Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.08] [Vénus Noire]

[wqe]

Latest version save please?

 

[diebesgrab]

Latest version save please?

I know this is kind of mean, but a part of me wishes whenever somebody asked this, we had a save on hand from like Week 100 with every bit of content already explored to offer with no further explanation.

 

[Swordsman83]

Do people really like Summertime Saga art style better than SoC? What's more, do people really think Summertime Saga style is good? I honestly find it quite ugly.

you are not alone.. and im bewildered why they are the top earner. so many people rave about it like the 2nd coming of christ.

 

[wqe]

I know this is kind of mean, but a part of me wishes whenever somebody asked this, we had a save on hand from like Week 100 with every bit of content already explored to offer with no further explanation.

I finished game 3-4 times with different chooses and routes and still can't open 3.0.5 content.

 

[Swordsman83]

does this game still have many "black screens" its has been a long time since i last played.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

The art lags one update behind the scene being added to the game. So the scenes that got added in the last update will have their art added in the next update. All the black screens from when you previously played will now have art, but there will be new black screens in the new scenes from the last update. However the black screens are an ever shrinkingly small percentage of all the scenes in the game.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

I finished game 3-4 times with different chooses and routes and still can't open 3.0.5 content.

Let us know what scenes you are trying to unlock and we can help you find it.

If you are talking about unlocking the new scene in the art gallery however, the reason would be because (as I replied in the above response to Swordman83) the art for new scenes lags one update behind so the scene added in the 3.0.5 upate wont have art until 3.0.6 which will come out on May 29th and will add more new scenes that will in turn get their art in the July 31st update, and so on.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

>no ntr option
>shoehorned encounter where Alexis and the minotaur lust for each other
yeah... dropped.
even without the actual fucking taking place, it's already confirmed that alexia is lusting for other guys, clearly demonstrating that NTRing the protagonist is part of her character.
the entire story revolves around NTR and being threatened with NTR. the developers just made the toggle so the game isn't disregarded instantly.

Of course you are free to dislike the game and not play it. I sincerly hope you find something that better suits your tastes next time. However, I just want to clarify the scene in question for anyone unfamiliar with the game that comes across this discussion.

In the scene in question both Alexia (the wife) and Greyhide (the minotaur) are secretly drugged with an aphrodisiac (this is revealed in detail in a later scene). Due the drug, during their conversation Alexia's thoughts will wander to what Greyhide has under his loincloth. Then you, the player, can either have Alexia ask to see it, or to get a hold of herself and shake it off the thought. Personally, I don't think having a stray lustful thought counts as NTR, I'm not the thought police so as long you don't act on it that is all I care about. On the other hand if you make the choice to have her request the see his dick, that is on you and you don't get to be mad about what comes next.

 

[Chalker]

I don't think having a stray lustful thought counts as NTR, I'm not the thought police so as long you don't

I believe it does, especially since you are forced to engage with it (you have to choose if you want to ask him about his dick or what's his favorite part of her is), and it's not just a lustful thought but an entire scene with undeniable NTR-esque buildup.

 

[theworstpvper]

Of course you are free to dislike the game and not play it. I sincerly hope you find something that better suits your tastes next time. However, I just want to clarify the scene in question for anyone unfamiliar with the game that comes across this discussion.

In the scene in question both Alexia (the wife) and Greyhide (the minotaur) are secretly drugged with an aphrodisiac (this is revealed in detail in a later scene). Due the drug, during their conversation Alexia's thoughts will wander to what Greyhide has under his loincloth. Then you, the player, can either have Alexia ask to see it, or to get a hold of herself and shake it off the thought. Personally, I don't think having a stray lustful thought counts as NTR, I'm not the thought police so as long you don't act on it that is all I care about. On the other hand if you make the choice to have her request the see his dick, that is on you and you don't get to be mad about what comes next.

edit; just realized i ended up writing a fucking essay. my b. other edit/proper conclusion at the end of my response. feel free to only read that or read it first to to get a better idea of my take.

I was scrolling through to comments to see if the dev had decided to actually remove the NTR in the other route rather than just make it """avoidable""" and saw you making some sense so figured I'd try to explain.

The issue is that someone who dislikes NTR doesn't want everything to do to be marred with its existence. It's like having girlfriend who doesn't cheat on you but keeps reminding you of their better ex with the bigger dick and better personality every month or two. Sure you're not getting cucked in reality but it sure as hell feels like you're at least getting a taste of it. Games like this seem to often be colored by the fact that they're NTR bait, which is a good thing if that's what you're into since it means even the setting serves genre but also means you need to put in much more work to make it "avoidable". I feel like a lot of people try to take the definition of NTR as gospel when people who use the term to avoid it only use it because it's the only decent/common descriptor for what they dislike not because it's wholly accurate.

If we're talking about the scene you specifically brought up, people who dislike NTR would obviously dislike anything that leads to it or begs the question. Your clarification of the scene only made me more sure the NTR wasn't actually avoidable just optional. The very scenario reeks NTR from the jump, no one who's not trying to cuck you would even think of a setting like that let alone force the player to engage with it. If the settings are being written like this it's clear who the dev is pandering to and what they want you to click. This all seems so obvious to me that I can't help but tin foil hat think that people are simply trying to trick us into playing a game we won't like. Eventually I wake up and assume people wouldn't care enough to do that but not everyone second guesses themselves as evidenced by the vitriol spewed on both sides, often unprovoked.

The proper solution, which is implemented in plenty of other initially NTR games, is to be given the option to avoid NTR scenes closer to when the build up starts. For example, the aphrodisiac scene should never happen if I'm trying to avoid. Going by the way you describe the scene there should ideally be an alternate scene/route that don't involve either the aphrodisiac or the minotaur, ideally both. Maybe this isn't as obvious to someone who doesn't mind NTR but both aphrodisiacs and beefy men alone in a room with the player's SO are pretty much exclusively NTR/Rape tropes. Their very inclusion makes my dick shrivel up in fear of what's to come. In other games it's common to be cucked as a result of neglecting the SO, so the option to avoid NTR should be in whether or not the player chooses to pay attention the SO before another man or whoever enters the picture at all. From your description this game sounds like a case where the plot is so NTR driven it's nigh impossible to make the NTR avoidable without writing a bunch of alternate scenes and plot descriptions that don't clearly play up that vibe.

Either way this is mostly the fault of the f95 devs refusing to expand the tags to include more appropriate tags for situations like this. There should really be a tag for things that use cheating/NTR as a plot driver which is much more indicative of whether or not someone who dislikes NTR will like the game as opposed to whether or not the NTR is avoidable/optional though even that would help too. That way people like me would never even bother to enter the thread of a game like this and you'd only be left with the absolute dipshits who go around looking for trouble and they can just be ignored/banned. Also to be clear I'm only here because I remember the game from back before it was properly tagged and they were just implementing the NTR being """avoidable""".

Appreciate you clarifying the scene as that pretty much cements the devs intention to not make an actual non-NTR route as well as your attempt to understand and extend an olive branch to the other side.

editedit; Read more and judging by the rest of the thread this game seems to be exceptionally well written NTR and inspired by some of the most beloved dark fantasy/NTR/rape stories in the business (dark souls/berserk) so I don't see how you can actually make something like that avoidable when the drama of stuff like that is so integral to what they they appear to be going for. Feel like that'd require a lot more work on stuff they're not interested in than I'd feel comfortable asking of their team. Best of luck to the writers and I don't have any issues as long the NTR tags stay as they are. Glad to see ya'll getting/making something good.

 

[Kotobiki]

I just wanna point out, multiple dialogues suggest Alexia being at the least curious about other peeps... playability, even without actually choosing NTR options. It is definetely canon that Rowan and Alexia are deviants in potential and just have it locked down under morality and such.

 

[evyleu]

edit; just realized i ended up writing a fucking essay. my b. other edit/proper conclusion at the end of my response. feel free to only read that or read it first to to get a better idea of my take.

I was scrolling through to comments to see if the dev had decided to actually remove the NTR in the other route rather than just make it """avoidable""" and saw you making some sense so figured I'd try to explain.

The issue is that someone who dislikes NTR doesn't want everything to do to be marred with its existence. It's like having girlfriend who doesn't cheat on you but keeps reminding you of their better ex with the bigger dick and better personality every month or two. Sure you're not getting cucked in reality but it sure as hell feels like you're at least getting a taste of it. Games like this seem to often be colored by the fact that they're NTR bait, which is a good thing if that's what you're into since it means even the setting serves genre but also means you need to put in much more work to make it "avoidable". I feel like a lot of people try to take the definition of NTR as gospel when people who use the term to avoid it only use it because it's the only decent/common descriptor for what they dislike not because it's wholly accurate.

If we're talking about the scene you specifically brought up, people who dislike NTR would obviously dislike anything that leads to it or begs the question. Your clarification of the scene only made me more sure the NTR wasn't actually avoidable just optional. The very scenario reeks NTR from the jump, no one who's not trying to cuck you would even think of a setting like that let alone force the player to engage with it. If the settings are being written like this it's clear who the dev is pandering to and what they want you to click. This all seems so obvious to me that I can't help but tin foil hat think that people are simply trying to trick us into playing a game we won't like. Eventually I wake up and assume people wouldn't care enough to do that but not everyone second guesses themselves as evidenced by the vitriol spewed on both sides, often unprovoked.

The proper solution, which is implemented in plenty of other initially NTR games, is to be given the option to avoid NTR scenes closer to when the build up starts. For example, the aphrodisiac scene should never happen if I'm trying to avoid. Going by the way you describe the scene there should ideally be an alternate scene/route that don't involve either the aphrodisiac or the minotaur, ideally both. Maybe this isn't as obvious to someone who doesn't mind NTR but both aphrodisiacs and beefy men alone in a room with the player's SO are pretty much exclusively NTR/Rape tropes. Their very inclusion makes my dick shrivel up in fear of what's to come. In other games it's common to be cucked as a result of neglecting the SO, so the option to avoid NTR should be in whether or not the player chooses to pay attention the SO before another man or whoever enters the picture at all. From your description this game sounds like a case where the plot is so NTR driven it's nigh impossible to make the NTR avoidable without writing a bunch of alternate scenes and plot descriptions that don't clearly play up that vibe.

Either way this is mostly the fault of the f95 devs refusing to expand the tags to include more appropriate tags for situations like this. There should really be a tag for things that use cheating/NTR as a plot driver which is much more indicative of whether or not someone who dislikes NTR will like the game as opposed to whether or not the NTR is avoidable/optional though even that would help too. That way people like me would never even bother to enter the thread of a game like this and you'd only be left with the absolute dipshits who go around looking for trouble and they can just be ignored/banned. Also to be clear I'm only here because I remember the game from back before it was properly tagged and they were just implementing the NTR being """avoidable""".

Appreciate you clarifying the scene as that pretty much cements the devs intention to not make an actual non-NTR route as well as your attempt to understand and extend an olive branch to the other side.

editedit; Read more and judging by the rest of the thread this game seems to be exceptionally well written NTR and inspired by some of the most beloved dark fantasy/NTR/rape stories in the business (dark souls/berserk) so I don't see how you can actually make something like that avoidable when the drama of stuff like that is so integral to what they they appear to be going for. Feel like that'd require a lot more work on stuff they're not interested in than I'd feel comfortable asking of their team. Best of luck to the writers and I don't have any issues as long the NTR tags stay as they are. Glad to see ya'll getting/making something good.

Sum: unavoidable NTR

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on this matter. Everyone clearly feels fairly strongly about their stance and it is rare for an internet debate to change anyone's mind. This is just to discuss my thoughts on the matter and to offer a different viewpoint for anyone that may be on the fence.

First of all, I simply cannot agree that having passing sexual thoughts and occasionally feeling tempted amounts to NTR. If that was the case, then nearly everyone in a relationship is NTRing their significant other on a fairly regular basis. If I was out drinking with a female associate and thought to myself "damn she has some nice tits," and then immediately followed it up with "What hell am I thinking? I'm a happily married and don't need to let my mind wander down that path," no one in their right mind would accuse me of cheating.

Next, I don't see the game as trying to push you into NTR. In the next scene in Greyhide's arc a very similar senarior plays out between him and Rowan when they drink the same aphrodisiac spiked alcohol, you then have the choice between making out with Greyhide (leading to more), or to drunkenly gush about how good of a friend he is. But the game isn't trying to push you to be gay. It is jsut presenting you with that option if you are interested. If not that is fine too because the senario is written to account for that choice. In the next scene it is revealed that Jezera had secretly spiked Greyhide's liquor, hoping for some interesting results. This scene will play out a bit differently depending on if Alexia fooled around with Greyhide, whether Rowan did, wether they both did, or whether neither of them did.

I also don't agree that having a choice implies that the character really wanted to do a particular option. It is just a moment where the developer is asking either "what would you do in this situation," or "what do you think should happen next." And in the way it is presented, these are clearly intrusive thoughts and not normal for her. In fact, most often she is able to reject any advances quite firmly. In the prologue when Alexia has been captured for a while you are given the choice between "she warmed up to Andras" or "she remained cold and aloof" is doesn't make sense that she wants both considering that it is asking how she has react for the past several months, it is asking you what you version of Alexia is like. By the same token When Rowan agrees to serve the twins and he is ordered to service one of them sexually and you can choose which one you want, it isn't saying that Rowan wants to have sex with both of them equally, it is asking you who your Rowan is attracted to. By the same token when you are asked to make the choice between "ask to see Greyhide's dick" or "shake of the aphrodisiac" it is asking you what kind of woman your version of Alexia is. Is she the type to give in to her magically induced lust, or is she the type to resist and remain faithful to both her husband and her principles.

Finally, I find there is usually a pretty big double standard in these arguments. By the time you get to the Alexia/Greyhide scene, Rowan will likely have had dozens of encounters with women (and possibly men) trying to temp him, and he is usually presented with the same two choices, either give in to the temptation or to resist the temptation. But I never see anyone complain that Rowan is NTRing his wife regardless of whether or not he ever gives in.

All that said, while I still disagree with your stances, I understand that other people will also have those stances, So I will endever to take that in to consideration in the future when people ask about NTR in this game. I will let them know that both of the protagonist will have other characters try to temp them in various ways, and that sometimes they WILL be tempted. But that the ultimate decision as to whether or not they will act on those temptations is up to the player. So if you cannot stand the idea that your SO may find other people attractive, and may at least be tempted on occasion then this may not be the game for you.

 

[diebesgrab]

I’m not telling anyone they have to play the game. That said:

First of all, NTR is a lot narrower than some of you are making it out to be. It specifically covers scenarios where one person (Party A) is made sexually unavailable to another who is close to them (Party B) due to the sexual actions of a third party (Party C)—in effect, Party A is sexually “stolen” by Party C. It does not cover scenarios where Party A is merely attracted to or sexually curious about anyone other than Party B. You’re of course free to dislike that kind of scenario, nobody can tell you what to like or dislike; I’m just glad I’m not married to anyone who’s going to get jealous if I so much as look at porn.

For the record, if you choose NOT to avoid the route in question, it leads to consensual sharing and/or bisexual threesomes, not cheating or NTR.

 

[Chalker]

Next, I don't see the game as trying to push you into NTR. In the next scene in Greyhide's arc a very similar senarior plays out between him and Rowan when they drink the same aphrodisiac spiked alcohol, you then have the choice between making out with Greyhide (leading to more), or to drunkenly gush about how good of a friend he is. But the game isn't trying to push you to be gay. It is jsut presenting you with that option if you are interested. If not that is fine too because the senario is written to account for that choice.

But the prelude to the gay option doesn't have rowan actively starring at grey hides loincloth and debating if he wants to see it, the gay thoughts will only start after you pick the gay option, not before. Clearly, the NTR is treated differently.

Finally, I find there is usually a pretty big double standard in these arguments. By the time you get to the Alexia/Greyhide scene, Rowan will likely have had dozens of encounters with women (and possibly men) trying to temp him, and he is usually presented with the same two choices, either give in to the temptation or to resist the temptation. But I never see anyone complain that Rowan is NTRing his wife regardless of whether or not he ever gives in.

This event happened in week 8 (for me at least), the two previous weeks were build-ups to this event, and everything else was just alexia being sexually harassed by other people. So I wouldn't say that's a fair assumption to make.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Oh God this discussion here again?
Take it to PM before the mods decide to delete everything to clean the thread, again.

 

[Brazilian Engrish]

It is definetely canon that Rowan and Alexia are deviants in potential

maybe Alexia, not Rowan. Canon Rowan has a incorruptible soul. He s written to be the good guy. The one who tries his best to minimize the damage done by the twins. This s a mission that only he can fulfill and will surely come with a high price.

 

[Lunix00]

This discussion about the NTR thing is useless. It is normal for the characters to perceive others as attractive or to be curious about them, just like in real life, where also due to moral values we know what would be wrong and what would not, since we could hurt people who love us. . I think a well-made character should be like that, of course, within the limits of the fantasy and the story that the developers want to expose. Now, if you decide to make decisions that make your characters degenerate, it's up to you.

For the record, if you choose NOT to avoid the route in question, it leads to consensual sharing and/or bisexual threesomes, not cheating or NTR.

Now, this is something I don't understand, or at least see simplistic. If Alexia does something wrong, and Rowan hasn't done anything wrong, why do you have to get into the sharing fetish? I think a logical answer would be that even if you've cheated on your partner, it doesn't necessarily mean you're okay with them sleeping with someone else. I believe it because life is like that.

 

[theworstpvper]

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on this matter. Everyone clearly feels fairly strongly about their stance and it is rare for an internet debate to change anyone's mind. This is just to discuss my thoughts on the matter and to offer a different viewpoint for anyone that may be on the fence.

First of all, I simply cannot agree that having passing sexual thoughts and occasionally feeling tempted amounts to NTR. If that was the case, then nearly everyone in a relationship is NTRing their significant other on a fairly regular basis. If I was out drinking with a female associate and thought to myself "damn she has some nice tits," and then immediately followed it up with "What hell am I thinking? I'm a happily married and don't need to let my mind wander down that path," no one in their right mind would accuse me of cheating.

Next, I don't see the game as trying to push you into NTR. In the next scene in Greyhide's arc a very similar senarior plays out between him and Rowan when they drink the same aphrodisiac spiked alcohol, you then have the choice between making out with Greyhide (leading to more), or to drunkenly gush about how good of a friend he is. But the game isn't trying to push you to be gay. It is jsut presenting you with that option if you are interested. If not that is fine too because the senario is written to account for that choice. In the next scene it is revealed that Jezera had secretly spiked Greyhide's liquor, hoping for some interesting results. This scene will play out a bit differently depending on if Alexia fooled around with Greyhide, whether Rowan did, wether they both did, or whether neither of them did.

I also don't agree that having a choice implies that the character really wanted to do a particular option. It is just a moment where the developer is asking either "what would you do in this situation," or "what do you think should happen next." And in the way it is presented, these are clearly intrusive thoughts and not normal for her. In fact, most often she is able to reject any advances quite firmly. In the prologue when Alexia has been captured for a while you are given the choice between "she warmed up to Andras" or "she remained cold and aloof" is doesn't make sense that she wants both considering that it is asking how she has react for the past several months, it is asking you what you version of Alexia is like. By the same token When Rowan agrees to serve the twins and he is ordered to service one of them sexually and you can choose which one you want, it isn't saying that Rowan wants to have sex with both of them equally, it is asking you who your Rowan is attracted to. By the same token when you are asked to make the choice between "ask to see Greyhide's dick" or "shake of the aphrodisiac" it is asking you what kind of woman your version of Alexia is. Is she the type to give in to her magically induced lust, or is she the type to resist and remain faithful to both her husband and her principles.

Finally, I find there is usually a pretty big double standard in these arguments. By the time you get to the Alexia/Greyhide scene, Rowan will likely have had dozens of encounters with women (and possibly men) trying to temp him, and he is usually presented with the same two choices, either give in to the temptation or to resist the temptation. But I never see anyone complain that Rowan is NTRing his wife regardless of whether or not he ever gives in.

All that said, while I still disagree with your stances, I understand that other people will also have those stances, So I will endever to take that in to consideration in the future when people ask about NTR in this game. I will let them know that both of the protagonist will have other characters try to temp them in various ways, and that sometimes they WILL be tempted. But that the ultimate decision as to whether or not they will act on those temptations is up to the player. So if you cannot stand the idea that your SO may find other people attractive, and may at least be tempted on occasion then this may not be the game for you.

Except this isn't real life. In real life I wouldn't be forced to hear your thoughts about other peoples nice tits. You seem to ignore the fact that someone chooses to write, and thus draw attention to, these things. If my SO told me every time they found someone else attractive or constantly stared at other peoples dicks and tits I would find issue with that too but luckily I don't live in that world.

My argument about choices was that a scene going as far down that road before giving you an option implies what they want you to choose. Every scene/setting you bring up presupposes being okay with these fetishes. If I dislike NTR I don't want to read about my wife being spiked and almost getting cucked but choosing a different option so it only almost happened. I feel you either ignored or didn't understand most of what was said about the build up to these scenes and how they're littered with NTR tropes that don't suddenly become cool because the climax didn't happen. I went over how these scenes/settings you bring up are grade A NTR bait in the first place and I imagine they're probably very well written at that so it's all the more visceral to someone who dislikes it. I imagine you must not be used to avoiding NTR if you're not seeing that but literally everything you're describing is littered with red flags that pretty much never appear where NTR isn't.

Your perception of a double standard only holds because you ignore that people consider themselves as following Rowan's story which I think should be pretty obvious. Feel like I shouldn't have to point this out but the issue people have with NTR is being cucked. I play plenty of female pov/protagonist games that involve cheating/ntr with no issue as long as they don't harp on the SOs feelings. Same goes obviously for male protagonists. There's no issue as long my pov isn't getting cucked. If I go from playing Rowan to watching Alexia almost cheat on him then obviously that's an issue. Like I said before a lot of people seem to fixate on a strict definition of NTR that people don't agree on in the first place and doesn't encompass the spirit of people's issues. In your example Rowan doing it to Alexia is Netori (something most people don't mind/care for) rather than Netorare/netorase (what tons of people hate). Netori/cheating is much more well accepted fetish as evidenced by what you've mistaken as a double standard.

Feel like I'm not properly getting my points across judging by your response so I'll stop here unless you want to PM like someone suggested. Don't want to clutter up this thread anymore especially since I don't have any issue with this game or its devs. Literally just ended up here by chance while looking for malesub/pegging games and wanted to take a quick look to see if anything had changed about the toggle.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Oh God this discussion here again?
Take it to PM before the mods decide to delete everything to clean the thread, again.

Hey, at least it's a fairly civil discussion this time. There hasn't even been any name calling. I don't see why it can't be a perfectly valid topic as long as everyone remain civil. But I won't press the issue either.

Now, this is something I don't understand, or at least see simplistic. If Alexia does something wrong, and Rowan hasn't done anything wrong, why do you have to get into the sharing fetish? I think a logical answer would be that even if you've cheated on your partner, it doesn't necessarily mean you're okay with them sleeping with someone else. I believe it because life is like that.

You don't have to, it is another choice when the time comes. You can either allow whichever person(s) to explore their feelings, or you can shut it down. It's the player's choice

Except this isn't real life. In real life I wouldn't be forced to hear your thoughts about other peoples nice tits. You seem to ignore the fact that someone chooses to write, and thus draw attention to, these things. If my SO told me every time they found someone else attractive or constantly stared at other peoples dicks and tits I would find issue with that too but luckily I don't live in that world.

My argument about choices was that a scene going as far down that road before giving you an option implies what they want you to choose. Every scene/setting you bring up presupposes being okay with these fetishes. If I dislike NTR I don't want to read about my wife being spiked and almost getting cucked but choosing a different option so it only almost happened. I feel you either ignored or didn't understand most of what was said about the build up to these scenes and how they're littered with NTR tropes that don't suddenly become cool because the climax didn't happen. I went over how these scenes/settings you bring up are grade A NTR bait in the first place and I imagine they're probably very well written at that so it's all the more visceral to someone who dislikes it. I imagine you must not be used to avoiding NTR if you're not seeing that but literally everything you're describing is littered with red flags that pretty much never appear where NTR isn't.

Your perception of a double standard only holds because you ignore that people consider themselves as following Rowan's story which I think should be pretty obvious. Feel like I shouldn't have to point this out but the issue people have with NTR is being cucked. I play plenty of female pov/protagonist games that involve cheating/ntr with no issue as long as they don't harp on the SOs feelings. Same goes obviously for male protagonists. There's no issue as long my pov isn't getting cucked. If I go from playing Rowan to watching Alexia almost cheat on him then obviously that's an issue. Like I said before a lot of people seem to fixate on a strict definition of NTR that people don't agree on in the first place and doesn't encompass the spirit of people's issues. In your example Rowan doing it to Alexia is Netori (something most people don't mind/care for) rather than Netorare/netorase (what tons of people hate). Netori/cheating is much more well accepted fetish as evidenced by what you've mistaken as a double standard.

Feel like I'm not properly getting my points across judging by your response so I'll stop here unless you want to PM like someone suggested. Don't want to clutter up this thread anymore especially since I don't have any issue with this game or its devs. Literally just ended up here by chance while looking for malesub/pegging games and wanted to take a quick look to see if anything had changed about the toggle.

Without going into the NTR debate any further, the player is just as much Alexia as they are Rowan. You see the game from both of their perspectives, you make choices for both of them at key moments, and they both spend a good amount of time thinking thoughts and taking actions that the player doesn't have any direct control over. Sure you send a bit more time in Rowan's perspective, but note nearly as much more as you might think. They are co-protagonist. And it's not just me saying this, it is the developers too, it is the reason why the game has the "female protagonist" tag.

To me it's not that different from something like when Rowan thinks about how attractive Cliohna is, but to me she isn't all that (I know Cliohan fans, please don't hurt me). I don't feel particularly tempted by her, but the game is telling me that Rowan is temped by her, and then asks me for input about how I think he should respond. See, Rowan and Alexia are not generic blank slate characters, they have pre-established backgrounds and personality's. And those background and personalities inform most of their actions and thoughts. It's the same reason I don't get that upset when a character on TV cheats on their spouse, It's not my wife cheating, my wife is sitting at her computer next to mine playing her own porn games.

But I suppose that why I just can't see myself as these characters. I just don't have enough control over them to see them as an extension of myself. To me it's more like if I were friends with a writer, and periodically he gets stuck and would turn to me and say "I've got a couple ideas for the direction to take this scene with the minotaur, but I'm not sure which one to pick, what do you think?" Then I look over it and say, "Hmmm, I think she should ask to see his dick, and then immediately burst out laughing and tease him for whipping his dick out right there at the dinner table." Then he responds, "Ha, that's great! Then I'll have him get all embarrassed and self conscious and run out of the room" Then he gets back to writing and my contribution is done until he gets stuck again.