Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.06] [Vénus Noire]

[T51bwinterized]

With the money they are raking in they could easily employ professionals or at least part-timers yet apparently, profit is more important. The fact I'm not the first person to raise this concern and the way the developer reacted tells me my arguments aren't just some idle fancies of mine.

Question. Have you played the game before?

 

[Nightmare800]

Hem hem. The rest aside, a clarifying detail. We're on build 2.65. which means we're on our 65th full build after the prologue. Not our second.

So how far along is the project in terms of development currently? A mere rough percentage approximation would suffice. Number of updates means nothing because by that logic, mount and blade bannerlord is already a completed game. But when an update amounts to three bugfixes and an updated texture a month, bugfixes for the bugs you have introduced with the last patch no less (not saying this is the case here), the end result is basically, and excuse my language here, fuck all for years to an end.

Question. Have you played the game before?

No, I have not, but the development cycle lenght and version numberthis project is currently sitting on tells me a lot. You will have to excuse my cynicism, this act of stringing along donators with breadcrumbs for updates is not only all too common, but shows a deep flaw in what patreon is supposed to be. The fact is a lot of developers just mooch off their patrons doing nothing but throwing in a tiny occasional update, merely to keep up hope for something that they have no intention of delivering. In fact vast majority of patreon crowd funded games end up like this.

 

[Nightmare800]

Whoever compiles ever single post from the last FIVE FUCKING YEARS saying we'll obviously abandond this game AT ANY MOMENT NOW, I will make your self-insert get cucked by Andras in a one-off map event.

Just a few lines of reference. No art. You don't get sommy for this.

I didn't say you abandoned it, I'm saying that from the look of things you are taking your supporters for a ride in a worst way possible and that abandoning it is how it will surely end. Nice grammar by the way, I'd expect more eloquent typing skills from someone who basically types for living.

 

[Mount Parnassus]

I believe the game's problem is having to many paths. Maybe it should be more focused in the main plots. However, I can't complain, as Seeds of Chaos is still the best fantasy game nowadays. The writting is exceptional and the character's design is the best I've ever seen. What, ironically, just makes me more anxious to seeing the main story evolve and frustrated with it's slow progress.

 

[T51bwinterized]

So how far along is the project in terms of development currently? A mere rough percentage approximation would suffice. Number of updates means nothing because by that logic, mount and blade bannerlord is already a completed game. But when an update amounts to three bugfixes and an updated texture a month, bugfixes for the bugs you have introduced with the last patch no less (not saying this is the case here), the end result is basically, and excuse my language here, fuck all for years to an end.

Difficult to say. The first game is about 85%-90% complete, but we realized our scope was too big so we're doing sequels. The main plot is 99% done and ready to move into the sequel, but we're taking out time to give the sidecast lavish plotlines.

In terms of completed content:

More then 1.2 million words, which is a lot and longer then many entire novel series.

At present about 1000 unique CGs or substantial variants in our very detailed style.

Haven't kept count of the animations but right now there's over 50.

Backgrounds is somewhere close to 100.

This is a herculean amount, and very few other games in our genre have a similar size and scale.

I've played Our Red String by EvaKiss. Good game. Probably has about 200 CGs. In a much lower detail and quality. Granted, we've been working longer on it, but we (Read: Sommy and his crew) produce more then 200 a year.

 

[Nightmare800]

Difficult to say. The first game is about 85%-90% complete, but we realized our scope was too big so we're doing sequels. The main plot is 99% done and ready to move into the sequel, but we're taking out time to give the sidecast lavish plotlines.

In terms of completed content:

More then 1.2 million words, which is a lot and longer then many entire novel series.

At present about 1000 unique CGs or substantial variants in our very detailed style.

Haven't kept count of the animations but right now there's over 50.

Backgrounds is somewhere close to 100.

This is a herculean amount, and very few other games in our genre have a similar size and scale.

I've played Our Red String by EvaKiss. Good game. Probably has about 200 CGs. In a much lower detail and quality. Granted, she's been working longer on it, but we (Read: Sommy and his crew) produce more then 200 a year.

Interesting, what's up with the version number then? Is it intentionally misleading because frankly, sitting on what you call version 0.265 after FIVE years when the game is almost actually done is something that will invite the exact kind of cynism I have shown towards your game.

Nevertheless if that is the case then I take back what I said apologize for my accusations, I hope you will understand that my claims are not fueled by malice but merely by exhaustion of how these patreon projects usually end up. In fact the behavior I have talked about is rampant everywhere, not just patreon but also on steam.

 

[Rein]

I'm saying that from the look of things you are taking your supporters for a ride in a worst way possible and that abandoning it is how it will surely end.

This time of the year I suppose.

Everyone who think they can make a better game is invited to try.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Wait, I checked with design and Mechanics and they said I'm an idiot.

Actual answer:

The game's technical current release is 0.2.65. the 0 refers to finished or not finished. A 1 means finished and a 0eans unfinished. The 2 refers to major technical build. And the 65 refers to patch within the major tech build.

We've been mostly focused on art and writing content and haven't done a tech build inawhile. This the 0.2.65

I am being informed our upcoming major rework will be classified as 0.3.0

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

No, I have not, but the development cycle lenght and version numberthis project is currently sitting on tells me a lot. You will have to excuse my cynicism, this act of stringing along donators with breadcrumbs for updates is not only all too common, but shows a deep flaw in what patreon is supposed to be. The fact is a lot of developers just mooch off their patrons doing nothing but throwing in a tiny occasional update, merely to keep up hope for something that they have no intention of delivering. In fact vast majority of patreon crowd funded games end up like this.

Then next time actually try to inform yourself about the game and its developers before acusing them of milking.

Also your facts are BS. Most game here are done as a part time project, just a small minority get to receive dozens of thousands of euros/dolars as support per month while delivering regular updates and becoming a full time project.

If what you claim were true there would be hundreds of Icstors around here, delivering one update every year and half while getting more than 20 thousand per month.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Citation:

 

[T51bwinterized]

Then next time actually try to inform yourself about the game and its developers before acusing them of milking.

Also your facts are BS. Most game here are done as a part time project, just a small minority get to receive dozens of thousands of euros/dolars as support per month while delivering regular updates and becoming a full time project.

If what you claim were true there would be hundreds of Icstors around here, delivering one update every year and half while getting more than 20 thousand per month.

He dropped it. Let it go. Mistaken assumptions. It happens.

 

[andybc]

I wouldn't say they don't work hard enough, or that it is a scam. They are investing a lot of time into reworks and rewriting, which won't result in tangible results now, but would be worth the investment in the long run. If they wanted to abandon the game, why rework everything? My only criticism with the devs is maybe more frequent dev updates on patreon, such as future plans, screenshots system reworks, more detailed wip, etc. It's hard to tell what the future vision of the devs are sometimes.

 

[Nightmare800]

Then next time actually try to inform yourself about the game and its developers before acusing them of milking.

Also your facts are BS. Most game here are done as a part time project, just a small minority get to receive dozens of thousands of euros/dolars as support per month while delivering regular updates and becoming a full time project.

If what you claim were true there would be hundreds of Icstors around here, delivering one update every year and half while getting more than 20 thousand per month.

I've seen more titles than I care to remember meet the exact fate I was mentioning, patreon itself is rife with such garbage, so excuse me if I ignore your suggestion because an exception doesn't disprove a rule.

 

[Oriandu]

There's going to be more details within reason, especially as Rowan meets more characters related to the war.



That doesn't really much count as NTR, does it? Everyone is part of that fun.



Depends on your goals and what kind of Rowan you want. But getting enthralled by the castle's spymaster if you want to plot a rebellion is perhaps not wise.



Where Booba indeed



Jezera may not know everything, but she definitely isn't that dumb. And in the Shaya case, she does genuinely trust her (for reasons discussed in the plot).



Hem hem. The rest aside, a clarifying detail. We're on build 2.65. which means we're on our 65th full build after the prologue. Not our second.



We've never been shy about the fact that yes are original pretentions didn't quite meet our vision. As time as has gone on, different team members have come in to work on different aspects and rework them. It's not a scam, it's a consequence of ground up development based on excitement about a project instead of capital.

But, I think you're too harsh by a bit on our ability to design. Rein has been handling our systems redesign and he's quite talented. I think the amount of complaining about game systems will drop in a substantial way (though definitely not entirely, we didn't change everything).

No, I'm not too harsh on your ability to design. I come from a game development background, it crushed my desire to work in game development out of me. It was dreadful, but my armchair is an informed armchair. Based on the product you put out month to month your design is a mess. There's little to no coherent direction or focus which is the difference between designing a game and making one. If you were working on a properly designed game there would be no scenes without artwork, there would be no asking what patreons want you to focus on next, there would be no mechanics that need major changes, there would be no going back and changing certain scenes because they don't fit with what you're making anymore. Game design is the tempered form of a video game. It also means you typically have a very specific route to follow because you're dealing with a detailed design document that is typically hundreds, sometimes thousands of pages long dictating what needs to be done to build the game. Proper game design is knowing what you're going to build before a single line of code is even typed.

 

[T51bwinterized]

No, I'm not too harsh on your ability to design. I come from a game development background, it crushed my desire to work in game development out of me. It was dreadful, but my armchair is an informed armchair. Based on the product you put out month to month your design is a mess. There's little to no coherent direction or focus which is the difference between designing a game and making one. If you were working on a properly designed game there would be no scenes without artwork, there would be no asking what patreons want you to focus on next, there would be no mechanics that need major changes, there would be no going back and changing certain scenes because they don't fit with what you're making anymore. Game design is the tempered form of a video game. It also means you typically have a very specific route to follow because you're dealing with a detailed design document that is typically hundreds, sometimes thousands of pages long dictating what needs to be done to build the game. Proper game design is knowing what you're going to build before a single line of code is even typed.

And yet many proper games by proper designers end up gaining features, losing features, having systems reworked, dealing with problems like marketing and selling. Have to be salvaged from unworkable states, or else sometimes rebuilt wholesale. Many of the games we'd call classics were made that way.

The "proper" designers of Paradox interactive made CK2, a game probably unrivaled in terms of my play time. It only took them 10 years of constant itiration to do it.

None of this is to excuse or justify some of our failures. Some of our designs stink. Our process is flawed. We've had problems. And that's why we're comitted to constantly doing better and improving the process for our players.

But, this idealogical notion of game design as being birthed full formed from Jesus' vagina is nonsense. Itiration is design. The best designers are largely those who are the best at improving their own work.

 

[ronadan]

If you were working on a properly designed game there would be no scenes without artwork, there would be no asking what patreons want you to focus on next, there would be no mechanics that need major changes, there would be no going back and changing certain scenes because they don't fit with what you're making anymore. Game design is the tempered form of a video game. It also means you typically have a very specific route to follow because you're dealing with a detailed design document that is typically hundreds, sometimes thousands of pages long dictating what needs to be done to build the game.

I don't have your experience in the matter and I'm not trying to just brush off everything u point out here, but as an example what u consider improper game design is the actual model that some very successful recent games with early access built up upon. Hades and Dead cells are both examples. I played Hades from early access and they changed A SHIT TON of their original mechanics, while constantly adding and removing content and taking feedback from the community. The result was a totally successful game. I can't see why SoC can't follow the same path and reach a somewhat similar destination

I can also bring up MOBAs and many reworks they do for different reasons. sometimes a certain character after rework has a completely new design, reflecting how much the game evolved from its earlier versions. Does that mean reworking old mechanics is a sign of bad game design? not necessarily

so overall I do respectfully say that I disagree with your opinion on this matter

 

[T51bwinterized]

I don't have your experience in the matter and I'm not trying to just brush off everything u point out here, but as an example what u consider improper game design is the actual model that some very successful recent games with early access built up upon. Hades and Dead cells are both examples. I played Hades from early access and they changed A SHIT TON of their original mechanics, while constantly adding and removing content and taking feedback from the community. The result was a totally successful game. I can't see why SoC can't follow the same path and reach a somewhat similar destination

I can also bring up MOBAs and many reworks they do for different reasons. sometimes a certain character after rework has a completely new design, reflecting how much the game evolved from its earlier versions. Does that mean reworking old mechanics is a sign of bad game design? not necessarily

so overall I do respectfully say that I disagree with your opinion on this matter

Don't bring up MOBAs bro. I'm taking a break from League and the threat of relapse is real.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I don't have your experience in the matter and I'm not trying to just brush off everything u point out here, but as an example what u consider improper game design is the actual model that some very successful recent games with early access built up upon. Hades and Dead cells are both examples. I played Hades from early access and they changed A SHIT TON of their original mechanics, while constantly adding and removing content and taking feedback from the community. The result was a totally successful game. I can't see why SoC can't follow the same path and reach a somewhat similar destination

I can also bring up MOBAs and many reworks they do for different reasons. sometimes a certain character after rework has a completely new design, reflecting how much the game evolved from its earlier versions. Does that mean reworking old mechanics is a sign of bad game design? not necessarily

so overall I do respectfully say that I disagree with your opinion on this matter

Another sucessfull example of this is Divinity Original Sin II. A lot of changes were implemented during early acess until the game being released and turning into a sucess.

 

[T51bwinterized]

You'd probably have to work harder to find examples of games that didn't have extensive changes from the base design. Even in cases where the base design was relatively strong or there wasn't early access. You have to account for changing tech, changing budgets, changing personel, systems just not working as intended, and so on.

I've met a good deal of tabletop designers and they never fucking stop itirating. They make a build. Play it. Change shit. Play it. Change shit. Play it. Change shit. More of the design work happens in many cases after the original base design is finalized then before.

 

[Semantics]

While I agree that the slow rate of story progress combined with the small team size opens the game up more to the always present possibility of “shit happens,” I’m curious if anyone’s actually aware of any large scale smut games that have had a more organized, more efficient team outside of the Japanese market? Or for that matter, any smut games that have produced more content in a similar period of time?

I’m honestly curious, I don’t play a lot of western porn games, and a lot of people accuse this game of a lack of progress. I understand most of them are just looking at the version number and making assumptions based on that, and I already granted that main story progression is really slow, but in terms of the amount of work being done and the content that’s been added, I’m actually curious what western porn games are out there that compare favorably.

I think there are western games that get more new content that a player would see in a single playthrough than SoC in the same time frame, but they're without fail 3D or text with occasional pictures, not fully 2D games, and don't diverge in nearly all the ways SoC does. (And then there's the recent rewrites and skill overhaul.) I think the number of mutually exclusive content bits is the biggest contributor to dumb "milking, will be abandoned" type posts. ...At least, assuming said posters do actually play the game.

And I think some of it is that some people are predisposed to think a game has to be completed within a couple years to not be a scam. There are western porn devs that get a large amount of praise for completing small games quickly, which...I've never really understood as a point of praise.

In terms of organized, efficient teams, honestly SoC is only one of two teams where I'm even aware of who the other team members are, because most teams just have a head person who makes public posts, and then few if any of the other team members appear outside a Discord.