your public use of that IP. In particular some copyright laws do also ban non-commercial reproduction/replication of protected works especially if you distribute those copies. So a personal backup of your porn movie drive might be legal, but handing a copy to your friend might be illegal.

But as above the rights holder would need to sue each violator individually and might still lose in some edge cases covered under fair use, or even due to formalities if for example a prior written warning is required to sue someone under national IP law.

TL;DR: probably illegal, but probably not worth pursuing except for chilling effects or if you have money to burn.
 
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Meaning Less

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Plenty of devs paywall their shit. Even a temporary lock means the "early access" you are selling is derived from protected IP and "commercial use" is open to interpretation if you receiving "donations" is dependent on your public use of that IP. In particular some copyright laws do also ban non-commercial reproduction/replication of protected works especially if you distribute those copies. So a personal backup of your porn movie drive might be legal, but handing a copy to your friend might be illegal.
If the temporary lock can be considered a sale I agree it might cause issues, especially for a dev that tries to drm their game.

But in most cases I bet patreon can defend that they aren't actually locking/selling anything, they just distribute the free content to highest donors first.
Here are their :
" By posting creations on Patreon you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, reproduce, distribute, perform, publicly display or prepare derivative works of your creation. The purpose of this license is strictly limited to allow us to provide and promote memberships to your patrons."
Basically it seems like the moment people post their games to patreon it is already free by default, that's why they can distribute it without issues and probably deny even selling the content, so it wouldn't fall under early access sale and such.

But who knows, like you said laws are pretty local and tend to be very case by case.
 

MissFortune

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Pretty sure same rules apply as DAZ:

"Essentially, you can use DAZ models in 2D apps without a licence (e.g. visual novels, or as backgrounds etc), but you can't use them for 3D characters in games without a licence."
Explained under their EULA.

3D content has different rules over 3dcg which are just screenshots and don't actually use 3d assets which are the licensed object, being closer to fair use and there is no way to even verify if those models were bought or just downloaded after that point either...
Of course it is, to sell your game is an entirely difference process and everything has to be licensed accordingly, but to just distribute the game for free like most devs do is another story, patreon is there just to gather donations, not to sell the game.
Same way it would be illegal to sell programs using some open-source libs depending on their restrictions, but they are perfectly legal to be distributed freely without being considered piracy or anything illegal.
When you buy Daz assets, you get a license for commercial use in standard renders out of Daz. The stuff you see in VNs, etc. Where the extended license comes into play is using them a user-controllable character in a game made for UE, for example. Which Daz and PAs will be much more likely to look for proof of purchase as they are typically quite a lot more expensive than a standard daz figure/environment.

If a Daz PA/Creator suspects piracy, and I'm not sure if this has ever happened to anyone, they will confront you about it. They'll ask for a proof of purchase, and if you can't show them, then they'll call piracy. That's all the proof they need. What happens after that? Anyone's guess is as good as mine, but it probably won't be good. Though, I suppose nothing's stopping anyone from buying said product/asset and showing them.

"Fair use permits a party to use a copyrighted work without the copyright owner's permission for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research". Pirating paid assets, rendering them out/putting them in a VN, and making a profit does not fall under fair use and is in violation of Daz's licenses. A dev making a VN on Patreon with pirated assets is still selling a giving away a project in return for financial gain. People are still paying for a product, thus profit.
 
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Sphere42

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If the temporary lock can be considered a sale I agree it might cause issues, especially for a dev that tries to drm their game.

But in most cases I bet patreon can defend that they aren't actually locking/selling anything, they just distribute the free content to highest donors first.
Here are their :
" By posting creations on Patreon you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, reproduce, distribute, perform, publicly display or prepare derivative works of your creation. The purpose of this license is strictly limited to allow us to provide and promote memberships to your patrons."
Basically it seems like the moment people post their games to patreon it is already free by default, that's why they can distribute it without issues and probably deny even selling the content, so it wouldn't fall under early access sale and such.
Early access probably counts as a service derived from/marketed with protected IP. Like printing a picture of Iron Man on a rollercoaster. So open to legal debate regarding fair use and derivative works.

The Patreon ToS however do not matter. They do not apply if the member never held those rights to give away in the first place. If anything they might be trading stolen goods or enabling IP infringement, although I expect them to weasel out of that bit. Some IP laws (patents?) actually even grant the holder the right to demand contact and distribution information from vendors and suppliers violating those protections, as well as the destruction of offending products.

Again: probably not viable to attack Patreon on the grounds of IP law because they'll most likely throw individual creators under the bus to protect themselves, but I doubt common creator practices are fully legal without explicit licencing. On the flip side some commercial IP rights might actually be lost if the holder knowingly tolerates violations but copyright definitely doesn't.
 
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anne O'nymous

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I’m not informed about that at all, but a quick search around here (or here, or here) tells me that it indeed seems to be illegal to sell games containing HS renders on steam.
It depend. Illusion have claimed many times that you have the permission to use images coming from their "studio" software in your project, as long as you don't remove the copyright notice that is automatically added to the image. But it's not really pleasant to see, and most devs remove it. And obviously, there's the license problem. You've the right to use the images... as long as you've the right to use the software itself ; so as long as you legally acquired it by buying it.

After, perhaps that Steam decided to stay as safe as possible and systematically refuse games using HS/other for the CG, even when the game comply to Illusion license. But legally speaking as long as you bought the software, and keep the copyright notice on the image, you have the right to make a game with it, and to sell it.


Here are their :
" By posting creations on Patreon you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, reproduce, distribute, perform, publicly display or prepare derivative works of your creation. The purpose of this license is strictly limited to allow us to provide and promote memberships to your patrons."
Basically it seems like the moment people post their games to patreon it is already free by default, that's why they can distribute it without issues and probably deny even selling the content, so it wouldn't fall under early access sale and such.
It's absolutely not what the sentences you quoted say. In layman words it say, "if you use our services, we, and our partners, can do whatever we want with your creation(s), but don't worry, by ourselves we limit this use to self promotion."

This being said, most games on Patreons are available for free. You don't pay for the game, you support the creator while he make the game. In the majority of case, if you don't want to support the creator, nor to pirate the game, just wait the end of the "patreon exclusivity" period and you'll have the game for free.
 
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Meaning Less

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"if you use our services, we, and our partners, can do whatever we want with your creation(s), but don't worry, by ourselves we limit this use to self promotion."
You do realize that the moment you give those permission they can do whatever they want and you have no right to complain? They just claim they won't misuse them (and probably wont) but that's entirely up to them and they can freely distribute your game as they see fit after that.
Here is a more of why they need all those items, it is entirely to avoid copyright infrigiments on their part.
 

anne O'nymous

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[Note: It's late, and I'm tired, so I'll probably answer more "globally" than I usually do when it come to legal topic.]

You do realize that the moment you give those permission they can do whatever they want and you have no right to complain?
You do realize that this is far to be something new or limited to Patreon ? I guess that you use absolutely no online sites, and only have games installed on your smartphone, because this clause is in the license/ToS of all the sites/applications that, in a way or another, is hosting content. Facebook have its version, Twitter have its version, Instagram, Twitch, Blogger, and so on, all have their own version that say exactly the same thing. Sometimes with different words, sometimes with those exact words.


They just claim they won't misuse them (and probably wont) but that's entirely up to them and they can freely distribute your game as they see fit after that.
It's not just a claim, it's the words of a legal document. I'm not good enough with US laws, therefore don't know for sure the weight of such sentence, but a Terms of Service, Terms of Use, and all license-like documents aren't a blog post. You cannot say that you didn't meant it, you cannot say that you used the wrong words. What you write engage you and your responsibility ; when you limit yourself in such document, you have the obligation to limit yourself for real. After, like I said, I don't guaranty that this exact formulation isn't a loophole, but I doubt it is.
It would have been better if this part was directly worded like, "by posting creations on Patreon you grant us a royalty-free [...] of your creation, for promotion purpose.", than being split in two sentences. This because the rights you give would have been directly limited. Because a creator don't just limit the rights he give ("sell", "reproduce", etc.) he also give limited rights ("for this", "during that", "for this long", etc.) ; by example when you are hosted by a festival/convention/whatever you can possibly give the right to its planner to distribute free copy of your creation, rights that will be granted "inside the event and for the duration of the event". But I guess that it needed to be split, in order for them to ensure that any future idea they can have regarding promotions is already covered.

Also have to be defined what "posting" mean. Technically speaking, providing a link to an archive hosted on a third party site is not "posting". Legally speaking it's more complex, but according to the number of pirate sites that achieve to exist legally because they only provide links and at no time host content by themselves, the difference seem to apply. If it's effectively the case, then the game by itself isn't concerned by this part of the ToS.


Here is a more of why they need all those items, it is entirely to avoid copyright infrigiments on their part.
Is this surprising you ? It really was obvious just by having a basis knowledge regarding Intellectual Property.
You own the right of everything you create, even this post I answer to is fully your property. And legally speaking you could sue everyone who copy it. Obviously it would be stupid to do so. It's not a significant enough text to be legally seen as effectively unique (therefore plagiarism wouldn't apply), nor to be seen as an effective creation (therefore someone can involuntarily write the same thing), and there's an implicit right to quotation due to the nature of web forums.
Yet you own all the rights to it. That's by example why Facebook have this kind of clause in their ToU, else they wouldn't have the possibility to show your status in the feed of your friends ; this because, unlike with forum, where people come to your content, in Facebook it's your content that come to people. Legally they would use something you own all IP rights on without your authorization.
And it's the same here. Without this clause, Patreon couldn't even have a "do you know this creator ? Perhaps it can interest you." page ; or more precisely they could, but it would be limited to the name of the account since everything else if your property and they have no rights to use it.

Of course, as I said above, they could have worded this better, at least from a layman point of view. But lawyers and jurists like to make big sentences with big words... precisely because, as I also said above, it's not a blog post, they need to be precise, inclusive, and let the less possible place to interpretation.
They now have a merchandising store. Imagine that they created subsidiary company to handle it. It's a service offered by Patreon, so you don't need to register to another company, but the site itself is handle by someone else in Patreon name. And suddenly, they discover that they forgot the "sublicensable" in the clause. Boom, the subsidiary company can not even put the banner of your patreon account on your page in the store, because they don't have the right to use your creations, and Patreon don't have the right to give them this right.
Note that I honestly don't know if there's the banner in the merch page, nor even what the merch page looks like. It was a theoretical example more than a practical one.
 

Meaning Less

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Sometimes with different words, sometimes with those exact words.
Well but those words are pretty important, and all those platforms you mentioned use it to cover their bases, so they don't get in trouble later and can distribute/sell all your data to other companies legally which is how they make money in the first place.
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anne O'nymous

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Well but those words are pretty important, and all those platforms you mentioned use it to cover their bases, so they don't get in trouble later and can distribute/sell all your data to other companies legally which is how they make money in the first place.
Except that the data they sell are not at all the once concerned by this clause... Facebook, to name only one, do not sell your statuses, they sell their user database and connection logs.


I don't want to extend this offtopic discussion but just know that to actually copyright your program is something pretty complex and bureacratic and I doubt many porn game devs are doing it in the first place (takes a lot of steps and money to claim your copyrights over programs, usually involves local copyright agencies).
I'll extend a little the off topic, because you're mostly just saying bullshit, and I can't let authors that would read your post believe that they have no rights regarding their game. It's the complete opposite.

Your software, and anything you create, is copyrighted the instant you write it ; you have nothing to do, you own the rights to all your creations. This is a common point to Law regarding Intellectual Property for all the signatory countries (~90% of the world) of the ; convention that have been updated in 1996.
The procedure you talk about is not to copyright your creation, but to register it and have an agency manage the rights in your name ; someone want to use your game in a movie, by example, they have to ask for this and to pay fees for this, and the agency will take care of that. And, exactly like it happen for music, movies, and any other creations, you have no obligation to use the services of such agency.
But, while creating the software is enough to own all rights regarding it, and you don't necessarily need an external agency to manage your rights, there's one thing missing if things start to be messy, it's the proof of anteriority. It's what the registering do, but passing by such agencies isn't the only way to register your creation.
The strongest way to do without relying to such agency is to deposit your software, source included, to a notary agency. The software will be put in a sealed and dated envelope, then kept in their safe. With this you'll be able to prove that you write it before the person you'll sue for theft or plagiarism. You can also do it by yourself, sending it, through registered mail with acknowledgement receipt, in a sealed envelope. It will have less weight than a notary deposit, but will still works in most countries. in both case, once the seal broke, it's the judgment that will serve as proof of your anteriority.
And I guess that modern Open Source coders rely on the versioning software behind the online repository they use, to provide this proof if needed. I'm not sure of its legal weight, and it wouldn't be as easy to use it, but as long as the repository effectively keep trace of all the changes since the start of the project, it's perfectly legit, valid and legal.


-Renpy libs are already copyrighted and while they let you sell your game with their code you still cant claim copyright over their libs.
You really believe that every day PyTom make an official registration of his code ? Take the time to think about it...
He said it himself more or less one year ago, every day since more than 12 years he works on his engine. And every day there's a new nighty built available to the public with the code he wrote during the previous day.
Yet, yes, all his code is copyrighted under his name and legally his own property on which he own all rights.

But anyway, what Ren'Py core have to do with all this ? It's not because it's a script language and Open Source, that it's different to a game engine like Unreal or Unity. What is copyrighted under your name is the code of the game you made by using the engine, not the couple game+engine. It's summarized as "the game", even in license of AAA titles using Unreal, because one can't go without the other, but it's meant as "everything excluding the base engine itself, but including the modification we can have made to the said engine".


-Same with licensing daz images, you can use them in your game but they aren't yours either, otherwise we would see a bunch of devs suing eachother for using the same model...
Wrong. You can NOT use licensed Daz images, because they are licensed... The only thing you can use is the renders you made by using the assets you legally acquired, and those renders are your own and entire property.
:
"Any 2D artwork you produce and render out is completely owned by you (unless specified otherwise on the product page). You can use your 2D works commercially, modify them, sell them, or promote them, as protected by the End User License Agreement (EULA). This is because the end product is a 2D render (your artwork) of the 3D model, as opposed to the original 3D Content."


In short, most of these games are already being shared in an open-source fashion and unless you create it using your own engine and art you will hardly get full rights over the content like big game companies do, especially after the moment you post it on patreon.
In short you know absolutely nothing regarding intellectual property and should really drop the topic.


Edit: I love you too dear Meaning Less :love:
 
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Meaning Less

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those renders are your own and entire property.
So by your logic I could create a game using different angles of models I've licensed on daz with a green/transparent background, post my game online and since it is mine now I will just let other people take screenshots from my game as they wish and use those images for free on their games.

Makes total sense.
 
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Sphere42

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It's not "by [my] logic" since Daz license, that I quoted and linked, say the same...
However it's worth noting that some courts might consider a sufficiently fine rasterisation of viewing angles a "direct" representation of the 3D model itself, especially if they don't understand posing and animation.

Takes way too much space to store and host all those renders anyway so not really useful to begin with.
 

anne O'nymous

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However it's worth noting that some courts might consider a sufficiently fine rasterisation of viewing angles a "direct" representation of the 3D model itself, especially if they don't understand posing and animation.
But for this to be a risk, you firstly need to be sued. And neither Daz, nor the artists using their store, would do it. Daz because they wrote the license confirming that you own all rights over the renders. The artists because, by selling on this store and not stating otherwise on the asset page (as said by the license), they explicitly recognize that you own all rights over the renders.
Plus, since this part of the license don't goes against Law, justice would have not much to say ; "oh, you want to give up a part of your rights, and transfer the property on the render to the person who made it... There's nothing in Law saying that you cannot, and many thing saying that you can, but I'm sorry, I'll still not authorize this". Technically speaking, the court have this power, but the judge would looks ridicule and it wouldn't be this difficult to find a jurisdiction to revert this ruling.
 

Sphere42

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But for this to be a risk, you firstly need to be sued.
Yes, but since that was my main conclusion in my previous post(s?) I didn't feel like repeating myself. Especially with copyright in the Western world most answers amount to "probably illegal, definitely not worth the lawsuit" as long as we're talking about business and not ideological opposition to how your work is used.
 

Davox

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Personally I think one of the issues that there is no incentive to end games. There are lots of games that have a good idea for a plot but then start to falter and lack originality and just drop into the same troupes we've seen countless times before and then just run out of steam.

I mean just look at Glassix its been in development for 6 years now. I played it after 2 years and all that's happened since then is more and more girls have been added it to it with generic plot lines. The gameplay and graphics now look really dated and the reviews are now virtually all 3*. It should have just been completed ages ago and Dev could have moved onto something new.

My top 3 of abandoned games all still worth a play:
https://f95zone.to/threads/the-humbling-experience-v0-32-greyinu.433/
https://f95zone.to/threads/selena-one-hour-agent-v0-77-serio.5977/
https://f95zone.to/threads/the-therapist-endless701-rfpnj.1447/
 

anne O'nymous

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Personally I think one of the issues that there is no incentive to end games.
Yes and no.
The real problem is that too many authors haven't a single idea regarding the end of their story. And like the business model they rely on do not call for a fast ending of the development, they don't really bother with this ; it can wait since they don't plan to finish their game soon.


I mean just look at Glassix its been in development for 6 years now. I played it after 2 years and all that's happened since then is more and more girls have been added it to it with generic plot lines.
This is yet another problem since the game itself is a pure sandbox one.
The little bit of story it have is really limited. I haven't played it since years, but as far as I remember, you need to bring a new girl to the demon/succubus every week, else you're doomed. But here, the story itself isn't meant to be finished. As far as I remember, there's no "bring X girls to be free", the MC have to do this until his death.
How do you want the game to be finished, when it tell you right from the start that it will never be finished ?
 
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Sphere42

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This is yet another problem since the game itself is a pure sandbox one.
The little bit of story it have is really limited. I haven't played it since years, but as far as I remember, you need to bring a new girl to the demon/succubus every week, else you're doomed. But here, the story itself isn't meant to be finished. As far as I remember, there's no "bring X girls to be free", the MC have to do this until his death.
How do you want the game to be finished, when it tell you right from the start that it will never be finished ?
I'd say that was a really bad example. I mean Minecraft technically had an ending added with the 1.0 "no more beta" release but it is basically meaningless in terms of gameplay and last I checked it still does not really have anything resembling a plot or story. Sandboxes, arcade, MMOs and to a lesser extent competitive multiplayer games are the ones where the subscription model actually works, because they are inherently open-ended and benefit from constant additions and refinement. Oh, and keeping the servers running for those last two ;)

It's the visual novels, tight RPGs and other primarily story-driven formats which really suffer. I don't really believe most of the offenders would be able to do better with a starting budget or a private passion project but the persistent cash flow does tempt skilled writers as well.
 

anne O'nymous

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I don't really believe most of the offenders would be able to do better with a starting budget or a private passion project but the persistent cash flow does tempt skilled writers as well.
They effectively wouldn't because of the lack of known ending for their story.
I said it on another discussion. I, really slowly, works on my own game, but I want to have a strong draft before starting it. And wanting this confirmed me that finishing a story is way more difficult than starting it. More than once I had to drop an idea simply because the story couldn't be finished. It wasn't bad premises, it wasn't bad stories (at least I think), but it was stories that can not end better than with a "well, you've done enough, let's say that you'll pass to something else". And this isn't at all a satisfying end ; neither for me, not for those who would have played the game.

It's something that can be verified by looking at two emblematic games, Dating My Daughter and Dreams of Desire.
The second one is based on a story external to the main characters and have been finished since years. Whatever the MC can do on the lewd part, whatever how far he want to go with his family, such game will be finished the instant the said external story reach its end. Some abuse of this, and either make the story advance slowly, or add new plots. But you know that, technically speaking, there's a end to this story.
But the first one is totally different, and too many games followed this path. Here, the story is solely based on the main characters and the lewd parts. It's still a game in progress because the story can only finish with the death of the MC ; even if the daughter decide to abandon him, she was just the start of the journey and the MC now have other girls in his life. Since the whole story is "this guy rediscover, through the arrival of his daughter, that he's a man and can fuck girls", as long as he have girls to fuck, there's still a story to tell.
But some games achieve to still find a way to end this, like Sisterly Lust by example. It was yet another incest story resolving around the MC wanting to turn his family into a harem. But it had a background of insecurity that made the whole family move to another country where they can be as incestuous as they wanted. Technically speaking the story isn't finished, but by moving to somewhere else, where they can freely live their relation, they started a new chapter of their life. Therefore, the story ended in the same time that the previous chapter of their life, and it's a satisfying ending ; "they lived happily ever after and had many children".