Kormk
Newbie
- Mar 17, 2020
- 60
- 141
- 201
New devs definitely don't have much of a chance, but I don't mean new devs to be honest; supporting new devs is basically angel investing, and it's risky. But there are a lot of devs who have been working on their games for years as a hobby and don't have enough support.
But it's not that simple, because not everyone wants to work on their game full time, so it happens that some people get support and it doesn't change anything. So it's definitely important to know if that particular support is an investment or just a way to show appreciation/buy a wallpaper/get a discord role. And it can be really hard and annoying to be reactive with support, subbing and unsubbing endlessly based on author performance. But I know for sure that encouraging games like "wallpapers, please"(Summertime saga) that make $62K - $178K a month is not the way to see more real games, nor is it the way to speed up the development process.
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I'm speaking more specifically about devs that are doing it full time that had an initial roadmap that lured in subscribers but doesn't honor it. I'm not talking missing a deadline here and there, but repeatingly doing so, or steering away from the content they said they were going to do without sufficient notification and/or explanation of the new proposed idea. If that dev just simply deleted evidence of the first roadmap, the only people that would know the difference are the early subscribers, but the dev spent x amount of years making money on a different concept without actually completing a product. If a dev is making a game as a hobby, in contrast, then it should be very obvious on their page that it is a donation to the hobby a subscriber is giving and not a investment into a finished project.
Not sure how to implement something like that to be honest. Patreon doesn't care as long as they get money. People on F95, for example, can potentially fill that role, and they partially do (just look at the reviews), but I don't think it's enough. It would be nice if this forum could be a point of clarification to save time and money.
How to make this better is a tough question, because I don't think it really solves the global problem I mentioned: this whole industry is underpaid. By making it clearer when a full-time developer misses all deadlines or changes the roadmap, you're not bringing more money into the industry, you're doing the opposite for the sake of quality. It's basically min-maxing something that doesn't even work.
But it can save a lot of money and even potentially slap lazy devs. The problem is to even identify who is a full-time dev and who isn't, who changed the roadmap and who didn't even have one to begin with. We are still talking about indie devs, and most of them work alone, even if they are full-time. The best-case scenario here is for a dev and the community to talk to each other to set the expectations.
After thinking about it, I believe it would make much more sense for now to do the opposite: if a developer delivers updates, doesn't miss deadlines, shows results - he gets some kind of advertising benefit.
Having benefits versus deficits is definitely a good way to go, but again, that is free ad space that is being given up which someone has to pay for, and patreon never will.
One option that might at least add transparency is if a dev has to select milestones and dates at the start of the project, and if that milestone is missed by a certain amount, than there is a unremovable notification that is posted in the patreon indicating it. So it doesn't monetarily hurt the dev, and if there is a good reason for it, than it can give a chance for them to explain it and then it will be up to the patreon to consider it's validity. For those devs that had a project going for a veeeeeery long time, those notifications will be littered within the path and patreons can see all the promises and expectations that were broken along the way which would influence their decision to subscribe so a dev can't just sweep it under the rug.
At the end of the day, I truly understand game development is hard and filled with unexpected issues. I'm not a game dev myself, but I personally know one that have been involved with big projects in real companies and the amount of stress and pressure in enormous. But, when a project is approaching 10 years and the dev is spending more time deleting past comments he made himself and banning users that point this out than seemingly working on the game, we have a big problem of ethics, and I feel there is starting to become a catalog of devs that fall into this category.
Is there a way to view the gallery? I tried to unlock it with cheats but nothing happened. Playing 0.15.1
Is there a file I can download with all the stuff?
Is there a file I can download with all the stuff?
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It sounds great on paper, but it's hard to put into practice. As I said, it would be nice to have something like this here on F95, in some sort of dev notes that could be handled by the community for the community. For example, Bryn's dev notes look good; it could be even better with some patreon screenshots with dates, sticky messages, etc. And all of this regulated by community; a dev wiki page, so to speak.
I think part of the problem with ethics is the lack of community backlash. If people are okay with being bossed around by a dev, there is no reason for the dev to change. This is why I don't like discord echo chambers. At least vel got slapped for being an ass, but he literally asked for it. But it often doesn't happen, and people are fine with radio silence, lies, missed deadlines. That's why it's important to talk about it and call out the devs.
Community backlash can be helpful, but like you said with the echo chamber in discord, the dev might always only get praise on their discord (especially because they ban who they please) while f95 might be the only place people can voice their opinions that isn't heavily moderated by the dev themselves, resulting in a sort of tribalism between the f95 folk (whom the dev considers trolls) against the discord server which the critics consider to be full of dev ass kissers.
In the last 5 months or so I've taken to being a lot more vocal and critical on f95 due to my frustrations with long term devs, but although it's cathartic in sense, it's largely pointless as the dev will just turn to his discord and spin any criticism as trolling, and then it's back to status quo of doing the same thing. I think a project like Saria is a bit different, for as far as I can tell, there hasn't ever been something resembling a complete game, making it very obvious to patreons what they're getting into, but some other project had a decent playable demo for years and years that can be difficult to time stamp due to the "versions" (aka minor updates that give the illusion of progress). I know people are already salty with Patreon's new non-con rules in terms of regulating creative expression (I am too), and more regulation can be destructive and not helpful, but as it stands there isn't any checks and balances besides the amount of subs a dev has, which can be artificially inflated through lies and smoke and mirrors of the state of a project. Good conversation in any case, though.
Rakasob
Member
- Apr 13, 2019
- 237
- 552
- 220
Bro should just get a real job, he obviously doesn't have the will or the work ethic to work independently. Maybe a wagie boss yelling at him will improve his attitude.
View attachment fakecels.mp4
View attachment fakecels.mp4
Anyone on here got a save from 0.15 they'd be willing to share? I want to mess around with some stuff.
Anita Deek
Member
- Feb 14, 2018
- 299
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Polyushko
Newbie
- Jun 12, 2017
- 71
- 93
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at this point I might as well steal the guy's entire code and try to remake the game in a new artsyle lmao
DemonLord98
Well-Known Member
- Oct 11, 2019
- 1,003
- 1,225
- 319
Lol, what? The guys art is amazing. It's his coding that is shit.....so why?
BigBiggieBig
Member
- Jan 6, 2019
- 357
- 1,047
- 287
You'll end up with trash code and a new unknown artstyle. Better to just make your own code along with the art, the forbidden technique of making a new game.
If you meant you wanted to continue in the same setting using the same character then I don't know what the situation would be like, can't imagine you'd get in much trouble for making slight alterations to both and shipping it out as something new. Though I'm fairly certain his loyal fans would just swarm you for that transgression.
Polyushko
Newbie
- Jun 12, 2017
- 71
- 93
- 117
Very likely lmao. I'm not a good artist, but yeah, that makes sense. I will see what horrid project I can get out of it just for the fun of it, just to train myself using Godot Engine. I will not even milk the patreons since at this point I just want chaos
- Feb 4, 2020
- 17
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LOL, you wanna too?
I have already begun remaking the game in Unity and hope to release some demos or an MVP this summer. If I remember correctly, Velmith mentioned in a Discord post that he allows the use of his Saria assets for our own needs. The voice actor has been mentioned in the credits. All that's left is to hire an artist who can continue Vel's style, and I think I have found one.
I have plans to add new story chapters, scenes, and a quest/dialogue & scene constructor. There will also be controller and Android support (and possibly Mac & iOS support later); translation support; and Lovesense toys support (with shared/created user profiles, since I am new to tweaking and creating profiles).
The quest/scenes constructor will allow users to add a new NPC with their own dialogues, choices, requirements, and scenes to enhance future game replayability through community content. You may create and save scenes using existing sprites, VAs, SFX, or import your own. Dialogues and scripts can be implemented via Ink file imports, where you can write phrases, logic, use sprites, audio files, and more. A wiki or guide will be included.
But first, I aim to complete a 0.15.2 game state in Unity, and later extend the game with such a constructor/builder and new levels/plots, monsters/enemies, NPCs, and a better corruption/fame system that will impact game flow. Overall, Vel’s game idea was awesome; it’s sad that he has abandoned the game.
Any way, if you want to create Godot remake, be ready to write a lot of code. Game contains a lot of stuff:
- 2D movement
- Dialog system
- Save system
- A lot of stats with buffs/debuffs and requirements
- Several tilemap levels
- Interactive objects and NPCs
- Layered images (you need to compose CG, by overlaying Base body, guys, face, coom and etc)
- Connect Scene with SFX / VA
- Inventory system
- Mouse only mode (with NavMesh or Pathfinding navigation on click)
- Card or RPG battles
- Fight with monitor resolutions
- Dig, Extract & process RPG maker assets from origin game (including VFX from RPG Maker & cutting sprite sheets into animations and extracting dialog texts and existing code for some features writen in JS or RPG Maker switches)
- Solve a lot of bugs during development
v0.16
I remade the game from scratch
Every time I check if there was any progress on this game, it gets remade from scratch again.
You can't make this shit up.
NoHands
Member
- Feb 4, 2018
- 259
- 292
- 248
Honestly, I think the way the dev wrote that update is what helped fuel the anger towards them. It kinda comes off as him laughing and going 'What are you gonna do about it?'.
Do you think we'd be allowed to donate on Subscribestar/Patreon/whatever once you have a playable enough build?