- Nov 14, 2017
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- Thread starter Crazygamer43
- Start date
- Nov 21, 2017
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I'd prefer to see her in a kimono, wrapped with an obi, a cherry blossom in her hair, and chopsticks in her hand, but that's me.
- Apr 24, 2024
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Hope it's just too much to drink and not something like Alzheimer's. He used to be a decent person to interact with.
- Jul 8, 2017
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i guess i am just sad that i won't get to see the story you wanted to tell, whether i liked it or not
- Jan 12, 2021
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Regarding the people who are upset about Lilly and Abby, does anyone happen to know if there's a major overlap with the people who are upset about Frank's insecurity? It would be a bit funny if that were the case.
I was going through the plot today and I noticed that there was a discussion that a potential Latino or Hispanic background for the Oxton girls didn't come up until Rebecca's side story. We were wrong about that. On the day Lilly finds out what her ex-boyfriend and her father have been up to, the following dialog between Becca and Lilly occurred:
Becca: How was it? Best taco you've ever eaten Lil?
Lilly: ...
Becca: Be honest.
Lilly: ... Abue's are better.
(...)
Becca: Yeah... Well... She has like sixty years on me.
As someone with no knowledge of Spanish, it wasn't obvious to me, but with the realization from Becca's story, it is of course obvious that Abue is short for Abuela.
I was going through the plot today and I noticed that there was a discussion that a potential Latino or Hispanic background for the Oxton girls didn't come up until Rebecca's side story. We were wrong about that. On the day Lilly finds out what her ex-boyfriend and her father have been up to, the following dialog between Becca and Lilly occurred:
Becca: How was it? Best taco you've ever eaten Lil?
Lilly: ...
Becca: Be honest.
Lilly: ... Abue's are better.
(...)
Becca: Yeah... Well... She has like sixty years on me.
As someone with no knowledge of Spanish, it wasn't obvious to me, but with the realization from Becca's story, it is of course obvious that Abue is short for Abuela.
- Nov 21, 2017
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Strange thing is that posts on other threads are consistent with his past ones. Only on here did it go off the rails. *shrug*
- Nov 14, 2017
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Sorry, digging up an old post here (October 2023!), but I find the topic quite interesting and very relevant to the overall story.
While I totally agree with your pecking order in the current family dynamics (ie Becca first (unofficially), then Frank, then Becca (officially) and the rest of the girls with Lilly first but the gap shrinking), I think Becca is more complex than that and she actually wants *Frank* to be top dog, but he isn't there yet, so meanwhile, she does what needs to be done to bring about what she (and the rest of the family, at least in her mind) wants.
Becca's "dominance" is totally different from that of Shannon, for example. Shannon is the kind of person who sucks all the air out of a room and absolutely needs to dominate/crush others, while Becca is more about leading them gently to where she wants them to go (preferably without them even realizing what is happening). Of course, if need be, she can be blunt and assertive, too (especially with Lilly, who is more about power dynamics than subtlety), but in the end, I'm pretty sure that her dream scenario is the one where, when all the family is together with no secrets and Abby has been brought into the harem to everyone's satisfaction, she relinquishes control over to Frank and falls back to #2 in the pecking order, putting her manipulative tendencies to sleep as long as they're not needed (which doesn't mean that she wouldn't be tempted to "usurp" Frank's power again in her subtle way should the situation warrant it in her mind, ie should he need her active help to get out of a sticky situation).
Also, don't sleep on Mei. I can totally see a scenario in which, despite her very submissive front, she could climb up to #3 without Lilly even realizing it.
- Nov 21, 2017
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From what we've seen in the side story with Becca, she's been planning what she's trying to do with the family for years.Sorry, digging up an old post here (October 2023!), but I find the topic quite interesting and very relevant to the overall story.
While I totally agree with your pecking order in the current family dynamics (ie Becca first (unofficially), then Frank, then Becca (officially) and the rest of the girls with Lilly first but the gap shrinking), I think Becca is more complex than that and she actually wants *Frank* to be top dog, but he isn't there yet, so meanwhile, she does what needs to be done to bring about what she (and the rest of the family, at least in her mind) wants.
Becca's "dominance" is totally different from that of Shannon, for example. Shannon is the kind of person who sucks all the air out of a room and absolutely needs to dominate/crush others, while Becca is more about leading them gently to where she wants them to go (preferably without them even realizing what is happening). Of course, if need be, she can be blunt and assertive, too (especially with Lilly, who is more about power dynamics than subtlety), but in the end, I'm pretty sure that her dream scenario is the one where, when all the family is together with no secrets and Abby has been brought into the harem to everyone's satisfaction, she relinquishes control over to Frank and falls back to #2 in the pecking order, putting her manipulative tendencies to sleep as long as they're not needed (which doesn't mean that she wouldn't be tempted to "usurp" Frank's power again in her subtle way should the situation warrant it in her mind, ie should he need her active help to get out of a sticky situation).
Also, don't sleep on Mei. I can totally see a scenario in which, despite her very submissive front, she could climb up to #3 without Lilly even realizing it.
I have a feeling that once her plan is finalized she'll step back a bit and just enjoy the fruits of her labor.
As for Mei, I don't see her ever trying to climb any higher in the hierarchy. While she does enjoy the kink of seeing the others "punished", it doesn't seem like she wants to be above them in any other aspect.
That's just my take on it. Time will tell.
- Jan 12, 2021
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No problem, a short year can certainly give us new insights into dynamics, which is definitely the case.Sorry, digging up an old post here (October 2023!), but I find the topic quite interesting and very relevant to the overall story.
While I totally agree with your pecking order in the current family dynamics (ie Becca first (unofficially), then Frank, then Becca (officially) and the rest of the girls with Lilly first but the gap shrinking), I think Becca is more complex than that and she actually wants *Frank* to be top dog, but he isn't there yet, so meanwhile, she does what needs to be done to bring about what she (and the rest of the family, at least in her mind) wants.
Becca's "dominance" is totally different from that of Shannon, for example. Shannon is the kind of person who sucks all the air out of a room and absolutely needs to dominate/crush others, while Becca is more about leading them gently to where she wants them to go (preferably without them even realizing what is happening). Of course, if need be, she can be blunt and assertive, too (especially with Lilly, who is more about power dynamics than subtlety), but in the end, I'm pretty sure that her dream scenario is the one where, when all the family is together with no secrets and Abby has been brought into the harem to everyone's satisfaction, she relinquishes control over to Frank and falls back to #2 in the pecking order, putting her manipulative tendencies to sleep as long as they're not needed (which doesn't mean that she wouldn't be tempted to "usurp" Frank's power again in her subtle way should the situation warrant it in her mind, ie should he need her active help to get out of a sticky situation).
Also, don't sleep on Mei. I can totally see a scenario in which, despite her very submissive front, she could climb up to #3 without Lilly even realizing it.
I agree with you that Becca will most likely relinquish her position once all goals have been achieved and from then on will support Frank and the others from the shadows, as she did, for example, to get one over on Lilly's ex and the work colleague. But I could also imagine that towards the end, because some part of her plan doesn't quite work out, Becca has a breakdown (like Abby when she finds out Frank isn't her father or Lilly when she catches her boyfriend cheating and then finds out the truth about her father) and we see more Becca from 5 or more years ago.
I also agree with you that Becca's dominance is different from her mother's. As you describe it yourself, Becca is usually more of the subtle manipulator while Shannon's temperament (very similar to Lilly's temperament) makes her more of a domineering tyrant. Very fittingly, Becca also described her mother as a bully, so Frank could write a book about his marriage to Shannon: The Bully I Once Loved or My Ex the Bully.
So far, however, I disagree with Mei. Despite her fetish, I don't see the need for her to go anywhere big; so far she's happy to be with Frank and get on well with the others. Something very similar to the description Becca once gave of Abby.
I think the pecking order will establish itself in the long term:
Frank
Becca
Abby
Meiko/Lilly
One reason I see for this is that Abby becomes more dominant in her dynamics with others over time, or more and more of her mother's characteristics come to the surface, I refer to the interaction between Abby and Shannon when she realized that Lilly and Becca are gone. Secondly, I could see Lilly becoming more passive. She no longer has to worry about losing Abby, the problem with her father is solved and generally the dynamic in this constellation is much more harmonious than with schoolyard bully Shannon at the top. But I would like to see Lilly, like Abby, get the chance to give her father a piece of her mind. Or her fist, as she has a nasty right hook.
To clarify, I'm not saying that Mei *wants* to go up in the pecking order (she doesn't, imho), just that it could potentially happen organically over time (her "mistress of punishments" position is bound to give her more confidence in herself, and she may end up with the official position of girlfriend--or even wife--for appearances' sake).
At the same time, I think, too, that a Lilly finally at peace and content will let herself slip down the pecking order and just enjoy life (thus ending all the way down at #5), while Abby should grow in confidence and become the dominant force in their relationship. You may totally be right that Abby ends up above Mei, though (Mei will always remain diffident to basically everyone anyway, so her standing might be more difficult to ascertain than the other girls' due to her meek and shy nature).
- Jul 12, 2020
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The difference between dominant and domineering is something many fail to see/understand.
Great post LK.
- Jan 12, 2021
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JQuillon I see your points.
By the way, I wonder what Crystal's reaction would be if she found out that Frank was involved with his ex's daughters. We know from a flashback that she wasn't on good terms with Shannon and might be even less so after Shannon's affair (“You had the same expression after that nutjob dumped you”) and that she also seemed to have a good relationship with Jess (Crystal was actively trying to get Jess and Frank together at the campfire, when that didn't work she said “Frank, I love you, but you are a moron. .”, and at the campfire when the three of them are sitting together Jess says that she's sitting with her best friends) and so I think she would find it funny. Since she and Jess got along well, and she has no positive feelings for Shannon, I also think she will have had a serious talk with Frank after he got back together with Shannon. I think she was also concerned about her niece and daughter of a good friend (aka Abby). Obviously because of Shannon, but also because she wouldn't have known how Becca and Lilly tick. I think she may have met the girls at some point before the wedding, simply to reassure herself, as she was already a mother at the time and the maternal instinct is not so easy to switch off.
The fact that Abby quickly built up a good relationship with the other two girls and that Becca, unlike her mother, was quiet and introverted must have been reassuring for her. But I think she will also have talked to Frank about Lilly and her problems. Who knows, maybe she also gave Frank a few tips about Lilly.
Come to think of it, I have to say that Crystal was probably one of the few people who didn't take any shit from Shannon. The other two obviously Jess and Abby.
I'm also very pleasantly surprised that seemingly everyone in the family (I'm unsure about his father, as we don't hear much from Frank's father other than “We moved when my dad got a promotion and moving was inevitable”) was so supportive of Jess. We do know that Crystal was an active Frank+Jess supporter and I now believe that everyone in his family more or less shipped the two. That would also explain his mother's reaction (“Finally!”) when Jess informed her that Frank had finally proposed.
In general, when it comes to Shannon, I can't help but notice that pretty much the only person who calls Frank by his real name “Francis” is Shannon. You could say that this might be because Shannon was brought up strictly by her mother, but at least I think I recognize a certain pattern:
Jess called him Frankie. I think the only times she called him something else were when they introduced themselves (here she called him Frank and then Frankie when she started teasing him in a friendly, playful way) and I think after Frank showed her the engagement ring and she explained what he had just earned.
Shannon called him Francis pretty much from the point she knew his name. There may have been exceptions, but the fact that her face looked so much like her 39 year old face when she was about 16, combined with her hair style at the time, which didn't suit her at all, disturbs me so much that I'm not going to look into it any further.
Abby usually calls him Dad or Daddy, except for the brief period when she was unsure what to call Frank.
Becca only secretly called him Dad for a long time, in front of others Frank. She does say that Lilly was her primary reason for this, but I think another massive factor was Shannon, who very likely would have read into it that Becca was on Frank's side and therefore would have seen a threat to her power role.
Apart from that, pretty much everyone who calls him by his first name really only calls him Frank, including Lilly, who wasn't particularly enthusiastic about Frank most of the time, and Crystal, his sister.
So if we put Abby and Becca in the father-daughter dynamic bucket, regardless of any legal or potential blood relationship factors, that leaves Shannon and Jess.
With Jess, it's more, in my estimation, playful, friendly. Maybe a little flirty, who knows. With Shannon, I get the impression that it's a little bit top-down. The only people I would actively see calling Frank “Francis” would either be his parents, grandparents or people in authoritarian roles, people who would be above Frank in familial or social hierarchies. It may be far-fetched, but if we look at Shannon's further development, I can certainly imagine that she has always seen herself above Frank, even if she wasn't actively aware of it at the time.
Maviarab
Thanks, I'm unsure how much of this is due to my language tool. But it's pretty obvious that how Becca and Shannon exert their dominance and with what motivation is fundamentally different. Shannon is a tyrant through and through. With Becca, it's more loving strictness with nudges in the right direction, usually in the direction of Frank. Although I can totally see that if someone were to cross her loved ones, she could destroy them so badly that even Shannon would be afraid of Becca.
By the way, I wonder what Crystal's reaction would be if she found out that Frank was involved with his ex's daughters. We know from a flashback that she wasn't on good terms with Shannon and might be even less so after Shannon's affair (“You had the same expression after that nutjob dumped you”) and that she also seemed to have a good relationship with Jess (Crystal was actively trying to get Jess and Frank together at the campfire, when that didn't work she said “Frank, I love you, but you are a moron. .”, and at the campfire when the three of them are sitting together Jess says that she's sitting with her best friends) and so I think she would find it funny. Since she and Jess got along well, and she has no positive feelings for Shannon, I also think she will have had a serious talk with Frank after he got back together with Shannon. I think she was also concerned about her niece and daughter of a good friend (aka Abby). Obviously because of Shannon, but also because she wouldn't have known how Becca and Lilly tick. I think she may have met the girls at some point before the wedding, simply to reassure herself, as she was already a mother at the time and the maternal instinct is not so easy to switch off.
The fact that Abby quickly built up a good relationship with the other two girls and that Becca, unlike her mother, was quiet and introverted must have been reassuring for her. But I think she will also have talked to Frank about Lilly and her problems. Who knows, maybe she also gave Frank a few tips about Lilly.
Come to think of it, I have to say that Crystal was probably one of the few people who didn't take any shit from Shannon. The other two obviously Jess and Abby.
I'm also very pleasantly surprised that seemingly everyone in the family (I'm unsure about his father, as we don't hear much from Frank's father other than “We moved when my dad got a promotion and moving was inevitable”) was so supportive of Jess. We do know that Crystal was an active Frank+Jess supporter and I now believe that everyone in his family more or less shipped the two. That would also explain his mother's reaction (“Finally!”) when Jess informed her that Frank had finally proposed.
In general, when it comes to Shannon, I can't help but notice that pretty much the only person who calls Frank by his real name “Francis” is Shannon. You could say that this might be because Shannon was brought up strictly by her mother, but at least I think I recognize a certain pattern:
Jess called him Frankie. I think the only times she called him something else were when they introduced themselves (here she called him Frank and then Frankie when she started teasing him in a friendly, playful way) and I think after Frank showed her the engagement ring and she explained what he had just earned.
Shannon called him Francis pretty much from the point she knew his name. There may have been exceptions, but the fact that her face looked so much like her 39 year old face when she was about 16, combined with her hair style at the time, which didn't suit her at all, disturbs me so much that I'm not going to look into it any further.
Abby usually calls him Dad or Daddy, except for the brief period when she was unsure what to call Frank.
Becca only secretly called him Dad for a long time, in front of others Frank. She does say that Lilly was her primary reason for this, but I think another massive factor was Shannon, who very likely would have read into it that Becca was on Frank's side and therefore would have seen a threat to her power role.
Apart from that, pretty much everyone who calls him by his first name really only calls him Frank, including Lilly, who wasn't particularly enthusiastic about Frank most of the time, and Crystal, his sister.
So if we put Abby and Becca in the father-daughter dynamic bucket, regardless of any legal or potential blood relationship factors, that leaves Shannon and Jess.
With Jess, it's more, in my estimation, playful, friendly. Maybe a little flirty, who knows. With Shannon, I get the impression that it's a little bit top-down. The only people I would actively see calling Frank “Francis” would either be his parents, grandparents or people in authoritarian roles, people who would be above Frank in familial or social hierarchies. It may be far-fetched, but if we look at Shannon's further development, I can certainly imagine that she has always seen herself above Frank, even if she wasn't actively aware of it at the time.
Maviarab
Thanks, I'm unsure how much of this is due to my language tool. But it's pretty obvious that how Becca and Shannon exert their dominance and with what motivation is fundamentally different. Shannon is a tyrant through and through. With Becca, it's more loving strictness with nudges in the right direction, usually in the direction of Frank. Although I can totally see that if someone were to cross her loved ones, she could destroy them so badly that even Shannon would be afraid of Becca.
Oh yes. Becca is a sweetheart at heart, but she can turn full Mama Bear should anyone threaten her family unit.
That is the same reason why we love her...Oh yes. Becca is a sweetheart at heart, but she can turn full Mama Bear should anyone threaten her family unit.
- Nov 22, 2020
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Lilly tried to accuse Frank to get him oit of the house? I don't remember about it.