Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]

[issue28]

Like you said. Those are my gripes with the game. For a corruption game with a NTR optional path Rowan feel way to weak and not satisfying as an MC. There just too much dumped on him for it to come out as a credible victor in the non-cuck path of the game. The way i see it is this. He should be powerless in the NTR path, it's a given. He should be dumped upon on the pure path, given he is resisting corruption against the demon twins, but should have the glimers of hope, the making of plans to turn the tables. BUT in the full corruption path he should be a bad ass. The more corrupt he gets the more powerful he gets. At least that's my two cents on it.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Okay. We're looking at more ways to do stuff about that. I'm not totally happy with the finale of Rastedel, nor am I happy with the Helayna claiming, which was one of the more egregious moments. Me and DM recently went back and allowed players more dominant options at the Dark Elf sequence.

Some of our other future goals include:

- Making the process of gaining allies more satisfying
- Going back over the fall of Raeve Keep and making the Helayna claiming sequence feel more like something Rowan has agency over.
- Going back over the intro and making Rowan's capture potentially more dynamic
- At least one more pass over Rastedel, hopefully giving Rowan a bit more agency there as well.

There is still work to do on the subject, and we don't think it will be 100% enough to please everyone. But, we are taking steps to examine the content and potentially allow players more options of expressing themselves through power.

Though, not by killing/dominating the twins in Act 1. Obviously.

 

[errte13]

Well, MC is just a little above average man rather than some tactical genius or fighting genius, he's not going to bust a foolproof plan to take down the twins, he's probably looking for ways to gain the upper hand, bit by bit and it starts with the huge orc camp, then Rastedel.

The story not giving an edge to Rowan at this point is sensical to me, for one it sets the tone, and two, we're still at the beginning of the whole story I believe. We have yet to reach the "meat" of the story, so you feeling that MC isn't doing much to win is more connected to the story not progressed enough rather than a mistake in the narration.

 

[issue28]

Though, not by killing/dominating the twins in Act 1. Obviously.

I agree, of course not... but if that status quo stays the same until let's say 75-80% of the complete game then that thing about being to much to have a satisfying victory over them becomes through. Things must change for him otherwise it will feel like the end of Mass Effect 3. Out of nowhere and not at all satisfying.

Well, MC is just a little above average man rather than some tactical genius or fighting genius, he's not going to bust a foolproof plan to take down the twins, he's probably looking for ways to gain the upper hand, bit by bit and it starts with the huge orc camp, then Rastedel.

The story not giving an edge to Rowan at this point is sensical to me, for one it sets the tone, and two, we're still at the beginning of the whole story I believe. We have yet to reach the "meat" of the story, so you feeling that MC isn't doing much to win is more connected to the story not progressed enough rather than a mistake in the narration.

But you forget that Rowan is supposed to be this bad ass fighter that killed the twins father, the baddest demon of them all. Not saying he should do that from the begging, he had help, but he should be enough of a monster to start moving things along that path if you choose so.

 

[T51bwinterized]

I agree, of course not... but if that status quo stays the same until let's say 75-80% of the complete game then that thing about being to much to have a satisfying victory over them becomes through. Things must change for him otherwise it will feel like the end of Mass Effect 3. Out of nowhere and not at all satisfying.


But you forget that Rowan is supposed to be this bad ass fighter that killed the twins father, the baddest demon of them all. Not saying he should do that from the begging, he had help, but he should be enough of a monster to start moving things along that path if you choose so.

Yes, we are taking steps to address the question of Rowan and the Twins. From the start of Act 2, there will be changes to add both narrative and mechanical dimensions to Rowan's increased level of power within the castle. We've been debating how best to properly build up to it. But, we've been having conversations internally about avoiding a Mass Effect 3 style scenario.

Rowan is neither a totally normal dude nor is he an absolute mastermind. He's somewhere in between. He didn't kill Karnas in single combat. He was just one of the leaders responsible for the push to victory. He got the role of hero first and foremost for his role in the seige of Karst, and for his role in the campaign north to Bloodmeen.

 

[errte13]

I'd describe Rowan as trained and experienced fighter (but still within the realm of normal person, unlike some shounen protagonist), and have a flexible mind and willingness to do dirty deeds. He won't win by fighting with the sword against the twins, but his tactical mind is his most precious weapon to overthrow them.

I wonder if Goblins are going to be a major power in Rowan's winning, they do worship his dirty side after all, and both are like the under dog XD

 

[T51bwinterized]

I'd describe Rowan as trained and experienced fighter (but still within the realm of normal person, unlike some shounen protagonist), and have a flexible mind and willingness to do dirty deeds. He won't win by fighting with the sword against the twins, but his tactical mind is his most precious weapon to overthrow them.

I wonder if Goblins are going to be a major power in Rowan's winning, they do worship his dirty side after all, and both are like the under dog XD

If Rowan tried to kill either twin with a sword, he'd just die. It would be brutal. Also, the answer is potentially. Goblins will be a major faction in this game, both because of Cla-Min and because the still inocomplete goblin quest.

 

[issue28]

I think we all agree that we cannot kill the twins simple and from the begging. But there should be a path in which Rowan fights back and is clear that he fights back. For me i think that the best one is corrupted Rowan path. He fights back at the twins with their own weapon. For me, a corrupted Rowan path, is a path in which he gains and gains power, and is pro active about it. And maybe half way in the game he gains the twins respect and becomes equal to them and from there it would be easier to kill/dominate them. Again this is just my opinion on the matter.

 

[jadezz]

Personally I have to agree about the helayna part. But I don't feel like that the claiming sequence is too much more like the conclusion. In my opinion there is no real happy ending for her yet. The "happiest" ending imo is if you tell her you love her and keep her as your own. Every path keeps her in a cockhungry state so neither helping her to escape nor Alexia helping her cures her and I just assume sooner or later she will succumb to her urges. Really like the alexia after helayna ecape events on the ntr route but it feels bad to lose helayna in the process. Would be nice to get her back later. But changing the claiming / including additional stuff could change the conclusion event too (for example not giving her the ring) so no worries here on my part.

Have to disagree about the greyhide part as even in the ntr path he always feels like shit after betraying his friendship with rowan and Alexia always has to be the one to seduce him. So he still feels like a real bro... even after fucking my wife

Rowan doesn't feel too weak for now imo as if he was "stronger" he wouldn't even have a reason to follow the twins. He only feels weak if you want him to be weak (ntr path).

And I get that the story is still in it's early stages (even though it sounds kinda ridiculous for a game with dozens of hours of gameplay to be in it's ealy stages). So I just personally assumed these parts of the story are still far from done. So there is still a lot of room to get revenge bit by bit on the twins too. Like slowly corrupting jezera by giving her headpats or stealing andras's cake from the fridge.

Overall love the whole story so far.

 

[AlexWildfire]

Throwing my at into this ring. Bought the game on steam, keep coming here for the discussions and because i am impatient so.. "Do what you want cause a pirate is free" or something like that.

I cant really see where the issue above 27 is seeing so much problems with Rowan's power, i have not done much of the ntr stuff, but i cant really say that Rowan feels weak, he "can" , if dice allows, battle against an orc champion in the arena and win, he does manage to hurt Adras in a point and there aren't really any npcs that come to mind that go after Alexia other than the red brute we all love to desire to see have his but kicked.

I have to say i agree, in some sense, with the idea that Rowan does not get a good amount of power to do much in terms off revenge or getting something palpable from acts of defiance.
Using Rastandel has an example, the werden route, i admit, i bitch and moaned here about how much i disliked it, so i shall try to use this example in a better way, not getting something big or immediate from that makes sense, its the first arc and all. But at the same time, it goes to great extremes to punish the players effort in getting there, and shows little reward, yes, a vague "that will help in the future because now there is a resistance" can try and show that its not a purely punishment for players who think a game called seeds of chaos can have a "even lesser evil route", but it does not make it better. In immediate and medium term times it just becomes a bad deal. A lesser evil Rowan can still save delane, corrupt praticia or put jackes in charge,get the daughter of werden has a slave and more or less have more of the city under control and someone who might be with him in the distant betrayal of the twis. that is close to 3 "good things" . A werden route Rowan has delane turned into a latex husk, the efforts to rescue her be for nothing, gets nothing for said efforts and gets no closer to anything. I believe most will go with lesser evil in that situation.

Now, do i believe Rowan should be sucessfull and recieve everything in that route? No, that would not make sense, do i belive he should get something more that a vague unlock of resistance content? I do, something to show the player Rowan is learning better that just take everything that could go wrong and making it go wrong, maybe he gets better insight on how the sister (i forget how to write her name) spie network works, at least something better than "we always knew that you did x", its not out of this world to imagine that lady delane appearing in the city after mysteriously escaping can be pointed at "the hero did it". But it just seems..strange that Rowan did not see that one coming, the sister prety much has "i belive i am a master of spies and intrigue" writen on her.

Al that said, has a whole the story is good one route does not change the rest.

Finishing in a question, will the goblins and the orciad lines be mutialy exclusive or will Rowan be able to recruit both groups?

 

[T51bwinterized]

Throwing my at into this ring. Bought the game on steam, keep coming here for the discussions and because i am impatient so.. "Do what you want cause a pirate is free" or something like that.

I cant really see where the issue above 27 is seeing so much problems with Rowan's power, i have not done much of the ntr stuff, but i cant really say that Rowan feels weak, he "can" , if dice allows, battle against an orc champion in the arena and win, he does manage to hurt Adras in a point and there aren't really any npcs that come to mind that go after Alexia other than the red brute we all love to desire to see have his but kicked.

I have to say i agree, in some sense, with the idea that Rowan does not get a good amount of power to do much in terms off revenge or getting something palpable from acts of defiance.
Using Rastandel has an example, the werden route, i admit, i bitch and moaned here about how much i disliked it, so i shall try to use this example in a better way, not getting something big or immediate from that makes sense, its the first arc and all. But at the same time, it goes to great extremes to punish the players effort in getting there, and shows little reward, yes, a vague "that will help in the future because now there is a resistance" can try and show that its not a purely punishment for players who think a game called seeds of chaos can have a "even lesser evil route", but it does not make it better. In immediate and medium term times it just becomes a bad deal. A lesser evil Rowan can still save delane, corrupt praticia or put jackes in charge,get the daughter of werden has a slave and more or less have more of the city under control and someone who might be with him in the distant betrayal of the twis. that is close to 3 "good things" . A werden route Rowan has delane turned into a latex husk, the efforts to rescue her be for nothing, gets nothing for said efforts and gets no closer to anything. I believe most will go with lesser evil in that situation.

Now, do i believe Rowan should be sucessfull and recieve everything in that route? No, that would not make sense, do i belive he should get something more that a vague unlock of resistance content? I do, something to show the player Rowan is learning better that just take everything that could go wrong and making it go wrong, maybe he gets better insight on how the sister (i forget how to write her name) spie network works, at least something better than "we always knew that you did x", its not out of this world to imagine that lady delane appearing in the city after mysteriously escaping can be pointed at "the hero did it". But it just seems..strange that Rowan did not see that one coming, the sister prety much has "i belive i am a master of spies and intrigue" writen on her.

Al that said, has a whole the story is good one route does not change the rest.

Finishing in a question, will the goblins and the orciad lines be mutialy exclusive or will Rowan be able to recruit both groups?

Ideally, we'd like doing both to be possible, but challenging to do under the game's time constraints.

 

[martinlongbow]

You are being ironic guess but that's how it is. Rowan is a pathetic little cuck that gets dumped on by almost everyone. Sure he takes out his frustrations on the ocasional random encounter in the woods but where it counts he is sissy bitch getting shit on by everyone, even those who are supposed to be his friends like Greyhide. When he will eventually turn the tables it won't be at all satisfying given the amount of stuff that he went through. The only way that would be satisfying is if ACT 2 starts with him beheading the Brother and enslaving the sister, or enslaving them both, and returning the abuse he got tenfold. Or... just admit this is an NTR game and then the way Rowan and what happens to him is written makes all the sense in the world and it is how it supposed to be.

Thanks, Yeah i am with you on this one. If you already have a cuck path at least in the other path make Rowan dominant over the twins

 

[manscout]

It is outside my purview since I mostly only play as a good guy, but I think a potentially good way of making the corrupted route feel good for people who want a more "empowering" experience would be to gradually change how the Twins treat Rowan during their events.

I think the issue right now is that the Twins entire fetish most of the time is about trying to break Rowan, I can understand how that would be amusing to them in routes where Rowan either is trying to hold on to the goodness in him or gets off to being broken, but in routes where Rowan is embracing the corruption I feel it might come off as needlessly adversarial. A dynamic where they are more genuinely interested in tutoring him into their evil ways rather than having every situation be some "carrot and stick" game where they keep threatening and creating uncomfortable situations for Rowan would probably appeal more to the type of player that is interested in the "corrupted" route.

On the subject of revenge, I do feel people aren't satisfied with the corrupted playthrough because Rowan can only really lash out against meaningless characters, I understand direct and satisfiying revenge against the Twins will have to be something more long term, but it can be frustrating nonetheless. I think maybe an idea would be to have Rowan take revenge on some servants of the Twins, shallow characters that won't really be interesting as potential allies for being too loyal to the Twins but that Rowan can mess with to indirectly get back at the Twins.

I think an interesting way of looking at the different routes (corrupted Rowan, submissive Rowan, pure Rowan) is to think of them as ways Rowan tries to find to cope with his suffering. A corrupted Rowan tries to numb his pain by becoming increasingly uncaring and ruthless. A submissive Rowan tries to find a way to confuse his pain into pleasure. And a pure Rowan should ideally find a way to make peace with his pain (lots of potential ways of approaching this, a more stoic Rowan, a buddhist Rowan, etc), point is, the result needs to be a Rowan that manages to resist the pain by deriving greater happiness from the good he manages to create. Note that I'm not saying a pure Rowan should be a melodramatic masochistic Rowan, he still needs to find faith that he is creating SOME good so he has something to help him stave off his suffering, so SOME positive reinforcement is required (looking at you Werden's route).

 

[Nym85]

I think that from the start of Act 2, a corrupt Rowan route should have a VERY different balance between Rowan and the Twins. Largely because with a corrupt Rowan it fast becomes obvious that Rowan can be far more faithful to their god's dogma than they ever are. I'd love if the High Priest eventually teaches some magic to Rowan so he can eventually bind Andras and Jezera (or bind one and kill the other).

 

[gogliagoop]

Might have been already asked but do we know if there will be anymore scenes with Greyhide in future updates?
I find the relationship (and scenes!) with Alexia brilliant, but with the rewrite of the tea scenes it hints at this might be closed?

 

[T51bwinterized]

It is not closed.

 

[Semantics]

Since it's everybody-chime-in time.

I've written out my issues with the Werden route of Rastedel in regards to the final post-Rastedel scene, but the end scene in that path that isn't my only issue there. (Nor are Alex's comments toward payoff, which I honestly agree with. Oh look, two "allies" against the twins, one who wants to at-best jail Rowan after it's all over, the other who probably wouldn't mind killing him before then if she got the chance and has a past of screwing over the efforts against the twins multiple times for her own ends.)

There aren't many times where Rowan actively tries to screw with the twin's plans or actually make his own. Right now I'd say it comes down to choosing Werden in Rastedel, choosing to corrupt Patricia in Rastedel by himself, trying to secure Cliohna to Rowan's side, helping Delane escape, and helping Helayna escape. I don't thiiiiiink I'm really missing any others, beyond exceedingly minor "Don't give them this pocket change" level stuff? None of these forms a plan beyond a vague goal of "get allies."

The last two are debatable. Non-Werden path Delane seems like she won't be a help since she retreats off to some family friends, calling Rowan a coward while Rowan rebuffs any opportunity for her to help, and Werden path Delane doesn't end up helping Rowan either beyond being an in to Werden's path. Helping Helayna escape might help Rowan down the line, but it's not like she's presented as a notably great warrior, cunning tactician, or influential noble, and the corruption of the ring and her uncle put the damper on what measure of those she could bring. And losing her certainly doesn't cost the twins anything. Choosing Werden and choosing Patricia are obviously opposing choices. This means it could be argued that there are only two real ways to attempt to rebel against the twins in any given playthrough, trying to win over Cliohna and who Rowan supports in Rastedel. This will obviously probably change as more castle characters are fleshed out, but is mostly a lead up to my next point:

One of the few big things Rowan can do to try to set up things against the twins is to support Werden, and it's the only method to do so in Rastedel if Rowan isn't corrupt (Unless you trust Jacques will have anyone's back but his own. Good luck.), except it's so totally vague that the player doesn't even know HOW Rowan plans for this to all go down until it actually, well, does go down. The most informed the player can be for this choice are vague "Werden is the most capable of pushing back against the twins" type statements, and those come AFTER the decision has been made. To a lesser extent, the same is true of Patricia. The fact that Rowan could corrupt her instead of the twins doesn't really become an idea in Rowan's head until it, well, does. In fact, in the text immediately after choosing her, Rowan internally states that he wouldn't be able to do it and that it would only hand the Twins more power. And again, only brought up AFTER the choice anyway.

TLDR: Nearly half of the current actions to fight the twins end up feeling like the equivalent of spitting in their food (Which Jezera might well get off on anyway), and some of the other actions are mutually exclusive and feel less like a concrete plan Rowan and the player work on and more like the player making choices with limited information of what Rowan is actually planning.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Since it's everybody-chime-in time.

I've written out my issues with the Werden route of Rastedel in regards to the final post-Rastedel scene, but the end scene in that path that isn't my only issue there. (Nor are Alex's comments toward payoff, which I honestly agree with. Oh look, two "allies" against the twins, one who wants to at-best jail Rowan after it's all over, the other who probably wouldn't mind killing him before then if she got the chance and has a past of screwing over the efforts against the twins multiple times for her own ends.)

There aren't many times where Rowan actively tries to screw with the twin's plans or actually make his own. Right now I'd say it comes down to choosing Werden in Rastedel, choosing to corrupt Patricia in Rastedel by himself, trying to secure Cliohna to Rowan's side, helping Delane escape, and helping Helayna escape. I don't thiiiiiink I'm really missing any others, beyond exceedingly minor "Don't give them this pocket change" level stuff? None of these forms a plan beyond a vague goal of "get allies."

The last two are debatable. Non-Werden path Delane seems like she won't be a help since she retreats off to some family friends, calling Rowan a coward while Rowan rebuffs any opportunity for her to help, and Werden path Delane doesn't end up helping Rowan either beyond being an in to Werden's path. Helping Helayna escape might help Rowan down the line, but it's not like she's presented as a notably great warrior, cunning tactician, or influential noble, and the corruption of the ring and her uncle put the damper on what measure of those she could bring. And losing her certainly doesn't cost the twins anything. Choosing Werden and choosing Patricia are obviously opposing choices. This means it could be argued that there are only two real ways to attempt to rebel against the twins in any given playthrough, trying to win over Cliohna and who Rowan supports in Rastedel. This will obviously probably change as more castle characters are fleshed out, but is mostly a lead up to my next point:

One of the few big things Rowan can do to try to set up things against the twins is to support Werden, and it's the only method to do so in Rastedel if Rowan isn't corrupt (Unless you trust Jacques will have anyone's back but his own. Good luck.), except it's so totally vague that the player doesn't even know HOW Rowan plans for this to all go down until it actually, well, does go down. The most informed the player can be for this choice are vague "Werden is the most capable of pushing back against the twins" type statements, and those come AFTER the decision has been made. To a lesser extent, the same is true of Patricia. The fact that Rowan could corrupt her instead of the twins doesn't really become an idea in Rowan's head until it, well, does. In fact, in the text immediately after choosing her, Rowan internally states that he wouldn't be able to do it and that it would only hand the Twins more power. And again, only brought up AFTER the choice anyway.

TLDR: Nearly half of the current actions to fight the twins end up feeling like the equivalent of spitting in their food (Which Jezera might well get off on anyway), and some of the other actions are mutually exclusive and feel less like a concrete plan Rowan and the player work on and more like the player making choices with limited information of what Rowan is actually planning.

- We have not shown the full consequences of the choice to help Helayna escape.
- If Rowan helps Delane escape, the tribe is damaged in substantial ways. As a consequence the twins are left weaker in all circumstances. This will be shown more clearly in Act 2 when we have a proper "military situation" screen.
- Tarish (on her route), Jacques, Delane (Ulcro's route), are all personally loyal to Rowan instead of the twins as well.
- The Goblin Recruitment arc is not in the game yet and is set to come. Most of the castle staff event chains are not done yet.

Smaller note. Rastedel is almost certainly going to have a mini-rework down the line. Beyond a few narrative problems, it needs more interactivity.

 

[diebesgrab]

For my part, I see Rowan’s “power level” as fine.

As others have mentioned, he’s not really meant to be a hugely overpowered individual—he’s a tactician, a leader of men, and a trickster, but not the absolute best man with a blade and certainly no mage. I like that the writers went that direction—it gives a realistic base for his powerlessness in the beginning which is the basis for the plot, and it makes for a protagonist who has to do something other than just “train harder” or “yell harder” in order to achieve meaningful victory, paths that are already all too common in fiction.

Cliohna, who I assume would know, and unnamed others in Rowan’s backstory already tested Rowan for magical potential and found him entirely lacking. Again, I find that interesting. Too often in fantasy, magic is set up as being severely overpowered—those wielding it with any skill and possessed of any foresight can overcome and even trivialize any mundane challenge or challenger. I like the idea of an entirely nonmagical protagonist who will eventually grow in mundane competence to the point where he can topple the most powerful mages of his time. If I’m remembering (and reading) Cliohna’s arc correctly, Rowan may even possess some talent in overcoming magic targeted at him.

I further see Rowan’s skills and situation as suiting a third kind of leadership; one apart from that represented by the official human governments and Solansia, as well as that represented by twins and (perhaps?) Kharos. Rowan, at least at the point by which we first meet him, did not lead because he was stronger or more powerful than those he led, nor because he had any inherited authority—he led by virtue of his competence. He tries to twist the meaning of “might makes right” to reflect that, if he chooses that path in the post-Raeve sequence, but it’s fairly clear the twins and other “adherents” of chaos don’t quite see the philosophy the same way he does, even though Rowan tries to convince them. Rowan could certainly progress down certain other paths of leadership depending on player choice, but it seems like the story so far has set some relatively hard limits on him that he’ll have to be clever to overcome, instead of simply powering up.

And while all this has given us a Rowan without a great deal of agency in the first act, I again see this as fine for a three act game, though I can understand some frustration with the pacing of reaching a point where Rowan can act more decisively. I feel like the three acts gives Rowan’s character arc, regardless of which direction the player takes him, three separate portions (though obviously each would have to lead into the next). It makes sense to have him just getting his feet under him in his new situation during the first part—perhaps trying a little to flex his muscles only to get smacked down for it. The second act should be where Rowan begins to find ways around his bonds, ways to undermine or defy his captors or the human authorities of the wider world, tools and allies to support him against more powerful foes—that sort of thing. The third act would then be the crunch, where the bulk of Rowan’s planning comes into action the main conflict with whoever Rowan chose to fight comes into play, and where the player sees whether their decisions have paid off. It’s a long path to get to a victorious Rowan, assuming that’s where the player is trying to get, but conflicts that are solved instantaneously through the protagonist’s natural talents or deus ex machina don’t tend to be inherently interesting.

 

[Nym85]

I mean it definitely makes sense that he will have no arcane magic. If he did, he'd know by now. But Divine magic comes from Faith. Maybe he never had sufficient faith in Solansia before (and he never considered Kharos). But I think that especially with corrupt Rowan, he may actually gain substantial faith towards Kharos over the course of his journey especially when it comes to a disgust towards the classist approach to society that Solansia fosters. Ultimately everything that went wrong, went wrong because of her church elevating and justifying useless nobles' authority. So it would make sense for him to gain some power.

Ofc he doesn't need magic because his wife has it. I'd expect that by act 3, Alexia can grow to become dangerous as a magic user and if Rowan has her support that covers the power difference with the twins. What we do need is a path to corrupt Alexia via Rowan so that she doesn't need to have faith in one of the twins but I think that is being worked on.