VN Ren'Py Seeking Closure [v0.7.1] [Captain Crystallo]

[Anteron]

Hopefully soon. Getting close to the too long 6 months between updates...

 

[Captain Crystallo]

Haha, I like that on the first page of this thread someone helps out with the "fiancé" problem, but only half way.

fiancé is the guy
fiancée is the girl

So he is going on a trip with his future fiancée.

Fixed, thank you.

Hopefully soon. Getting close to the too long 6 months between updates...

I'm putting the episode together right now and then will move on to testing. It should be up on my Patreon within the next 10 days or so (still hesitant to set a definite release date), and then however long it takes to make its way here

 

[Jacowboy]

This post was initially only meant for my Patreon, but I might as well share it here too.
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Welcome to my open development discussion!

As we’re approaching the end of Part 1, it’s time for me to decide how I’m going to tackle a lot of the issues that have been bugging me for the last couple of months. If I want to make any notable changes to the first half of the game, it has to be now since I don’t want to return to Part 1 once it’s out (outside of the necessary bug fixes, obviously).

Throughout Seeking Closure’s existence, the main three critiques I received were:

1. I hate that Julia is the default girlfriend in the present timeline.
2. Being in the present feels confusing since I, as the player, have no idea what happened in the past so I don’t know which decisions to make.
3. I want to spend more time in the present to get the story going and have a reason to care about the characters introduced there.

The second and third points contradict each other, so with that alone – I can’t please everyone, but there are still changes I can introduce to ensure the game is more enjoyable for players who will discover it in the future here or on Steam.

It’s fair to assume that if you’re reading this, you’re already invested enough to stick with the game even if I keep everything as it is, but I need to consider future players as well.

When I devised my visual novel initially, making Julia the mandatory girlfriend felt like the only “right” choice for the story I wanted to tell. However, after 18 months of development, I regret this decision, particularly since I want to place as big of an emphasis on “player choice” as I can.

In my original storyboard, I wanted to add one chapter in the Present for every two spent in the Past until it catches up to the “current day”. This would allow me to give all the necessary backstory while also developing the characters introduced in the Present. Since I didn’t have any experience creating a story like this, the concept looked fine on paper.

However, I quickly realized that I’d written myself into a corner since it’s not possible to spend a lot of time in the Present timeline without other characters (or the MC) referencing past events. Nevertheless, I couldn’t freely reference the Past since you as the player haven’t experienced it yet and didn’t make the choices that will shape it. This wouldn’t have been an issue in a kinetic novel, but that’s not what I’m doing here.

Chapter 4 was already a bit messy. Even though it didn’t force you to commit to anything, you can have Fleur/Susan/Micaela show renewed interest in you (based on your choices in previous chapters), but since it’s possible to be completely done with them by the end of Part 1, their behavior can make 0 sense in retrospect depending on your decisions.

As such, I decided to stick to the Past timeline until it’s finished to avoid making that issue even bigger. This resulted in all the girls that are only included in the Present feeling forgotten and it will be an uphill battle to make the players care about them later, which is an issue since they have an important role to play in the story.

Another point of critique is the hairstyles of the girls from the past being very different in the present. Similar to most people, I prefer their past looks too, but at the same time, it would be weird if most of them kept the same hair for 5 years. On the other hand, is realism important in this case if the new hairstyle makes people like them less? I honestly don’t know and I might resolve this problem in a poll on a girl-by-girl basis.

With all of that being said, I’m currently considering several options while I gradually speed up development for Chapter 8.

1. Keep everything as is. The laziest option, but one that a lot of existing fans and supporters will likely prefer since they’ve already played through all the problematic parts. However, I obviously would like to receive more supporters over time, so it’s not the optimal solution for me.
2. Only make minor tweaks throughout Part 1, changing and expanding some of the dialogue to be less confusing and/or committal, while also adding more options to abandon paths that you’re no longer interested in.
3. In addition to the above, rework the Julia-related content in Part 1 to make her an optional girlfriend and have a separate choice at the start of Part 2 (or in the end of Part 1) for players who will continue their old saves.
4. Remove all the “Present day” scenes outside of arriving at the hotel and having the “flashback”, while keeping (and adding more) scenes of meeting Julia to build up her character without making her MC’s girlfriend by default. As such, at the start of Part 2, it’ll be up to you if Julia comes with you as your friend or love interest. Another benefit of this approach is that when you start talking to the present-day versions of all the girls, you’ll have full information on how your relationship developed and if you’re still interested in them. The downside is – it makes the story more linear, removing most of the “What happened? How did it come to this?” intrigue from the present timeline. However, since it isn’t delivered in a compelling manner already, maybe it’s not that big of a loss. If you’re a returning player, another drawback is that you’ll have to replay most of the scenes from Chapters 1 and 4 in Part 2, which will feel wonky and immersion-breaking if you continue your old save(s).
5. Reframe the entire story and finish everything in the past, pretending the present timeline never existed, as the MC gets to ride into the sunset at the end of his vacation. This option completely abandons the premise of the story I wanted to tell, but I’m thinking about it for two reasons. Firstly, since there are no signs of the war ending anytime soon, I have no idea how long I’ll manage to avoid getting enlisted into the military against my will. As such, I can disappear any day without warning and you won’t get any closure for the game at all. Secondly, the current projections are that I’ll have electrical power for only about 6-8 hours out of 24 a day, starting from November, and if that happens, this will bring the development process to a near complete halt. I don’t want to choose this option, but if the consensus is “better an unplanned ending than no ending at all”, then maybe it’s the “right” thing to do.

My mind has been split between all these different options for months now and I still can’t commit to a single direction since all of them have significant drawbacks.

As such, if you have any thoughts on the matter, or if you would like to suggest a completely different option, I’m open to hearing you out (even if it’s related to something relatively small like the hairstyle dilemma). That doesn’t mean I’m going to do what someone else tells me to, but it might help me make a decision, while I continue to work on Chapter 8 since most of it is set in stone regardless of anything discussed above.

A part of me didn’t want to write this post since I don’t want to disappoint and upset people who will provide solid arguments that I won’t listen to (since it’s impossible to satisfy everyone), but I still decided to publish it in hopes of gaining some unique insight that I’m lacking at the moment.
View attachment 4088843

Is it too late to give an opinion about this?

 

[Captain Crystallo]

Is it too late to give an opinion about this?

I've more-or-less decided what I'm going to do, but I'm always interested in hearing more thoughts if you'd care to share them.

 

[Jacowboy]

I've more-or-less decided what I'm going to do, but I'm always interested in hearing more thoughts if you'd care to share them.

Well honestly I haven't played the game in a while, so I'm not gonna go into detail... plus I obviously don't know your overall plan and end goal, so it wouldn't really matter, I couldn't give you an accurate opinion without that... that said:

I think that, whatever it is you've decided to do, you should do it asap before you launch on steam... if that means re-writing, re-arranging and re-coding a bunch of the game, so be it... it'll take time, but it'll be worth it... specially for Steam customers.

Sure it sucks if people have to restart a game, but I think at the end of the day that's preferable than contorting yourself around those kinds of things.

In terms of story, I kinda figured it'd be a headache the moment I read the synopsis =P buuuut I do think the larger issue was having the fiancée at the start, most of the problems would probably be somewhat resolved by eliminating her relationship to the MC... you could still introduce her into the plot of the game, but not like that...

Again, I don't remember the specifics right now, but instead of being the fiancée, she could be more like a love interest for the MC... I remember her being the MC's therapist or something like that? So perhaps instead of meaning to ask her in marriage, perhaps the MC wants to bring her there to ask her for something more (a romantic relationship), since he's been thinking about it for a while, but didn't want to create conflicts between them because of their professional relationship or whatever... (or she could also be the one who proposes that trip to help him "heal" from whatever trauma he has, as his therapist, for example).

Point being that you'd give the players the choice of either hooking up with her or reconnecting with someone from his past, without making players feel like assholes for cheating on her and/or breaking her heart like that.

I mean, maybe not exactly THAT, but something like that, which would require maybe some rewrites, but not necessarily an entire rework... you'd probably need to remove her early sex scenes and keep them for later, but from what I remember, you wouldn't need that many changes.

Anways, those are my belated 2 cents... =P

The important bit is the first thing tho: Give priority to a Steam release, because it's more importat to have a good impression on there.

 

[Captain Crystallo]

Well honestly I haven't played the game in a while, so I'm not gonna go into detail... plus I obviously don't know your overall plan and end goal, so it wouldn't really matter, I couldn't give you an accurate opinion without that... that said:

I think that, whatever it is you've decided to do, you should do it asap before you launch on steam... if that means re-writing, re-arranging and re-coding a bunch of the game, so be it... it'll take time, but it'll be worth it... specially for Steam customers.

Sure it sucks if people have to restart a game, but I think at the end of the day that's preferable than contorting yourself around those kinds of things.

In terms of story, I kinda figured it'd be a headache the moment I read the synopsis =P buuuut I do think the larger issue was having the fiancée at the start, most of the problems would probably be somewhat resolved by eliminating her relationship to the MC... you could still introduce her into the plot of the game, but not like that...

Again, I don't remember the specifics right now, but instead of being the fiancée, she could be more like a love interest for the MC... I remember her being the MC's therapist or something like that? So perhaps instead of meaning to ask her in marriage, perhaps the MC wants to bring her there to ask her for something more (a romantic relationship), since he's been thinking about it for a while, but didn't want to create conflicts between them because of their professional relationship or whatever... (or she could also be the one who proposes that trip to help him "heal" from whatever trauma he has, as his therapist, for example).

Point being that you'd give the players the choice of either hooking up with her or reconnecting with someone from his past, without making players feel like assholes for cheating on her and/or breaking her heart like that.

I mean, maybe not exactly THAT, but something like that, which would require maybe some rewrites, but not necessarily an entire rework... you'd probably need to remove her early sex scenes and keep them for later, but from what I remember, you wouldn't need that many changes.

Anways, those are my belated 2 cents... =P

The important bit is the first thing tho: Give priority to a Steam release, because it's more importat to have a good impression on there.

Thank you for taking the time to write everything out.

Having a more noncommittal introduction to Julia is almost definitely happening for the 1.0 (Steam) version of Part 1. I'm just working out the specifics. She's just a doctor, not a therapist (even if she often talks like one when with the MC), but that doesn't detract from the main point you were making.

I still hope to preserve everyone's saves from the older versions by just having them pick the desired option for Julia at the start of Part 2, but we'll see if I can manage to do it.

I will be focusing on Chapter 9 (more of an interlude, but still essential for the plot) and the Steam version soon, but I first have to roll out Chapter 8 and ensure it functions properly.

 

[Dessolos]

I forget is chapter 8 the last update for the past I recall you saying you want to finish it up soon I just forget if that was chapter 8 or 9

 

[Captain Crystallo]

I forget is chapter 8 the last update for the past I recall you saying you want to finish it up soon I just forget if that was chapter 8 or 9

It was supposed to be the last one, but I ended up splitting it.
It already took me 7 months to make, and if I were to include the "what happened in those 5 years" section in Chapter 8 like I originally planned, it would require several more months.

As such, Chapter 8 ends with the MC leaving the resort, but we're not jumping back into the present timeline yet.

 

[Jacowboy]

Having a more noncommittal introduction to Julia is almost definitely happening for the 1.0 (Steam) version of Part 1. I'm just working out the specifics. She's just a doctor, not a therapist (even if she often talks like one when with the MC), but that doesn't detract from the main point you were making.

Yeah I think it's necessary to tweak Julia's (that was her name =P) introduction to the story, because as it is right now, you're basically asking people to cheat on a GF the players don't really know... whereas all the past chicks will get A LOT more development soon thereafter... so let's say Julia is at a clear disadvantage... whereas if you introduce her as just another potential LI, it changes the entire dynamic and allows her more room to be developed and to be able to compete with the others... it's def. the right choice here, imo.

Also, again, I wouldn't worry about saves... I mean, surely fans of the game would rather replay the new version anyways... or well, I know I would.

 

[Dark Prince 19]

It was supposed to be the last one, but I ended up splitting it.
It already took me 7 months to make, and if I were to include the "what happened in those 5 years" section in Chapter 8 like I originally planned, it would require several more months.

As such, Chapter 8 ends with the MC leaving the resort, but we're not jumping back into the present timeline yet.

Oh didn't know about that it was going to have parts, if feasible would you be kind enough to tell how many total parts are we expecting in the game till conclusion, would be a good info to have!

Thanks for reading Dev, best wishes for ahead

 

[Captain Crystallo]

Oh didn't know about that it was going to have parts, if feasible would you be kind enough to tell how many total parts are we expecting in the game till conclusion, would be a good info to have!

Thanks for reading Dev, best wishes for ahead

Just two parts.

Although that means that it's still at least 2 years before this game is done, and I can move on to a different project where I don't feel I'm constantly in over my head .

 

[Dark Prince 19]

Just two parts.

Although that means that it's still at least 2 years before this game is done, and I can move on to a different project where I don't feel I'm constantly in over my head .

That is a fair enough thinking to have but indeed the way you have been creating this project am sure you'll wrap up the game well and move on to another splendid one, as have loved and replayed the content until now on multiple occasions. So it is certainly a game that find quite promising!

Thanks for replying back Dev, best wishes for ahead

 

[MiltonPowers]

Just two parts.

Although that means that it's still at least 2 years before this game is done, and I can move on to a different project where I don't feel I'm constantly in over my head .

I know you feel over your head a lot of the time, but from a player perspective it doesn't show. Your updates are almost flawless with great intriguing story and perfect variable pathing, despite the ambitious task you have set yourself. You are doing great.

 

[Dessolos]

I was talking to a discord friend today and he doesn't like Julia is gonna change from not being our GF ( at least that's what I assumed from what I read) and I randomly thought of a solution that could work but would be to much extra effort and probably already to late to consider as well.

Give players the choice if she is a GF or friend at the start of the game but that would mean having to make change dialogue and potentially extra renders / scenes as well. Tho probably not even worth it I think the amount of players that actually want her to stay as a GF is small as well.

Personally i'm happy for the change you are making whatever it is . This one time I actually really don't want to cheat even just for the sake of seeing said scene as Julia is too sweet to want to do to. Other games I have no problem cause either there is alot of drama in the game or they don't come across as sweet. Plus it's alot more fucked up to do that during a vacation as well which makes me want to do it even less. ( But I was going to if I had to since I prefer others)

 

[Captain Crystallo]

I know you feel over your head a lot of the time, but from a player perspective it doesn't show. Your updates are almost flawless with great intriguing story and perfect variable pathing, despite the ambitious task you have set yourself. You are doing great.

I appreciate the kind words, but I have a feeling that Chapter 8 will make my limitations more visible. I'm still trying my best, but I also wish I could have done a lot more.

I was talking to a discord friend today and he doesn't like Julia is gonna change from not being our GF ( at least that's what I assumed from what I read) and I randomly thought of a solution that could work but would be to much extra effort and probably already to late to consider as well.

Give players the choice if she is a GF or friend at the start of the game but that would mean having to make change dialogue and potentially extra renders / scenes as well. Tho probably not even worth it I think the amount of players that actually want her to stay as a GF is small as well.

Personally i'm happy for the change you are making whatever it is . This one time I actually really don't want to cheat even just for the sake of seeing said scene as Julia is too sweet to want to do to. Other games I have no problem cause either there is alot of drama in the game or they don't come across as sweet. Plus it's alot more fucked up to do that during a vacation as well which makes me want to do it even less. ( But I was going to if I had to since I prefer others)

What you described is the general direction I plan to take. The game starts with them in the car, and the MC briefly thinking about how Julia was helpful, kind, etc, which is why:
a) They started dating a while back and are now going on this trip together so that he can figure out the long-term potential of their relationship. (In this case, most of the scenes with Julia will remain unchanged, so very little extra work for me).

b) He decided to take Julia on a trip as a "thank you" for all her friendly support, and to see if they could potentially start a romantic relationship or if they should remain friends. (This is what I suspect will be the "default" option for most people and this route will require changing most of the scenes with Julia, but it is highly requested and it does make sense.)

 

[Dessolos]

What you described is the general direction I plan to take. The game starts with them in the car, and the MC briefly thinking about how Julia was helpful, kind, etc, which is why:
a) They started dating a while back and are now going on this trip together so that he can figure out the long-term potential of their relationship. (In this case, most of the scenes with Julia will remain unchanged, so very little extra work for me).

b) He decided to take Julia on a trip as a "thank you" for all her friendly support, and to see if they could potentially start a romantic relationship or if they should remain friends. (This is what I suspect will be the "default" option for most people and this route will require changing most of the scenes with Julia, but it is highly requested and it does make sense.)

Oh that is awesome had no idea that was what you were thinking about. I kind of just thought of it just figured id make the suggestion even if it was too late lol. I see why you said might require a game restart and a chance of broken saves.

 

[AlexMpog]

What you described is the general direction I plan to take. The game starts with them in the car, and the MC briefly thinking about how Julia was helpful, kind, etc, which is why:
a) They started dating a while back and are now going on this trip together so that he can figure out the long-term potential of their relationship. (In this case, most of the scenes with Julia will remain unchanged, so very little extra work for me).

b) He decided to take Julia on a trip as a "thank you" for all her friendly support, and to see if they could potentially start a romantic relationship or if they should remain friends. (This is what I suspect will be the "default" option for most people and this route will require changing most of the scenes with Julia, but it is highly requested and it does make sense.)

Oh, that's a great solution man! (in my humble opinion)
Just like in Des case - I know at least one person too who was a bit upset, Julia is his main LI in a game. Honestly - she is my 2nd one too
This mechanics should work for everybody just fine.

Just two parts.

Although that means that it's still at least 2 years before this game is done, and I can move on to a different project where I don't feel I'm constantly in over my head .

I'm sorry you feel this way.
I just wanna say - you're doing an amazing job (despite all the obstacles ).
And your game is one of my favs.

 

[MiltonPowers]

Oh, that's a great solution man! (in my humble opinion)
Just like in Des case - I know at least one person too who was a bit upset, Julia is his main LI in a game. Honestly - she is my 2nd one too
This mechanics should work for everybody just fine.

I don't actually get why someone would be upset, they can still have Julia as an LI, they just now make a choice.

I had one game where my favorite LI was forced at the start and people complained. Dev made a remake and made her optional, didn't bother me one bit. In the remake I can just choose her (it took a little longer to build the relationship, but so that other people could choose someone else without having to cheat or breakup with her, I thought was fair enough).

 

[Captain Crystallo]

Oh, that's a great solution man! (in my humble opinion)
Just like in Des case - I know at least one person too who was a bit upset, Julia is his main LI in a game. Honestly - she is my 2nd one too
This mechanics should work for everybody just fine.

I'm sorry you feel this way.
I just wanna say - you're doing an amazing job (despite all the obstacles ).
And your game is one of my favs.

Thank you, I appreciate it, and I'm very happy you like my game so much

I don't actually get why someone would be upset, they can still have Julia as an LI, they just now make a choice.

I had one game where my favorite LI was forced at the start and people complained. Dev made a remake and made her optional, didn't bother me one bit. In the remake I can just choose her (it took a little longer to build the relationship, but so that other people could choose someone else without having to cheat or breakup with her, I thought was fair enough).

I assume some people think that "rework" means that the original option would no longer be available, and you'd be forced to start the game single, hence why they feel upset.

 

[Jacowboy]

I appreciate the kind words, but I have a feeling that Chapter 8 will make my limitations more visible. I'm still trying my best, but I also wish I could have done a lot more.



What you described is the general direction I plan to take. The game starts with them in the car, and the MC briefly thinking about how Julia was helpful, kind, etc, which is why:
a) They started dating a while back and are now going on this trip together so that he can figure out the long-term potential of their relationship. (In this case, most of the scenes with Julia will remain unchanged, so very little extra work for me).

b) He decided to take Julia on a trip as a "thank you" for all her friendly support, and to see if they could potentially start a romantic relationship or if they should remain friends. (This is what I suspect will be the "default" option for most people and this route will require changing most of the scenes with Julia, but it is highly requested and it does make sense.)

Mmmm... I don't like injecting my ideas and interfering with game development, but FWIW:

The game is called SEEKING Closure... I believe the premise would work better if Julia is the one to initiate the returning trip to the cabin, as a Doctor and as her friend, to help him deal with whatever happened there years ago, as some sort of therapeutic trip, rather than a vacation...

But it's important that SHE is the one who initiates in this instance, because otherwise, no matter who she is to the MC, the MC would just be inviting a potential LI to a supposedly fun & relaxing vacation, just to end up fuckin around her back with other chicks.... it's still a dick move no matter which way you slice it, and I believe most people don't want to play asshole MCs.

The point I'm trying to make has to do more with the dynamic between the two characters, rather than a specific plot idea... I hope I somewhat managed to convey that...

Secondly: I think having two branches at the start is just gonna create more work (and headaches) for you... I really believe you should decide on the best narrative path moving forward for the rest of what you plan to do and make the necessary changes, instead of thinking whether some players will bitch and moan about this or that... simply 'cause that's a fool's errand, imo. If you feel that branching is the best, then by all means