Recommending Story-first games

5.00 star(s) 8 Votes

desmosome

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Sep 5, 2018
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Your call. It didn't occur to me, but you're right, the simplest way to solve for realism is to just literally write about an actual historical harem. :unsure:
The only problem is that this imperial harem belongs to the emperor lol. Harem bois would be crying NTR if the MC isn't the emperor (which would be a boring story).

Starting as a son of a concubine or something and maneuvering your way into higher positions of power and influence could make an interesting plot. You can add some risky sex with some harem members and eventually, claim the throne and get all the pussy. But to give the story any merit, it will have to focus on the palace politics rather than some goal to claim the harem.
 
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The only problem is that this imperial harem belongs to the emperor lol. Harem bois would be crying NTR if the MC isn't the emperor (which would be a boring story).
I dunno. made being the leader of a country a downright fraught proposition.
 

desmosome

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Sep 5, 2018
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I dunno. made being the leader of a country a downright fraught proposition.
Well, Emperor MC could work. But then, large parts of the harem is basically working against you, as is the case in pretty much all dramas depicting this period. The harem members' primary concern is placing their own offspring as the heir and eventual ruler. They don't always have the Emperor's best interests in mind lol. And since you have the highest authority in the house, the challenges have to be raise as well. Gotta think about stuff like war and rebellion in addition to the scheming and politics.
 
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Nov 9, 2022
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This is the single biggest weakness of To Be A King. The story is pointless because there are no stakes. What's left is just a cookie cutter girl collector.
This isn't going to be a popular opinion in this thread, probably, but... if you're going to make a girl-collector for the sake of making a girl-collector? Go all in. Make it the story of a slaver... no, a sex slave trainer... no, an infamous husband-and-wife sex trade team who lead a cabal that prowls the countryside for unattended maidens, captures them, trains them into the perfect sex slaves, and then sells them directly to the world's most wealthy and powerful men to sate unspeakable appetites.

Then, once you've established that as the audience's expectation, maybe you could reveal that they're secretly antiheroes with hearts of gold making the best of an unfair life situation, or something. Maybe the women live better lives than they ever would have had in society, and they work hard to make sure they match them with a world leader who will take good care of them.

Nobody will ever mistake it as progressive, of course, but you're not trying to convince your detractors, at that point. You're trying to convince your readers.
 

Hildegardt

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Oct 18, 2017
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I feel like it's difficult to argue that the story comes first, if we start out with the premise of making a harem happen. Seems pretty self-serving.

Imo harems are better off in games that focus on gameplay rather than story, like management games and dating sims. Because I just can't see how over-the top wish fulfillment wouldn't make a story more contrived and less immersive.
Characters have to be dumbed down to make the harem happen. Male characters either don't exist or are one-dimensional and bad, so they don't pose any threat or alternative to the protag. Female characters have no agency and get their traits split into multiple characters of different sizes and hair colour for variety's sake.
I think "Mythos" is the only harem game I know of, in which all of the characters are allowed to play an actual role in the story. Most of the time it's more like in "Artemis", where a majority of the characters are superfluous (e.g. June, Reina and Paige are all basically the same character).

But I also think that the dumbing down of harem games is partly the fault of the self-proclaimed "harem community" and their often rather toxic demands. It seems like they want the same tropes regurgitated game after game and every time a dev tries something less contrived they cause a shitstorm.

A classic love triangle? Ntr vibes, ruined LIs.
Relationship trouble or a wife/gf with a past? Ruined LI.
Female antagonist antagonising the protag? Femdom REEEE, ruined LI.
Flawed/underdog protag or the classic hero's journey? Spineless MC, cuck game.
Kink lifestyle? Shameless sluts, ruined LIs.
Sexually active female characters? Ntr vibes, cuck game and cuck dev.
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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I feel like it's difficult to argue that the story comes first, if we start out with the premise of making a harem happen. Seems pretty self-serving.
I think a realistic harem game is possible, but there might not be enough of an audience for it.

In an actual harem, the quality of life - and very often the survival - of women depend on currying favour with the harem's owner. This results in lots of plotting and backstabbing. Wars have been started with such schemes. I'd love to see that play out in a game!

Unfortunately, for AVNs the word harem has been bastardized to mean "happy orgy with a One Penis Policy" and that's just boring :/
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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Yeah. An interesting story-first harem game would likely have a female protag too. How she entered the harem, how she felt at first, how others saw her, how she embraced the situation and (likely) started working her way to eventually become the lord's favorite. That's demanding a great insight from the writer into how harems usually worked, the power dynamics and ambitions within them, plus the female pov.

I guess for the average dev it's just easier to go with a 'magic penis gets them all' type of story
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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How she entered the harem, how she felt at first, how others saw her, how she embraced the situation and (likely) started working her way to eventually become the lord's favorite.
Heh, there are about two dozen Turkish period dramas set in the Ottoman Court with that exact plot :D They are all crazy popular in South America for some reason.
 

Hildegardt

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Oct 18, 2017
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Unfortunately, for AVNs the word harem has been bastardized to mean "happy orgy with a One Penis Policy" and that's just boring :/
I think that's a weeb thing. Some people seem so immersed in anime and hentai that they don't even realize how tropey it is, or even if they realize, they still never want anything different.

I've seen it quite a few times now, a new dev coming onto the scene and the community lashing out because of some tagging or genre faux pas. I feel like before F95zone porn games and AVNs were much more focused on comedy and friskiness.
Somewhere along the way the audience lost its humour and the tagging system became very serious business. The problem is that f95zone is a pretty big and influential website, so the tags and the community meta somewhat shape the content that gets produced. But tags like harem and ntr have too much baggage and can be rather limiting for devs outside of this bubble.
 
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camube

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Jun 4, 2022
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But I also think that the dumbing down of harem games is partly the fault of the self-proclaimed "harem community" and their often rather toxic demands
I really think this is a western AVN players thing and not a weeb thing. Infidelity, netorare, and messy love triangles are pretty common theme in both korean and japanese adult stories.
 
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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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Moving on from the harem thing, does anyone else find it annoying when characters in a dialogue talk to the player instead of each other? For example:

Percy: That bastard's gonna attract the wrong kind of attention.
Aegon: Can't blame him. As Henry's assistant, he's one of the last loose ends they have.
Percy and Aegon clearly know the person they're referring to, so "Henry's assistant" is there only for the reader's benefit. It's one of those "show, don't tell" issues, and it really annoys me. Enough to make me pause playing and write this post :)
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
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Moving on from the harem thing, does anyone else find it annoying when characters in a dialogue talk to the player instead of each other? For example:



Percy and Aegon clearly know the person they're referring to, so "Henry's assistant" is there only for the reader's benefit. It's one of those "show, don't tell" issues, and it really annoys me. Enough to make me pause playing and write this post :)
It's just one of those things along with over-reliance on exposition and internal monologues, weak story structure, on the nose writing, etc.. A result of amateur writing because... well, most devs are not actual writers. I don't get too annoyed by it. Instead, I try to praise devs that show something better in their prose.
 

boobsrcool

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Apr 1, 2022
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I'd like to mention a game that published recently by Jeevant with the author being BuuPlays and it seems like it has an amazing potential for a great story!
The audio feedback for scenes is extremely well made and fitting. The story however is a bit rushed but overall I'd recommend it since by first release it shows potential.

The game in question: https://f95zone.to/threads/nephilim-v0-1-buuplays.143045/
Fantasy and romance tags i'm in

similarly throwing in a recommendation for https://f95zone.to/threads/homelander-v0-03b-jabbonkgames.114874/
 
Nov 9, 2022
296
423
Moving on from the harem thing, does anyone else find it annoying when characters in a dialogue talk to the player instead of each other? For example:



Percy and Aegon clearly know the person they're referring to, so "Henry's assistant" is there only for the reader's benefit. It's one of those "show, don't tell" issues, and it really annoys me. Enough to make me pause playing and write this post :)
As you know, jufot, I'm in the minority on this. But what you may not know is that I prefer it to having no idea what's going on. For you see, I don't always play the whole game in one sitting. In other words, (breaks down into a complicated series of subtle character interactions and interpretive dance.)
 
Nov 9, 2022
296
423
I feel like it's difficult to argue that the story comes first, if we start out with the premise of making a harem happen. Seems pretty self-serving.

Imo harems are better off in games that focus on gameplay rather than story, like management games and dating sims. Because I just can't see how over-the top wish fulfillment wouldn't make a story more contrived and less immersive.
Characters have to be dumbed down to make the harem happen. Male characters either don't exist or are one-dimensional and bad, so they don't pose any threat or alternative to the protag. Female characters have no agency and get their traits split into multiple characters of different sizes and hair colour for variety's sake.
I think "Mythos" is the only harem game I know of, in which all of the characters are allowed to play an actual role in the story. Most of the time it's more like in "Artemis", where a majority of the characters are superfluous (e.g. June, Reina and Paige are all basically the same character).

But I also think that the dumbing down of harem games is partly the fault of the self-proclaimed "harem community" and their often rather toxic demands. It seems like they want the same tropes regurgitated game after game and every time a dev tries something less contrived they cause a shitstorm.

A classic love triangle? Ntr vibes, ruined LIs.
Relationship trouble or a wife/gf with a past? Ruined LI.
Female antagonist antagonising the protag? Femdom REEEE, ruined LI.
Flawed/underdog protag or the classic hero's journey? Spineless MC, cuck game.
Kink lifestyle? Shameless sluts, ruined LIs.
Sexually active female characters? Ntr vibes, cuck game and cuck dev.
Okay. :unsure:

What about a "reverse harem," where it's one woman hooking up with a bunch of men concurrently? Is that also unrealistic?
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
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Okay. :unsure:

What about a "reverse harem," where it's one woman hooking up with a bunch of men concurrently? Is that also unrealistic?
Almost any harem situation that could be deemed realistic will have some sort of power imbalance. That holds true for reverse harems as well. Online thots with a bunch of simps. Some top bitch cheerleader with a bunch of simps at school. Things like that.

It's just totally unrealistic that "normal" people will happily accept a situation where their partner is free to mess around. The realistic cases are things like swinging, sharing, open relationships, poly relationships, hot wifing, and adventurous lifestyles like that. The stereotypical harem that is used in these games and anime are just not conceivable without that power imbalance.

I mean, a throuple could work out in some realistic way, if they have a deep past history together. But the harems where you are just adding more and more girls and they are all happy and the whole thing is totally wholesome...? That's a nope.
 
Nov 9, 2022
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Almost any harem situation that could be deemed realistic will have some sort of power imbalance. That holds true for reverse harems as well. Online thots with a bunch of simps. Some top bitch cheerleader with a bunch of simps at school. Things like that.
Now you've got me thinking about Parasocial Relationships in some sort of Cyberpunk setting. Onlyfans, except in AR, and with one-to-many haptic feedback.

Of course, at that point, you're basically playing as a sex worker. :unsure:

Wait... What if you just played as a sex worker?
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,196
13,330
As you know, jufot, I'm in the minority on this. But what you may not know is that I prefer it to having no idea what's going on. For you see, I don't always play the whole game in one sitting. In other words, (breaks down into a complicated series of subtle character interactions and interpretive dance.)
I tend to agree: if it comes down to it, I'd rather endure a little blunt force exposition than have to constantly reread/replay the intro to keep up with the plot (or worse, have to sift through a maze of confusing implications and allusions). But there's definitely an art to dialog that delivers the needed plot points while still sounding like a conversation. As you know, it's yet another reason why I, overly verbose internet critic ename144, wouldn't want to actually write one of these games. :p


On an entirely different note, having read through the recent harem discussion, I might as well toss out my thoughts on the topic as well. I rarely like harem games; I'm a lot more interested in the intimacy (emotional and physical) than the kinks when I play these games, and I think it's hard to sustain a high level of intimacy as the harem expands. Sure, in theory the MC can have very strong feelings for all the harem members (and they for each other), but by definition the MC would never be able to stop everything and help any one LI because "everything" includes the rest of the harem. Prioritizing one LI in that way would short-circuit the whole thing.

Instead a harem becomes a balancing act of trying to give everyone their necessary support without starving anyone for attention. That's not bad or anything, but it's a very different feeling, at least for me. At a certain point, I usually feel like everyone would be better off breaking up into smaller, more manageable groups and making the most of it rather than trying to shoot the moon. At that point my interest wanes. The only polyamory path I've been able to genuinely buy into thus far is the Maya/Josy throuple in BaDIK. It think it's because the game did a good job making me care about each girl individually, then caring about them as a couple, then illustrating why trying to remain merely friends with them would be at least as unstable as trying to join the relationship. But that's the smallest group you can get and I think it would be exponentially difficult to scale it up farther.

Having said all that, I'm not sure my concerns have any bearing on whether you can have a "well written" harem game. I think the problem here isn't quality but subject matter; harems just aren't my cup of tea. I can analyze them the same way I would analyze, say, a horror game, but the appeal is going to be largely lost on me because I don't really enjoy the genre.

I think the key to a well written harem game is to figure out what you want out of the harem - steamy sex, complex relationship dynamics, gotta-catch-em-all achievement, what have you - and then structure the game to support and explore that aspect of the harem. If you want to focus on the achievement, be sure to make the process of adding each girl to the harem interesting and unique. If you want to focus on the intra-harem relationships, focus on how the needs of one LI bring others closer or force them apart. Now it's true that there are a number of different (and sometimes mutually exclusive) takes on the polyamorous group concept that tend to get lumped under the banner of 'harem,' but that's why I think you need to pick one of them and stick focus on it; trying to please everyone will invariably disappoint all.

To use your Bulletproof Harem template as an example, I think it would work well for a game focusing on intra-harem dynamics because it's all about trying to align the needs of the group. But it would be a poor starting point for a game that wanted to make assembling the harem feel like an achievement, because you'd effectively be reusing the same tools (giving advice and comfort) over and over again.

That's the way I see it, anyway. I understand your concern about how to make the scenario/LIs/MC/etc "believable" while in the harem, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Figure out why you want a harem then work to make the characters and situations fit that goal. That might limit your available options in some cases, but that's okay. After all, if you wanted to write an epic space opera, you wouldn't want the cast to have a "realistic" proportion of indecisive and psychologically-vulnerable bystanders. No, you're going to want a unrealistic helping of larger-than-life archetypes who can take bold stands against highly symbolic adversaries. Just so harem games will tend to involve open-minded people in unusually intimate circumstances because that's where harems would realistically form. You can certainly make exceptions, but they should be rare and handled on a case by case basis (rather than using the standard tropes of the genre).
 
5.00 star(s) 8 Votes