Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

Welcome back Raife!

Note that the MC is unattractive not because he's a sociopath misogynist, like the MCs in many popular games on this hellsite, but because his negative qualities are realistic and probably shared by many players. Hilarious, no?

Indeed. It's quite illuminating how so many reviewers and commenters hate Edward (and, in turn, the game) because they see uncomfortable parallels to their own life.

But I love it... it's like playing the loser protagonist in a Bukowski short story. Redemption is not the point.

I do believe redemption is possible for Edward and there will likely be a path in that direction, but I agree it's not the point and I do enjoy reading his petulant loser antics.

I'm a little more concerned about Elsa. She remains both the most interesting character -- by far -- and more of a deus ex machina than a human being. At this point, we need to have at least a few breadcrumbs about her real motivations, otherwise she takes on more and more surreal qualities (as Edward seems to appreciate). Sqwl needs to show more of who and what she is, beyond just a foil for Edward.

Elsa deliberately and persistently keeps Edward at arm's length. I think we'll find out why once her true intentions are revealed. Still, you have a point. The game could give us some background on Elsa to humanize her a bit, without involving Edward. A second POV would likely annoy self-inserters, but still...

 

[Raife]

In order to keep my playtime genuinely engaging (without going too porny or too boring), I just follow one rule.

Absolutely -- I agree 100%.

Eva's games, with their Byzantine, branching plot lines reward role playing discipline... that's especially true in ORS.

 

[Raife]

ArianeB did a short comic on "Why there are no female protagonist Dating Sim Games." It went something like this.

Jane says to Frank, "Hey Frank, do you want to have sex?"
Frank says, "What? Yes!"

Would have been a short game.

I enjoyed Sliver's disquisition on 'corruption' in games, and your responses -- particularly his take on shifting the overton window for male and female characters.

But I think the element missing from this discussion is 'shame' -- that is, a sense of shame and loss felt by the player, given the consequences suffered by characters due to the player's choices.

I don't mean 'shame' as in loosening sexual mores (which are likely to be quite fungible, anyway, among players of these games!) -- particularly because degrading female characters seems to be the point of may corruption games... part of the kink for male players.

Rather, I mean a sense of shame or remorse, on the part of the player, for what happens to other characters. For example, in _Nothing is Forever_...

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I grant you, imbuing corruption with both shame and gratification is extremely difficult, and demands a lot of the dev. They must build compelling enough LI characters so that the player cares enough to feel shame, when they hurt them.

But I do think a sense of shame, of loss, creates more meaningful corruption scenarios.

 

[yossa999]

Corporate Culture 0.5 has arrived at F95. Looking forward to your thoughts folks

In short, despite all the shortcomings mentioned in previous posts, the game still has a very good storyline and can beat some popular tv series with a similar plot.

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[Canto Forte]

Fight club runs cicles around this game in the very first thirty minutes alone.
You seem to all forget the fact Elsa has the Durden agenda for Edward, where Edward is Ed Norton in the movie.
There are no buts about it, no two sides of the story: Elsa plots to ruin the company MC is struggling to succeed in,
not to mention MC is looking to conquer the very heir of this company: Alice, doughter of the owner.

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All this blackmail and people swapping is all part of the Fight Club modus operandi also:
get everyone under Elsa and bring the company to the ground.
MC is the peon, his state of mind being psycho and in wild dissarray just like Ed Norton in Fight Club.
Happy wallowing in nonsensical babble about stuff you have been told,
in this game, point blank,
since a long time ago.

 

[Raife]

Fight club runs cicles around this game in the very first thirty minutes alone.
You seem to all forget the fact Elsa has the Durden agenda for Edward, where Edward is Ed Norton in the movie.
There is no buts about it, no two sides of the story: Elsa plots to ruin the company MC is struggling to succeed in,
not to mention MC is looking to conquer the very heir of this company: Alice, doughter of the owner.

All this blackmail and people swapping is all part of the Fight Club modus operandi also:
get everyone under Elsa and bring the company to the ground.
MC is the peon, his state of mind being psycho and in wild dissarray just like Ed Norton in Fight Club.
Happy wallowing in nonsensical babble about stuff you have been told,
in this game, point blank,
since a long time ago.

Maybe you're right, know _exactly_ where sqwl is going with his story, and are smarter than the rest of us. Or perhaps not.

Another suggestion: perhaps you are entirely right about the plot and the journey is still enjoyable for some of us.

My guess: you've taken a look at an incomplete story, connected the dots, made one or two half-right guesses, filled in the blanks with your preconceptions, et voila!

Anchoring bias... the stuff of geniuses (Isiah Berlin's hedgehogs) and internet trolls.

I could give you chapter and verse about why Elsa is not Durden, and how sqwl has very obviously and carefully indicated otherwise, but that doesn't strike me as a worthwhile enterprise. You've already anticipated how the plot will come out, after all. Congratulations.

 

[Canto Forte]

See ... just like Brad Pitt - the eye candy, the beef cake, he was the star
for being a demented Joker character all throughout the movie fight club
and litrerally setting up all needed to literally watch the world burn,
much more intensely and damaging to millions of people - job wise and livelyhood wise,
Elsa is the most adorned psycho in this game, where MC is just a delusional puppet.

There is truth in the works of Bond or pinocchio or rapunzel or snow white:
The hero whom we should correctly root for and redeem is the puppet, the action person,
not the puppet master - alas you all want the exact clone of fight club
and root for the copy cat Brad Pitt charcater: Elsa.
The good looking plot armored most dangerous vilain in the movie ... so enjoy your Elsa.

 

[Virgin Girl]

any long story games ?

 

[Raife]

The hero whom we should correctly root for and redeem is the puppet, the action person,
not the puppet master - alas you all want the exact clone of fight club
and root for the copy cat Brad Pitt charcater: Elsa.
The good looking plot armored most dangerous vilain in the movie ... so enjoy your Elsa.

Are we rooting for Elsa? You're certain about that, are you?

Literally 80% of our discussion today has been about Edward, our hopes (or otherwise for him), why he's dislikeable, what story arcs he might have, etc.

That said, I think you're partially right in that there's something wrong with Elsa... something broken about her persona. But I think we're interested in what makes her tic, we're not rooting for her per se.

 

[Canto Forte]

Yes, you are ... even describing tit for tat the exact Brad Pitt character traits from fight club in her:

Elsa. She remains the most interesting character

more of a deus ex machina than a human being

she takes on more and more surreal qualities

we rooting for Elsa

Enjoy your eye candy, no delusion there about why everyone likes to think there is something more about her,
even after this game revealed her whole motivations, persona, character ... or
actually, total lack of morals, lack of character and lack of human recognizable traits, from her own mouth.

 

[Raife]

Yes, you are ... even describing tit for tat the exact Brad Pitt character traits from fight club in her:

She seems to have Durden-esque qualities. But she's a real person, has friends (other than Edward), has weaknesses, is not purely Nietzschean, questions her own motivations, and behaves very strangely in ways that are independent of Edward.

So yes, you're right, she's just like Durden... except for all of those ways in which she is not. If you exclude all of the latter, you're spot on.

A grizzly might be a polar bear if you ignore the fact that its coat is brown.

 

[Canto Forte]

All those things are present in Durden also, in the depiction of the first half of the movie fight club
where we, the audience, have no idea Ed and Brad are the same phisical representation
of the same body human persona.
Everyone acts submissive to Brad but dismissive to Ed.

A grizzly

bear

They are both bears, Elsa and Durden,
they are plot armored, act totally independent to their respective Ed,
Ed norton along with us, the audience, ever get a whiff of Durden being a doppelganger
after some peons act outta character around Ed norton.

Durden and Elsa both have friends they fight with and leave,
literally everyone in fight club is the friend of Durden, Ed norton is just along for the ride.
Durden is a ladies man, partying with many hook ups all the time,
while Ed norton cannot even talk to someone to save his life.

Elsa talks freely about sucking off every male friend she has to not get fired and get outta jail.
She even admits to doing fight club shenanigans wiht the guys she meets in bars or clubs.
MC does Elsa all the favors with literally no upside, then just gives Elsa his algoritm and does her job for her.
MC then goes on to do the homework for Alice, again - to save her from getting expelled.

MC is this thankless hero you all seem to hate.
Welcome to the demeaning jobs of so many professions where you save the lives or livelyhood
of totally unworthy assholes that ruin your life.

has friends (other than Edward)

she's a real person

behaves very strangely in ways that are independent of Edward

 

[yossa999]

Fight club runs cicles around this game in the very first thirty minutes alone.
You seem to all forget the fact Elsa has the Durden agenda for Edward, where Edward is Ed Norton in the movie.
[...]

So, today it's Fight Club
But didn't Elsa said it directly already that it's Cinderella? Ed is Cinderella, Elsa is the Fairy Godmother, Emma is the evil step-mother who forces poor Ed into servitude, Matt and the other dude are step-sisters (Gracious God forbid from such relatives), Alice is the Prince, Ed's jacket which he gave to Alice is Cinderella's shoe, Brown is the King obviously, deal celebration is the royal ball, white Range Rover - Cinderella's golden carriage, which turns into Ed's pumpkin scooter at midnight.

 

[realjitter]

I'm not fully on board with praising the game high up into the stratosphere and making movie comparisons and whatnot just yet. Because, the way I see it, the game still hasn't let it's pants down fully yet, literally that is . Jufot, for example, says that, in his fantasie booking, Elsa won't be an LI for Edward. Well, that sounds nice in theory and I can sympathize with that idea, but.. I mean, what happened until now?. The game, so far, followed strictly it's corporate main storyline which came to fruition at the end of the last chapter. Now "main story part 2" will be initiated and, more importantly, the relationship game will finally start. Ok, so I just looked it up and apparently there are around 14040 AVN's advertised on this site (an insane number btw). So how many out of those do have female characters that the player can't engage sexually, 0,02%?, less?. Maybe some parental figure here and there?. What i'm trying to say is that, at the end of the day, it's an AVN . With that in mind Edward, of course, will get it on with Elsa, Alice, Emma, sexy secretary lady and whoever else there is. I somehow have a hard time believing that corporate culture will play out differently, that it will do something truly unique. Why should it? what signs are there?. It would be awesome if it does, but the statistic says otherwise. Therefore i'm hesitant about giving a real opinion about it as of now. But I guess that should/could change starting chapter 7, we'll see ... I'm just a little worried about "corporate power Edward" and what that could lead to. If the game remains to be as cynical, as it is right now, I could live with alot of possible scenarios, but then again... In my mind we don't know jackshit about the developers intentions/fantasies about the game and it's characters as of yet, at least I don't.... It can easiily swing both ways. It can remain interesting and unique in it's approach, but it could also turn into something weird and dull...

Anyways, my favourite scene was when Edward and Elsa were sitting in a car and Edward tries to learn something about Elsa's past and she then starts telling the Cinderella story, lol...

 

[jufot]

Ok, so I just looked it up and apparently there are around 14040 AVN's advertised on this site (an insane number btw). So how many out of those do have female characters that the player can't engage sexually, 0,02%?, less?. Maybe some parental figure here and there?. What i'm trying to say is that, at the end of the day, it's an AVN

The rest of your post notwithstanding, this is a bad yardstick to compare CC against. The vast majority of games on this site are cookie cutter girl collectors, with only cursory attention paid to plot and character development. CC stands out because it's almost entirely character driven and doesn't give in to porn tropes at any point. If you refuse to deceive Lucy, there isn't even a sex scene! Are there any other games on F95 like that, despite being in development for 3 years?

With that in mind Edward, of course, will get it on with Elsa, Alice, Emma, sexy secretary lady and whoever else there is. I somehow have a hard time believing that corporate culture will play out differently, that it will do something truly unique. Why should it? what signs are there?.

I'm 100% sure Edward will get Alice if he continues to follow Elsa's lead. I'm sad that Emma is an option (the script suggests it, but the game doesn't, yet). I could see the secretary playing out very much Lucy. But Elsa? I just don't see how it makes sense narratively. Perhaps sqwl will surprise us

 

[Raife]

They are both bears, Elsa and Durden,
they are plot armored, act totally independent to their respective Ed,
Ed norton along with us, the audience, ever get a whiff of Durden being a doppelganger
after some peons act outta character around Ed norton.

Durden and Elsa both have friends they fight with and leave,
literally everyone in fight club is the friend of Durden, Ed norton is just along for the ride.
Durden is a ladies man, partying with many hook ups all the time,
while Ed norton cannot even talk to someone to save his life.

That's my point, Canto... both characters have certain similarities and roles in pushing the plot forward, but they are not the same. You are interpreting every piece of evidence in the game to support your theory... and ignoring contradictory evidence. You might be right... but I doubt it. I'll put money on the fact that she's a real person, which makes things more interesting than the simple Fight Club remake framework you're anticipating.

As for 'our' supposed 'hatred' of Edward: that's total nonsense. You're projecting the awful Edward hatred that appears elsewhere on this website (notably the CC thread) on to the denizens of this thread. Edward is not an attractive person and has crappy qualities... but I've repeatedly said that I like playing him and find him interesting. His lousy qualities are, in fact, realistic -- because many of us have them or used to have them. That makes him a fun MC to play.

 

[Raife]

I'm 100% sure Edward will get Alice if he continues to follow Elsa's lead. I'm sad that Emma is an option (the script suggests it, but the game doesn't, yet). I could see the secretary playing out very much Lucy. But Elsa? I just don't see how it makes sense narratively. Perhaps sqwl will surprise us

That's my guess as well. But what happens if Edward starts to rebel... or when he takes the qualities that Elsa has imprinted on him and turns them on Elsa and her life? That could be interesting, and I'd love to see it.

Of course, if Canto is right, none of that happens!

 

[jufot]

But what happens if Edward starts to rebel... or when he takes the qualities that Elsa has imprinted on him and turns them on Elsa and her life? That could be interesting, and I'd love to see it.

Right. As long as he's under her thumb, he has nothing to offer Elsa in romantic terms. But if he rebels in just the right way, gaining independence without being obnoxious about it, he might become a man Elsa respects and could potentially be interested in. I still don't feel it, but I acknowledge the possibility

 

[Canto Forte]

Spoiler: Distracting hopes for games to blossom into larger than life success stories for all of us

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Great way to deflect the fact that many still praise Elsa while belittling the MC.
The paralel to wanted or fight club where the attractive actors were the vialins
and the dull, unattractive, self deprecating, talking to themselves, powerless
and quite definitively driven into maddness by the overpowered plot armored supernatural vialins,
were the protagonists that made our perspective down and somewhat disconcerting,
it holds this game afloat, igniting the immaginations of gamers around the world.

Because those movies were great cult phenoms, literally fight club where looks to make panties drop
literally made Brad Pitt into the beef cake eye candy to have in a movie,
while angie and morgan stole the show to twist the plot in wanted.

That's my guess as well. But what happens if Edward starts to rebel... or when he takes the qualities that Elsa has imprinted on him and turns them on Elsa and her life? That could be interesting, and I'd love to see it.

Of course, if Canto is right, none of that happens!

Right. As long as he's under her thumb, he has nothing to offer Elsa in romantic terms. But if he rebels in just the right way, gaining independence without being obnoxious about it, he might become a man Elsa respects and could potentially be interested in. I still don't feel it, but I acknowledge the possibility

Here is Hope, always, that plot or fates or dev manage to turn this all around for MC,
as Ed norton killed Durden literally to escape and prof exavier killed morgan to break the assassin creed.

 

[jufot]

Canto Forte can you please scale those images wayyy down? They are distractingly large and honestly, inappropriate for this thread. Use your words. If you want to post porn, go to literally any other thread here.