Ren'Py Shattered Minds [v0.18 Beta] [eXtasy Games]

[Bronzescorpion]

Also not an American so dont care about that words political connotation.

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1 as in variety
the quality or state of being composed of many different elements or types the diversity of plant life on that tropical island is staggering

2 as in distinctiveness
the quality or state of being different
there's considerable diversity in the platforms for the two major parties


It isn't about political connotations, as much as it is being clearly understood. You are technically correct in your usage of the word, but you allow for misinterpretation due to the dual definition of diversity and its common usage. Take a look at your sentence:

"As for the game, it is overall good it's just the animations and its lack of diversity"

It isn't clear whether "its" refer to the game or the animations, since diversity is more commonly used in describing different people and variety different objects, it is easy to see why people misunderstood you. You can of course hold your position in being right, because technically you were, but is that really worth it at the cost of not being understood?

That's just my two cents. Just a heads up, I likely won't reply if you want to discuss further, because this is probably already derailing the thread too much, I just wanted to clear up some confusion.

 

[vecinogenerico]

I think I got stuck by a possible bug... may be

I got the Real State quest. Went to talk to the guy but didn't have any powers left so I went to sleep, tried talking to him again but all I get is the option "special properties". Can't seem to trigger anything else. Thought it was going to work further ahead when I get more progress in other quests but finished everything else and I am still stuck....May be I messed up by trying to talk to him without any power left?

Regretably I overwrote my save game

 

[halil123]

I'm sure dev can come up with 15 different animations for each girl if he wanted to, but we would get one update every 6 months. The current pacing is great.

 

[Talmadge]

I think I got stuck by a possible bug... may be

I got the Real State quest. Went to talk to the guy but didn't have any powers left so I went to sleep, tried talking to him again but all I get is the option "special properties". Can't seem to trigger anything else. Thought it was going to work further ahead when I get more progress in other quests but finished everything else and I am still stuck....May be I messed up by trying to talk to him without any power left?

Regretably I overwrote my save game

I didn't get the "special properties" option I don't think. Tried talking to him again after buying the news stand. Nothing. And nothing pops up with the news stand after buying it. It isn't even on the map. So I also don't know if I hit a bug or what. Thanks.

 

[noahh.jaidan]

I didn't get the "special properties" option I don't think. Tried talking to him again after buying the news stand. Nothing. And nothing pops up with the news stand after buying it. It isn't even on the map. So I also don't know if I hit a bug or what. Thanks.

Check the discord. Dev published there a bugfix for that.

 

[sandman85]

Why? Technically all the sex is consensual, because their minds have been altered to want it. You can argue that mind controlling someone into having sex with you constitutes as rape, but it is rather redundant, as the mind control tag already covers it.

When I see the rape tag, I expect to see a sexual act where the victim is against it in the moment, not that they would be against it if their minds hadn't been altered.

Rape is intercourse that is non-consensual, that is the legal terminology. This means that if a person, in their right mind cannot consent to intercourse that it is rape. A drug that alters or changes consent, is an ignorant argument against the at that makes me think that your argument is ignorant. If someone is sleeping, their brain function cannot consent to sex=rape, if you trick someone using anything that alters their thought process or brain function=rape. Tags= here like Drugs, sleep sex, sexual harassment, mind control, are simply here for two reasons. 1. to allow the player a variety of rape options, and 2. and this one is vital; because a lot of kids on here (18+) and to me kids are guys under 25, and sensitive individuals that don't want to feel like the bad guy or fall in love with a fictional character, need to feel good and not get their feelings hurt, knowing that they are actually raping all be it, a fictional character, so they can sleep at night. But hey what do I know, except rape is rape. I don't have a problem with it, it's a kink of mine, and to be honest my fiancée's, but I will allow other's to be all about their feelings either.

 

[grey_shadow]

Rape is intercourse that is non-consensual, that is the legal terminology.

There's the issue. The crime of "rape" is not what the common English word "rape" refers to (there's also the botanical "rape", also known as "rapeseed").

If a drunken hookup is defined as mutual rape (since neither party is in condition to consent), that leaves no good label for "forcible non-consensual penetration of a sexual nature".

 

[Sasugachan]

Mind control is obviously rape, but as stated before it is redundant (and potentially misleading) to put the tag here, because in the context of identifying the explored kinks in avns, the tags rape, mind control, sleep sex, etc all do in fact serve different purposes, even though it's all rape.

 

[PervyParadox]

It's misleading mostly because it is not, in fact, rape.

It's closer to people being influenced/manipulated into sex, which is an ambiguous case of manipulated consent, ergo NOT against the consent itself. If that is rape, then every sexual relationships are too, because everyone is, in a way, influenced one way or another to the decisions that lead to them having sex. Since not every sexual relationships are rape, then this isn't either.

Granted, here the guy does have a cheat code because it is sci-fi, but the same principle applies. Someone charming successfully getting into someone else's pants thanks to their charms isn't rape, it's influence and/or manipulation. That's the same but with superpower.

MC gets the consent using his ability (his "charms"), therefore it's not rape. End of story.

You could debate all day about the ambiguous definition of what a consent is or isn't, sure. Doesn't change the fact that mind control and rape are two different kinks. Some people have one without the other, some people have both. And, honestly, that diversity of preference should be the only necessary proof that these two kinks are in fact different.

 

[ramvivat]

Mind control is obviously rape, but as stated before it is redundant (and potentially misleading) to put the tag here, because in the context of identifying the explored kinks in avns, the tags rape, mind control, sleep sex, etc all do in fact serve different purposes, even though it's all rape.

the circumstances surrounding an event determine everything. without mentioning the circumstances, any mention of an event is fraught with an attempt to manipulate public opinion. it is truly impossible to say whether it was rape or another type of sexual (inter-)action until there is a full overview of the "scene" taking into account all the circumstances surrounding the "action".

 

[Sasugachan]

the circumstances surrounding an event determine everything. without mentioning the circumstances, any mention of an event is fraught with an attempt to manipulate public opinion. it is truly impossible to say whether it was rape or another type of sexual (inter-)action until there is a full overview of the "scene" taking into account all the circumstances surrounding the "action".

Agreed, but for the purposes of tagging this game, I don't think context matters, but actual content, as in whether the sex scenes abide by the rape kink definition or not.

 

[Bronzescorpion]

Rape is intercourse that is non-consensual, that is the legal terminology. This means that if a person, in their right mind cannot consent to intercourse that it is rape. A drug that alters or changes consent, is an ignorant argument against the at that makes me think that your argument is ignorant. If someone is sleeping, their brain function cannot consent to sex=rape, if you trick someone using anything that alters their thought process or brain function=rape.

Calling my argument ignorant is half admitting you didn't understand it. Redundancy is the keyword here. It is pretty simple really, they don't consent to having their minds altered and therefore they consent to the sex as a consequence. The disregard of consent has already (and only) happened with the mind altering.

If you are trying to argue from a legal point of view, which is rather a pointless activity here, the main issue wouldn't be rape either, it would be the much worse crime of taking over somebody's mind and enslaving them. Since rape is secondary to this, arguing that the kink rather than the legal definition should be prioritized isn't ignorant.

Tags= here like Drugs, sleep sex, sexual harassment, mind control, are simply here for two reasons. 1. to allow the player a variety of rape options, and 2. and this one is vital; because a lot of kids on here (18+) and to me kids are guys under 25, and sensitive individuals that don't want to feel like the bad guy...

Completely nonsense arguments.

1) Tags doesn't allow the player variety, the games provides that regardless of tags. Tags only allows for ease to find games that suits ones preferences. Using rape in the broadest sense doesn't do anything good here, it actually defeats the very purpose of the tag.

Take the "corruption" tag as an example, it has essentially become moot. It can refer from the complete alteration of a person's mind to the tiniest of nudging that makes a person give in and lose their innocence, with all the options in between. You don't really know what the tag entails and it is only useful for the persons you described in your second point, so they can filter it out.

2) Speaking of which, the absence of the rape tag isn't going to be thing that makes the players you described try out the game, as their are plenty of other red flags to them. On the other hand, those who doesn't enjoy rape depicted as lack of consent in the act would be deterred from trying the game due to the misleading tag if present.

Being practical, using the tags as a way for people to find and exclude kinks specific to them is way more important than trying to argue from a legal or any other point of view.

 

[Gojii]

Manipulation/influencing isn't rape. Its shitty, but in the end the individual is convinced that they want to do something. That's why the idea of stockholm syndrome is a thing, and corruption tag exists.

Even the game makes it clear in the start that you can't just walk up and immediately force them to have sex. That sort of mind control one could argue is tantamount to rape. MC has to actually manipulate and influence them to get over any psychological hurdles they would have. Its more brainwashing/manipulation that true "mind control" in the sense most think of.

 

[sandman85]

There's the issue. The crime of "rape" is not what the common English word "rape" refers to (there's also the botanical "rape", also known as "rapeseed").

If a drunken hookup is defined as mutual rape (since neither party is in condition to consent), that leaves no good label for "forcible non-consensual penetration of a sexual nature".

this is the actually “English” tradition definition of rape: Rape is a sexual assault that involves sexual intercourse or penetration without consent. It can be carried out by force, coercion, or abuse of authority. Everything else you said is just stupid.

 

[Bronzescorpion]

this is the actually “English” tradition definition of rape: Rape is a sexual assault that involves sexual intercourse or penetration without consent. It can be carried out by force, coercion, or abuse of authority. Everything else you said is just stupid.

This definition doesn't suit your argument, since neither force, coercion nor abuse of authority is being used in this game. You would either have to stretch the definition of force or coercion to fit the mind alteration here and at that point it becomes even more silly to include the rape tag instead of just going with the mind control.

 

[Jaga Telesin]

this is the actually “English” tradition definition of rape: Rape is a sexual assault that involves sexual intercourse or penetration without consent. It can be carried out by force, coercion, or abuse of authority. Everything else you said is just stupid.

Wrong. Rape is "forced sex", where the act is performed against active will. When there's resistance during the attempt, it's rape. When there isn't, it cannot be considered rape.

What you're describing is mental rape, which is a completely different kind. In this case, for the tags on this forum (and for most people playing AVNs), Mind Control covers that mental aspect. Rape is and always will be, a violent act where the victim attempts to resist. That isn't happening here, since Mind Control is in use and already covered it. Mind Control changes the will of the person controlled, so there's no physical rape going on. If you want to call Mind Control a form of rape, I don't think people will disagree much. But it has it's own separate tag, so the rape tag has no application here.

 

[Gojii]

Also, to be blunt I think we're all getting hung up on the nuance of "is manipulating them via suggestion into wanting sex rape" or not. Its still mind control, and its grey. Personally, if there's mind control antics going on, you shouldn't be hung up on the specifics. Probably best we all just drop it, as the back and forth (which I got into just now) is just derailing things... Better make a thread in off-topic forums or something, as I think we won't be going anywhere with this. tl;dr this argument about rape/mind control etc is actually a bit much looking at it. A thread discussing if mind control = rape is better.



Back to the game, is it just that we're probably in the heart in the game's plot yet, or does a lot of the game feel underwhelming? I'm not talking animations and the like. Is it just that the characters have a lot of disney-esque expressions at times, that's just giving me that uncanny valley vibe and I'm not getting into it?

 

[Bronzescorpion]

Better make a thread in off-topic forums or something, as I think we won't be going anywhere with this. tl;dr this argument about rape/mind control etc is actually a bit much looking at it. A thread discussing if mind control = rape is better.

It is somewhat important which tags gets and don't gets added to a game, because a lot of people filter by those and it can potentially keep a lot of people off the game and by that lessen the support of the game, which could hurt it in the long run. Given that multiple people are chipping in and it isn't just two going head to head also shows that it is important to people. This isn't merely a philosophical discussion, but rather a response to the statement "rape tag is needed".

 

[Dereck112]

It is somewhat important which tags gets and don't gets added to a game, because a lot of people filter by those and it can potentially keep a lot of people off the game and by that lessen the support of the game, which could hurt it in the long run. Given that multiple people are chipping in and it isn't just two going head to head also shows that it is important to people. This isn't merely a philosophical discussion, but rather a response to the statement "rape tag is needed".

Is not

 

[Gojii]

It is somewhat important which tags gets and don't gets added to a game, because a lot of people filter by those and it can potentially keep a lot of people off the game and by that lessen the support of the game, which could hurt it in the long run. Given that multiple people are chipping in and it isn't just two going head to head also shows that it is important to people. This isn't merely a philosophical discussion, but rather a response to the statement "rape tag is needed".

Generally I agree. But constantly arguing in circles about it won't solve anything. Its devolved into the f95 equivalent of arguing "what the word 'is' is" at this point. Its nuanced.

But if people feel so inclined to argue about it, sure, I'll bite and give my take on this circular argument:

The individuals consider themselves giving consent. Its not outright mind control and more akin to brainwashing or manipulating them, giving them a stockholm syndrome like effect via corruption. We have corruption and mind control tags separate from rape for a reason. The characters perceive themselves as giving consent. They have been influenced to think that way.

That's part of the whole point of mind control in this scenario. MC isn't interested in raping them, he's interested in making them WANT to accept his advances and suggestions by using his powers. Just because someone may not like corrupting people and it makes them feel squeamish, doesn't mean rape automatically applies.

This is much closer to as if someone loses their memories and hookups with someone they wouldn't have beforehand. Rape tag would imply a more physical, direct and immediate violation of them. This game easily is covered via corruption and mind control. Furthermore, MC has to influence them over time. He can't just immediately make them into mindless husks. One could argue a game like THAT could qualify for rape tag.

In short, as the game stands, and it hasn't been used in a manner to that of what typically applies for the genre. Corruption and mind control are the means used for sexual advances, not outright raping them. When someone would look at this game and see rape tag, they'd assume they're using it like all the meme tier hentai of some FUB/faceless generic guy using the hypnosis apps/etc and immediately fucking them. (Saimin Seishidou, Hypno Blink, etc).