Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.05 Dev] [Vénus Noire]

[ThatOldDudeFromMorrowind]

Man what a great game this is! I didn't expect it to have so much content and decisions, it's awesome. I came (heh) here to ask for the Che-Lin path but I'm seeing it isn't finished yet so I guess I'll wait until it gets updated then

Btw is there an ending to the main quest already on the works? I don't want to put pressure on the devs or anything, just asking.

Tho' if you ask me, I think it would be wise to work on an "sketch" or basic ending/s than to keep working and being "sidetracked" with all the, well, "side" quests. I think that's what some dev teams do, finishing the mq first (basic and bland) and then rework it to make it better or to add aditional, better endings&quests in further updates.

 

[Geigi]

Does this game have a female protagonist at all?

 

[ffive]

Does this game have a female protagonist at all?

The game has two protagonists, although Alexia's role is relatively smaller and doesn't extend to events on world map. Nevertheless she has her own plotlines which the player can control from her POV.

 

[bobbybrownlove]

one important detail though: you have to have Rowan on low corruption, otherwise the matriarch won't be friendly to you and you'll never befriend the slave.




"> - One new Helayna event (with one new sex scene, Orcs x Helayna)
...
> - The Rowan helps Helayna escape event has been edited to bring it in line with the rest of the new Helayna content"

yo what? at first i was thinking where a orc scene, a new one at that, would even make sense.
now with the information that helayna gets a escape rewrite, i'm interested if the new scene is made for that, or something completely different.
nevertheless i'm excited!

"> - One new Fae Arc event (with one sex scene with two variant paths, Rowan x Whitescar or Whitescar x Rowan)"

how this is written implies it's either rowan or whitescar on top. damn! now i do might have to go with the good fae

"> - One sex scene has been added to the Liurial Arc finale (Rowan x Liural & Alexia)"

ah good. that sounds promising. because how it ended till now, alexia was pretty much sidelined.

Gotcha, thank you! No wonder ive never seen that bit. Always play high corruption rowan. I thought for sure i exhausted all the explore the camp options. Next run low corruption time!

 

[bobbybrownlove]

What is the context behind Helayna/Orcs? Just an extension of the first orc rape or is it something entirely new, like on the training path?

My hope is a new scene back at the castle for Helayna if you decide not to claim her.

 

[231weqsdaxcz]

i last played this game at jan 2022 where i remember finishing all the stuff with rhastdel, would you say it worth to play the game again now or wait for more stuff to be added?

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

i last played this game at jan 2022 where i remember finishing all the stuff with rhastdel, would you say it worth to play the game again now or wait for more stuff to be added?

unless you are mostly interested in side content you you'd probably be happiest to wait until the game is complete. The main story has been sitting at 95+% complete for years while they finished filling in the side content. Supposedly they are going to be pushing hard to finish it this year though

 

[Blurpee69]

unless you are mostly interested in side content you you'd probably be happiest to wait until the game is complete. The main story has been sitting at 95+% complete for years while they finished filling in the side content. Supposedly they are going to be pushing hard to finish it this year though

Out of curiosity, have they given any indication that they will be navigating the next act any differently? Will Act 2 be rushing through the story, and then back filling with side content or will they be developed together at a similar pace? Or perhaps even lessening the amount of side content? I appreciate all the side content, don't get me wrong, but putting progress on hold for years is a bummer.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Out of curiosity, have they given any indication that they will be navigating the next act any differently? Will Act 2 be rushing through the story, and then back filling with side content or will they be developed together at a similar pace? Or perhaps even lessening the amount of side content? I appreciate all the side content, don't get me wrong, but putting progress on hold for years is a bummer.

Supposedly yes. When they started out they were very much novice developers and learning as they went. They also over promised and rather than back out of those promises, they've dedicated themselves to adding most of that promised content to the game before they continue to the next game (that is mostly what has been taking so long). But they've learned a lot about their workflow and scheduling since then, and they will also be reworking the format of the game in part 2 as they've realized that the current format is not sustainable as the scope of the game has grown.

But in the end only time will tell.

 

[Segnbora]

Out of curiosity, have they given any indication that they will be navigating the next act any differently?

I'd think devs embracing a 24-year cycle to complete their game would be a non-starter. All the "problems" with this game happened before it started. They're not going to make those mistakes again. It'll be finished on a more efficient timeline.

 

[Gicoo]

I'd think devs embracing a 24-year cycle to complete their game would be a non-starter. All the "problems" with this game happened before it started. They're not going to make those mistakes again. It'll be finished on a more efficient timeline.

And when exactly is he developement supposed to skyrock? And why weren't those mistakes made in the first two years still present during the next five years, far after they had learned from their mistakes?

Whats how they call it currently? Copium?

 

[Filipis]

I'd think devs embracing a 24-year cycle to complete their game would be a non-starter. All the "problems" with this game happened before it started. They're not going to make those mistakes again. It'll be finished on a more efficient timeline.

Easy there fella, ever heard of the "don't count your chickens before the eggs hatched"?

The developers haven't even guaranteed the year 2024 as a release date for Act I, they just reaaaally want it to be.

That said, they also "promised" that Act II would be smaller in scope (# of characters, plots and endings) compared to Act I, so yes, technically Act II should not take 7 more years to come out.

 

[Rein]

And why weren't those mistakes made in the first two years still present during the next five years, far after they had learned from their mistakes?

Let me put it that way.

You make a game. You make a crucial mistake during the development phase of the game and 2 years into development, and you are saddled with certain mechanics or plot-lines that are unsustainable in the long run. Your options are as follows:
1. Continue as you were, basically dooming yourself into eternal development.
2. Scratch everything, and start from zero.
3. Wrap up haphazardly and move on to a new game.
4. Correct course, attempting to bring a satisfying conclusion to what you already started, vowing to not repeat the same mistakes moving forward.

Now, nr 1's natural conclusion is usually the game being abandoned. Eternal development is incredibly taxing - a story must be seen to its conclusion, otherwise you get burned out. If the developer is mad enough to keep going regardless... Well it's not particularly fun to watch anyway. I think Yandere Simulator is a good example. I admire the tenacity, but like, damn.

Nr 2 is a fantastic way to alienate your playerbase and bankrupt yourself. Unsustainable or not, people LIKED what you did, and supported it. Removing it will not be seen favourably. You can check Saria Reclaimed to see how his recent rework is working out.

Nr 3 has its advantages. Just... Cut off and move on. Leave whatever story lines you have unfinished and just move on to the next game. We see it all the time, particularly with triple A games.
Was that an option? Yes. Now, I'm just a writer, so I don't set the course of the ship. Personally, if we went that route, I wouldn't be satisfied with the end product. I hate blatantly unfinished games.

Which leaves nr 4 - compromise where you can, and try to make the possible product out of the things you've already put in place. Is it going to take long? Yes. Are you going to bang your head against the wall every time you have to deal with a old mechanic that doesn't really support the current vision of the game? Many fucking times. Will you have to deal with people asking month, after month, after month, "Are you done yet?". Very much so!

But you do it anyway, because you believe the end result will be good. And if you don't plan to make something good, then why the fuck do you get started on it in the first place.

Now, as for act 2. Will it be smaller in scope, with less characters, and less freedom of choice? Preferably not. There's a lot in Seeds of Chaos Act 1 that can be shaven off, without really detracting from the core experience. It will present itself with its own brand of unique challenges, but we are hopeful things will go better this time.

Every release brings us closer to the finish line. The game doesn't expand anymore - it just fills up where it has to fill up.

Alright, rant over, had to get it off my chest

 

[ffive]

You make a game. You make a crucial mistake during the development phase of the game and 2 years into development, and you are saddled with certain mechanics or plot-lines that are unsustainable in the long run. Your options are as follows:
1. Continue as you were, basically dooming yourself into eternal development.
2. Scratch everything, and start from zero.
3. Wrap up haphazardly and move on to a new game.
4. Correct course, attempting to bring a satisfying conclusion to what you already started, vowing to not repeat the same mistakes moving forward.

There's also:
5. Prune what you have to maintainable scope and work with this to reasonably dated finish.

That you can only start from absolute zero or that you can only continue with all you have is the most basic mistake one could make. Though of course, this is a pretty common mistake -- the idea of just flipping over the table and starting everything anew is very tempting, especially for programmers, but writers aren't immune to it either.

 

[Rein]

5. Prune what you have to maintainable scope and work with this to reasonably dated finish.

Ah yes, but what to prune?

"We do not need gay sex with Andras", says the heterosexual man.
"No, time is wasted on Liurial, when Jezera clearly has not received the attention she deserves", says the femdom simp.
"Jezera? Bah! Such an annoying character! We should just kill her already! Otherwise, when will witness the coveted Alexia/Helayna/Rowan threesome?!" Says the harem connoisseur.

In all seriousness, number 5 is number 4. This is SoC on a somewhat maintainable scope. You simply don't see what was removed from development altogether.

I asked this a while ago, I will ask this again. Given what we've focused in the last 2 years - what would you cut from development to save on time? Because last time we didn't receive a consensus on that.

 

[ffive]

Ah yes, but what to prune?

This would largely depend on what's the cost of given features, so it's hard to answer in vacuum.

Personally, i'd consider doing away with the map mechanics (which come with necessity to introduce tons of generic events just to have stuff happen during travels over the course of the game) and replacing it with more streamlined narrative, one that moved between key beats with occasional small events in-between. Then things like the fairies or whatever those things were in the sideplot which was effectively removed from the game during my playthrough -- this demonstrated that it'd be perfectly fine to maybe push it to a later Act without any real issue. The sheer amount of random side events you have currently is to the point where the player is going to need multiple playthroughs to experience them all. Which from the player's standpoint might be great, if multiple playthroughs are something they have keen interest in, but for developer is, as you have experienced, utterly exhausting and unsustainable. And something that could very well be distributed instead along multiple Acts.

(regarding character plot-lines, i think it's pretty easy arguments that the story main characters, that is the protagonists and antagonists, get the priority. Secondary characters are nice to have but they're secondary for a reason. There's also always a question of how much of character's arc has to be included in the game's single Act -- it can be quite okay for some to play out over longer period of time, if just to avoid the situation when it's an open-shut case in a single Act and then the writers are left scratching their heads, "okay but what do we do with these characters now")

 

[Rein]

Personally, i'd consider doing away with the map mechanics (which come with necessity to introduce tons of generic events just to have stuff happen during travels over the course of the game) and replacing it with more streamlined narrative, one that moved between key beats with occasional small events in-between.

Obviously not a bad idea - but for act 1 that would mean removing a third of the game, and completely reworking the way the story paces itself. Which moves us dangerously close to being a pure Visual Novel, which - while not necessarily bad! - is not what was promised when development started.

I am not happy with the role the map plays in SoC act 1. But removing it mid-development would be a titanic endeavor with questionable benefits. Instead, I tried to adjust it so it's at least fun to play around with. Was I successful. Eh. Haven't really heard a lot of good about it. But it's a work in progress, so I haven't lost hope.

The Fae plot could, possibly, be shifted around. BUT it's immensely popular among our Patreons. So again - are you sure you want to remove a story line for which you have assets, for which you have events, and the people are expecting to see?

Obviously SoC is not developed by popular vote, but it does not mean it can ignore the will of its supporters. We have to meet certain expectations.

 

[ffive]

Obviously not a bad idea - but for act 1 that would mean removing a third of the game, and completely reworking the way the story paces itself.

I realize it, but also that'd be very much the point -- if you can cut down the size by 1/3rd without affecting any of your real content, then it's very much what i'd consider successful pruning. I get and agree it'd significantly change the feel of the game, but it's one of those decisions that, while hard, might make a difference between the project seeing the delivery or sinking under its weight. And it is also okay for the developer to admit "Guys, we have initially planned things to be different, but it turns out this is too much, so we had to change it. We're sorry, but it had to be done." Some people will complain, sure. But a lot more will complain a lot louder if the project drags on for years and years because of unsustainable scope.

The Fae plot could, possibly, be shifted around. BUT it's immensely popular among our Patreons. So again - are you sure you want to remove a story line for which you have assets, for which you have events, and the people are expecting to see?

Like i said, when i've played the game the Fae plot was disabled, i think due to being reworked? There was something like one dream sequence that was a lead up to it. But i've still enjoyed the game a lot, so i feel it's safe to say it's not crucial element of the experience. Of course, if it's something extra in Act 1 then it's great... for Act 1 in terms of available content, but far less great in terms of time needed to complete this Act. So again, pushing this kind of things back to later acts (and freeing the development time allocated to that rework or whatever it was for other more tasks more crucial for Act 1 completion) could be another of these hard calls that are ultimately worth making. And while the content might be very popular for the Patreons, i'm pretty sure that the idea of getting wrapped up Act 1 would be also very popular with them :v

Anyway, that was my 2 mostly unasked for cents on this issue. I'll shut up and get back to wait, your time will be much better spent if you can work on the game instead

 

[maroder]

Obviously not a bad idea - but for act 1 that would mean removing a third of the game, and completely reworking the way the story paces itself. Which moves us dangerously close to being a pure Visual Novel, which - while not necessarily bad! - is not what was promised when development started.

I am not happy with the role the map plays in SoC act 1. But removing it mid-development would be a titanic endeavor with questionable benefits. Instead, I tried to adjust it so it's at least fun to play around with. Was I successful. Eh. Haven't really heard a lot of good about it. But it's a work in progress, so I haven't lost hope.

my main problem with map (gameplay side of game)is that it is too easy if you have even basic understanding of what you are doing. it is interesting mechanic but what you do on map is only for getting scenes and reaching two time limit checks that game has. gameplay on map and story are almost separate. there has never been any interesting choice to be made there why does it matter if i raze a town or decide to trade with it when it doesn't has any bearing on wider gameplay or story?
game tells story of tragic hero who has almost impossible task creating new army from nothing to please hes masters to survive gameplay on other hand tells story of super human who can achieve everything even without trying (your decision on map can almost never make you lose the game or even have consequences).
example i could always choose most moral choices and still my army strength would be at least 2 times more then hardest army check.
i know that finishing orc raid now gives bonuses and that is really good step in right direction(haven't played last 1-2 steam updates )

now i will give my unasked opinion how to make map significantly better with least amount of work which i can think of.
it's very easy just add optional hard mode which will make game significantly harder and i mean significantly.
making it should be relatively easy just double military strength necessary for taking towns, decrease gold income, make slaves more profitable, make razing towns better and things like that (make choosing ulcro gives us 4 orcs and 0.5 morale instead of 2 and leave delane option same) make check for taking ravens keep harder and do same for rastadel and field battle.
i want game to force me to consider destroying towns because whiteout it i may fail twins. i want to be forced to consider to take people as slaves because its only option rowan has left. i want to consider abandoning delane because without other orc tribes support rowan may die. i want to see rowan as hero who becomes monster one step at a time because it was only way to survive. i want to feel satisfaction that despite all odd's rowan managed to not become monster and was hero even when it was difficult. i can see great potential in which game map mechanics may help story to become much better, but there is no challenge and without challenge there can be no victory.

in short these game suffers from ludonarrative dissonance .
even if basic people will still find fun in it if it will work with story now they are working against each other.
i wish game devs best of luck its great and i enjoy it greatly.

 

[Rein]

I realize it, but also that'd be very much the point -- if you can cut down the size by 1/3rd without affecting any of your real content, then it's very much what i'd consider successful pruning.

Yes, but removing the map also adds work.

Ultimately it was decided that sustaining the map is less work then removing the map and replacing it with something else. If someone analyzes where all the new events have taken place in the last 3 years, they will realize the map itself hasn't been the main focus of our writing. Yes, I did do some work on it - but I'm just one writer of several. The main focus was always somewhere else.

Some people will complain, sure. But a lot more will complain a lot louder if the project drags on for years and years because of unsustainable scope.

You severely underestimate the backslash that comes with removing content.

As for the Fae plot, it was probably one of the hardest decisions in terms of development. Many arguments for and against. I won't get into it.

my main problem with map (gameplay side of game)is that it is too easy if you have even basic understanding of what you are doing. it is interesting mechanic but what you do on map is only for getting scenes and reaching two time limit checks that game has. gameplay on map and story are almost separate. there has never been any interesting choice to be made there why does it matter if i raze a town or decide to trade with it when it doesn't has any bearing on wider gameplay or story?
game tells story of tragic hero who has almost impossible task creating new army from nothing to please hes masters to survive gameplay on other hand tells story of super human who can achieve everything even without trying (your decision on map can almost never make you lose the game or even have consequences).
example i could always choose most moral choices and still my army strength would be at least 2 times more then hardest army check.
i know that finishing orc raid now gives bonuses and that is really good step in right direction(haven't played last 1-2 steam updates )

You are right! Which is why come version 0.5 Astarte outcome will no longer be set in stone!

With the economy rework of 0.4, expansion of the Bloodmeen army now requires constant expansion of the Bloodmeen castle. At the moment, this is primarily achieved by continuously upgrading your barracks, but eventually Forge (which is far too efficient with producing equipment at the moment), Brothel (which is far to weak at what it does) and Morale (which only grows to be a problem late game) will all be crucial tools for creating a large army for Bloodmeen. And the size of your army will be THE most important factor for determinating if Astarte's victory was a mere fluke, or if Rowan led armies completely annihilate the enemy.

I am not blind regarding the shortcomings of the Map segment. I cannot focus entirely on polishing it - our focus at the moment is finishing all the important act 1 events - but eventually this god damn game will behave like a god damn gamn.