Sad Reality

[Meaning Less]

First, that's a VERY bold "if", and second, it sorta contradicts to the very idea that you started this entire topic with.

How do you think some devs are so consistent? do you truly believe that they are giving it their all every week or that they just do the bare minimum to reach the "acceptable" patreon margin and save the extra content for multiple weeks to come?

And no it isn't contradicting my statement, because if you just extrapolate that idea you will understand that many devs that already had a short but completed game instead of releasing it directly will be motivated to split it and extend the same game to eternity instead as long as people are paying for it.

Luckily there are some honest devs mixed in, but they are certainly in the minority with this model.

 

[Yngling]

In the normal game market it is the opposite, games that are still under "early access" for years are usually looked down upon but here it is the exact opposite, which is funny especially if you consider how untechnical most porn games are. But hey, that's what it is now.
I'm not saying that patreon is entirely to blame but now that this model became the norm into the western porn market there will be many more abandoned games in our horizon because of it.

I think that a porn VN simply lends itself very well to the monthly update scheme.
I think of it as a kind of soap opera: you know it will go on forever, but still you are curious to see how the story progresses.

In my opinion, whether the dev already prepared a part of the, or even the entire, game in advance is not really relevant. Is it dishonest? I guess that depends on the way they present it: do they constantly complain about how much work it is (even though the work was done already a year ago)? Or don't they comment beyond "stay tuned for the next update!"?

To continue the parallel: soap opera's are also not shot one episode at a time. They shoot an entire season and release it over the course of, e.g. a year in weekly portions. Before Netflix etc., that is.... With Netflix, you may watch several episodes after each other and then get frustrated why it takes them so much time to release the next season.

 

[kilobananov]

And no it isn't contradicting my statement, because if you just extrapolate that idea you will understand that many devs that already had a short but completed game instead of releasing it directly will be motivated to split it and extend the same game to eternity instead as long as people are paying for it.

What I meant is that to have a complete game, even a short one, it may take months. Months of tedious effort to write, design, pose&render (if that's the process), post-prod, code, debug, test, polish etc. IDK how many people in general and devs in particular have enough discipline and stamina to do that "blindly" without seeking feedback or any kind support. I am sure that some can. I am not surprised that some, maybe many, cannot. How many of those good-hearted devs have abandoned their projects for reasons like jamdan has mentioned (personal or legal ussies, burnout etc)? Noone knows, the F95 Abandoned tag does not quite reflect this.

And if some imaginary dev really has a complete and polished small game ready for release - well, we leave in a rather free world, economically speaking. They are free to distribute the game whichever way they please within the boundaries of law. Equally, it is your choice whether or not to purchase it at all, and when to do so if there is a step-by-step release.

I do understand your previous point on devs making and not keeping promises, though. But - again - that's just a matter of the consumer's choice (and responsibility for the choice!) whether to take this risk or to avoid it.

 

[OffPathGames]

A sad reality about western game development is that currently we have 86 pages of completed games and 78 pages of games either abandoned or onhold.

Which means that statistically only 55% of the games currently being developed are going to be completed.

Rip many of your favorite games under development.

50% is a great rate - highter than the typical success rate of any startup business in the US. Remember, that most payment platforms won't support the type of games people like to play here with fetishes like rape. Many devs work for free or constantly have to change platforms. Even if you do get past those issues, the average payout is lower than the cost to make a normal video game. Outside of porn, $1 million is a small budget for a video game. Here $25k/year of dev is top 5%.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

You know Paypal tends to suspend every account related to porn and lewd creations as it goes against their

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, don't you? While Patreon, being a big fish, have agreements with them, thus allowing people use their Paypal accounts to pay for lewd content under Patreon's umbrella (and creators to get withdrawals from Patreon on their Paypal accounts as well)

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Nowhere in those ToS does it say porn is banned. What they do not allow is

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, which, just like everything else in rule 2, is an extension of their 1st rule not use their service to do anything illegal. The only reason porn game related accounts would get suspended is because the developer got way too many chargebacks. Looking at how many game devs behave, promising the world to get money and flaking out, I can believe that may be a common problem, but that is the system working as intended.

 

[moskyx]

Nowhere in those ToS does it say porn is banned. What they do not allow is

You must be registered to see the links

, which, just like everything else in rule 2, is an extension of their 1st rule not use their service to do anything illegal. The only reason porn game related accounts would get suspended is because the developer got way too many chargebacks. Looking at how many game devs behave, promising the world to get money and flaking out, I can believe that may be a common problem, but that is the system working as intended.

Erm... according to your wiki link, I'd say that graphic depictions of sexual acts that include cumshots may fall under the obscenity category (not to mention orgies and any other sexual act than doesn't involve a male-to-female vaginal-only penetration), but they have to be considered on a case-by-case basis due to the lack of a legal definition about what 'obscenity' is. Plus the point 2.(i) of PayPal Policy mentions a vague "certain sexually oriented materials or services" as an item subject to their prohibitions; again no one defines what is a "sexually oriented material", so basically it's another wildcard for them to delete whatever they want, and then you'll decide whether you want to claim justice and start a process against that decission.

So, the point stands. Having a paypal account for your lewd creations it's indeed risky as it can be suspended whenever they want (and not only due to chargebacks, it can only take a couple of people reporting your 'obscene' content because you give them a trolling answer on a pirate forum, go figure), so, again, taking advantage of Patreon's deal with them seems reasonable and convenient in exchange of their cut.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

Erm... according to your wiki link, I'd say that graphic depictions of sexual acts that include cumshots may fall under the obscenity category (not to mention orgies and any other sexual act than doesn't involve a male-to-female vaginal-only penetration), but they have to be considered on a case-by-case basis due to the lack of a legal definition about what 'obscenity' is. Plus the point 2.(i) of PayPal Policy mentions a vague "certain sexually oriented materials or services" as an item subject to their prohibitions; again no one defines what is a "sexually oriented material", so basically it's another wildcard for them to delete whatever they want, and then you'll decide whether you want to claim justice and start a process against that decission.

So, the point stands. Having a paypal account for your lewd creations it's indeed risky as it can be suspended whenever they want (and not only due to chargebacks, it can only take a couple of people reporting your 'obscene' content because you give them a trolling answer on a pirate forum, go figure), so, again, taking advantage of Patreon's deal with them seems reasonable and convenient in exchange of their cut.

The point does not stand. If you think Patreon is going to let you do something illegal on their platform you're crazy. As to the vague proscription against "sexually oriented materials or services," Patreon has

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. They may be considered less vague or more vague, certainly "glorifying sexual violence which includes bestiality and sexualization of minors" is about as clear as mud.

 

[moskyx]

The point does not stand. If you think Patreon going to let you do something illegal on their platform you're crazy. As to the vague proscription against "sexually oriented materials or services," Patreon has

You must be registered to see the links

. They may be considered less vague or more vague, certainly "glorifying sexual violence" about as clear as mud.

Wait, wait, wait. We're not talking about clearly illegal content, just about sex games. Porn is not illegal. That's why Paypal has to include the 'obscenity' clause to ban it entirely from their platform (as you well said, it can be a source of scams and excessive chargebacks). But the sexual content per se is not illegal unless we are talking about rape or CP. And they don't limit themselves to 'just porn', but to any kind of "sexually oriented material", to avoid litigations about nudes and what not. So everything sexual related is banned from PayPal, but that doesn't make it illegal. And, as Patreon has a different take regarding adult material, you can offer that content on Patreon (as long as you observe their own rules, of course) and benefit from working with PayPal, something you could not do operating by yourself.

Hope it makes more sense to you now.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

Wait, wait, wait. We're not talking about clearly illegal content, just about sex games. Porn is not illegal. That's why Paypal has to include the 'obscenity' clause to ban it entirely from their platform

Porn is not illegal, obscenity is. That is is why Paypal has to include the obscenity clause, because obscene is legal jargon and they are making it clear that they will not be party to any illegal activity. Otherwise do you think they would not come out and say "no porn" or "no sexually explicit material" so that there would be no ambiguity?

It sounds to me like you were tricked by someone or some people who wanted you to think Patreon is the only option.

 

[moskyx]

Porn is not illegal, obscenity is. That is is why Paypal has to include the obscenity clause, because obscene is legal jargon and they are making it clear that they will not be party to any illegal activity. Otherwise do you think they would not come out and say "no porn" or "no sexually explicit material" so that there would be no ambiguity?

It sounds to me like you were tricked by someone or some people who wanted you to think Patreon is the only option.

If PayPal would say "no porn", people could use it to sell nudes, yet they aren't. If PayPal would talk about "sexually explicit material", some people would try to sell "sexually implicit" material. So PayPal just go for "obscenity", that covers almost all, and then adds "sexually oriented", and not "explicit", just to be sure anything minimally lewd isn't allowed there.

Yes, obscenity is a legal jargon, but something being obscene doesn't mean it being illegal. Obscenity is not illegal, it's just a classification so the content under that label must comply with certain standards regarding distribution etc. I'm not American, I've only read the wiki article on it you posted and soft porn (no cumshot depicted) is not considered obscene material, but regular porn falls under that obscene category. And, as far as I know, porn is not illegal in the US.

Look, you made an uninformed claim saying devs should sell their lewd content directly on their own websites via PayPal. I'm just trying to explain to you why they aren't doing that, and why Patreon is a convenient option for everybody, as it allows selling adult material, and both buyers and sellers can use worldwide accepted payment processors like Paypal, Visa or Mastercard, which wouldn't be available for them if devs tried to sell their content outside Patreon. Is Patreon the only way to earn money, or the only option available? Obviously not. But it is the most convenient, as you only have to observe their rules and forget about all those payment processors cutting you off whenever they want. Now you can keep trying to defend your uninformed initial statement, or act like a normal, smart guy and consider that maybe things are the way they are for a reason.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Some misinformation is being spread here that might harm future devs reading this. If anyone sells their games directly through paypal, they are infringing their TOS and might get their funds locked and taken away without any notice.

As an exemple, you can just look at the story

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. They were funded via kikstarter, followed their rules as well as steam rules, but paypal just locked their account last year, and last week took away the thousands of dollars left in the locked developers account, thet they had gathered through the help of generous supporters. Paypal just took

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away.

Patreon, on the other hand, has an

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with paypal that lets adult creators fund their projects in their platform, as long as they follow pateon's TOS. That safety is worthy of the

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(not 10% like said before).

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

As an exemple, you can just look at the story

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.

Kairi is a young and cheerful girl

Would you look at that, sexualization of minors. Seems like something both Paypal and Patreon would take a dim view of.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Would you look at that, sexualization of minors. Seems like something both Paypal and Patreon would take a dim view of.

That particular game example does not sexualise minors. It was accepted on both steam and kickstarter that have equally strong policies against that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. This is information for anyone else reading this thread that might get wrong information and get screwd.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

That particular game example does not sexualise minors. It was accepted on both steam and kickstarter that have equally strong policies against that.

That is a downright hilarious thing to claim considering that Steam

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that are banned HERE on grounds of rule 7. Stop spreading disinformation.

 

[fidless]

That is a downright hilarious thing to claim considering that Steam

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You must be registered to see the links

that are banned HERE on grounds of rule 7. Stop spreading disinformation.

You're wrong, accept it. PayPal does not allow transactions that include sexually oriented materials.
That's why even erotic booksellers are banned from using Paypal as a money transaction platform.

Whatever you write next, I know 100% multiple devs who got banned just for that and those reasons.
You can also read TOS or just scout the internet to confirm that.

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was banned because it was money for adult content. You're falsely interpreting what kind of game it is to justify your false information.

 

[moskyx]

Let's hope hypothethical devs reading this thread have a little more reading comprehension and brains to detect the real disinformation is being vomited here

 

[fidless]

Dagoth Urgers Instead of facepalming, you should read TOS.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

Dagoth Urgers Instead of facepalming, you should read TOS.

View attachment 1607639

Perhaps you should read it instead, then you might discover why it has little relevance to developers looking for donations.

 

[fidless]

Perhaps you should read it instead, then you might discover why it has little relevance to developers looking for donations.

Whatever you trying to prove here, in the real world devs getting banned for using PayPal doing adult content transactions.
It is a well-known thing in devs circles, but you don't care for the truth even if your disinformation can hurt others.

 

[Dagoth Urgers]

Whatever you trying to prove here, in the real world devs getting banned for using PayPal to do adult content transactions.
It is a well-known thing in devs circles, but you don't care for the truth even if your disinformation can hurt others.

Yes, I am not at all surprised that that particular bit of disinformation is well-circulated among the creator community. It's a very lucrative lie to tell. On an unrelated note, that's a neat logo underneath your like counter.