Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

Oh, yeah. One of the earlier, whiny comments on the Hillside thread was asking "when can we go balls deep into Emma?" and it had really pissed me off. I mean... how dense must you be if that's your first thought after playing that game? Seriously...

Absolutely. I'm so impressed with Blue, both for how well he has resisted the constant carping and demands to pornify his well-structured, compelling plot, and his cheeky subversion of porn tropes. In the most recent episode, there's a great scene where the MC:

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Heh.

 

[Jaike]

This immediately reminded me of Summer Scent, where the MC can be anything from a kind, considerate gentleman to psychopathic rapist, all within the timespan of a few days.

Now that's just realism in adult games. I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't have much of a history with dating or hooking up with young horny men who want to act tough?

But yes you're right, blank-slate male MCs who rapidly switch between chivalry and sociopathy are a weird trope but they are also an oddly common cliché. I think it is similar to the trope of "the man with a thousand faces".

 

[jufot]

Now that's just realism in adult games. I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't have much of a history with dating or hooking up with young horny men who want to act tough?

Haha, back in The Before Times, I was a young horny dude who acted tough to impress girls (my high school girlfriend probably has some stories to tell). I'd like to think my worst was still better than SS' MC

I think it is similar to the trope of "the man with a thousand faces".

It's exactly that, yeah.

 

[Raife]

I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't have much of a history with dating or hooking up with young horny men who want to act tough?

That horny young man was me from roughly 16-20, Jaike (two decades ago)... and I am deeply, deeply embarrassed and slightly ashamed that I was ever that guy. My only defense is that I was very young and extremely callow/sophomoric, and I knew less than zero about women at the time. Ugh.

But... even the young, dumb me wasn't some psycho who would force himself on someone... like some of these awful blank slate porny MCs. I don't find those 'man with a thousand faces' (or no face) MCs credible or interesting...

...and, moreover, I don't think a good story first game can have a blank slate MC like that.

 

[Raife]

Haha, back in The Before Times, I was a young horny dude who acted tough to impress girls (my high school girlfriend probably has some stories to tell). I'd like to think my worst was still better than SS' MC


It's exactly that, yeah.

In which we give the same answer to the same question almost simultaneously, yet again. Maybe _you_ are my doppelganger, not the other way around?

 

[jufot]

That horny young man was me from roughly 16-20, Jaike (two decades ago)

Maybe _you_ are my doppelganger, not the other way around?

Well, we are definitely in the same age range (30 to 40?) One of us must be slightly younger

 

[Raife]

Well, we are definitely in the same age range (30 to 40?) One of us must be slightly younger

Darn whippersnappers...

 

[jufot]

Mythos: Book One is another one, it's a mix of fantasy/noir(ish) crime story and comedy.

I've finally managed to play this one, and it's pretty good! There is an interesting story revolving around a murder mystery. It's yet another urban fantasy game, and has decent worldbuilding (though not to the extent of Reluctant Archon or Sorcerer). There is frequent fourth wall breaking with memes and real-world references, which can be irritating. Occasionally, though, it can be really funny

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[Mister_M]

I've finally managed to play this one, and it's pretty good! There is an interesting story revolving around a murder mystery. It's yet another urban fantasy game, and has decent worldbuilding (though not to the extent of Reluctant Archon or Sorcerer). There is frequent fourth wall breaking with memes and real-world references, which can be irritating. Occasionally, though, it can be really funny

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Yeah, it's a funny game, glad that you liked it. The dev goes slightly overboard with memes and comedy imo too, but in general I found the story interesting and fun, and I don't like fantasy in contemporary times AVNs. At least the ones I've played.

The Roommate is another one you may like, I've mentioned this game in one of my earlier posts, but after editing it, so you may have not noticed. Yesterday I've played Going Rouge which tries to go for a good story too (very Infernal Affairs-like), I think it's worth trying, though you definitely played all the games with best stories on this forum I suppose.

 

[jufot]

The Roommate is another one you may like

It's on my TODO list

Yesterday I've played Going Rouge which tries to go for a good story too (very Infernal Affairs-like)

Hmm, now I'm intrigued because I quite like Infernal Affairs

 

[Raife]

So.... I _finally_ played a bit of _Sorcerer_ last night, and found it a very mixed bag.

I loved the world-building and attention to detail in the plot, as well as the mixture of ages and body types among the LIs. That latter point was great.

But... the sex is really, really bad: mechanical and not remotely erotic. The MC treats sex like shaking hands... which allows him to have a ton of partners, plausibly, without any emotional commitment. While the MC's attitude towards sex makes sense in terms of his personality, the fact that _all_ the LIs have a similar attitude is not believable.

I'm looking forward to continuing to play through the story, which I'm enjoying... but I would not peg this as one of my top games... not even close.

I guess what _Sorcerer_ has taught me is that an interesting, well-plotted story is not enough for me -- in this genre, I also want eroticism, tension, and emotion invested in the sexual side. That's a pretty unusual combination, which most devs don't cater to.

 

[jufot]

But... the sex is really, really bad: mechanical and not remotely erotic. The MC treats sex like shaking hands... which allows him to have a ton of partners, plausibly, without any emotional commitment. While the MC's attitude towards sex makes sense in terms of his personality, the fact that _all_ the LIs have a similar attitude is not believable.

That's the downside of adding a harem to any story - it takes a massive dump right in the middle of it. There is no way to write a grounded, realistic harem story, so the mere presence of it is a concession that you're willing to undermine the characters and the narrative for porn. Don't get me wrong, Sorcerer does harem far better than pretty much any other game, but it's still not a panacea.

For that reason, I'm happy that the sex in Sorcerer (and Terminus Reach: Sentinel) are mechanical and lack eroticism - it allows me to just fast-forward through those scenes and get back to the story

I guess what _Sorcerer_ has taught me is that an interesting, well-plotted story is not enough for me -- in this genre, I also want eroticism, tension, and emotion invested in the sexual side.

I think that's where we differ. I don't really need anything on the sexual side. Sorcerer could get rid of all sex scenes and my enjoyment of it wouldn't be diminished at all.

 

[Jaike]

That's the downside of adding a harem to any story - it takes a massive dump right in the middle of it. There is no way to write a grounded, realistic harem story, so the mere presence of it is a concession that you're willing to undermine the characters and the narrative for porn. Don't get me wrong, Sorcerer does harem far better than pretty much any other game, but it's still not a panacea.

Long post, but there seem to be a lot of modern Western cultural assumptions in this perspective.

I don't think that the arguably mechanical presentation of sex in Sorcerer has anything to do with the game being a harem game. It's probably that there is only a little dialogue and no narration in the sex scenes, so you only look at an animation of two not very emotional people engaged in copulation. You can probably pursue only one LI, or an LI and a paramour if you want to, so it is possible try whether the sex looks better then. But I doubt it will.

I agree that a harem places constraints on the personalities of whoever is willing to be a part of that. It also limits the scope for romance, because "one true love" has no place in a harem. And harem games tend to develop a certain tedium if there are a very large number of people in a harem. I don't think Sorcerer is there (yet?), but I'm not really sure what exactly causes it.

Grounded, realistic harem stories obviously are possible, because harems and similar polygamic arrangements were a historical fact and polygamy is still a reality in many places. The issue is that harems conflict with the white Western modern setting of such games, but also with the level of female emancipation seen in most fantasy and scifi games, well except for those ones that are built around extreme degradation but those don't often have harem-building male MCs.

A real-world grounded harem game like that would run into issues. A male MC who isn't white seems to be less popular, so that may hit the funding. Polygamy is expensive, so any MC would have to very rich, if the game is set in the distant past the MC would have to be a noble or a kind. If the harem is set in a royal or noble court, a realistic plot would involve drama and intrige that would turn players off. Think of rivalry to the point of LIs murdering each other or an LI murdering the MC. You can guess what kind of outcry that would raise. A historical harem setting would also require very authoritarian patriarchal attitudes that much of the sex is really noncon. That would repel many players too. Romance as we know it didn't exist so you can't develop much of that. And it is more difficult to write a realistic story about the more distant past, Hollywood fucking sucks at it most of the time, Japanese professional porn devs fucking suck at it nearly all of the time, so I doubt many Western amateur porn or adult devs can deliver a good job. But as a history nerdette I am seriously picky about that.

 

[Nyravrod]

If the harem is set in a royal or noble court, a realistic plot would involve drama and intrige that would turn players off. Think of rivalry to the point of LIs murdering each other or an LI murdering the MC.

That actually sounds like something that would be a lot of fun to explore in a VN. Sub plots and rivaleries and a dynamic system to track this would make it very difficult to write and implement but it sounds amazing.

There is actually one sci fi game I played that has tried something along those lines (although a lot more simplistic). It's Calisto
The relationship system is made in a way that any action with specific LIs will increase or decrease the relationship with other LIs so taking a certain LI to bed with you will make other jealous, triggering jealousy scenes (between LIs) when the level of a LI get's too low. Or on the opposite certain LIs might respond positively to you showing interest to specific other LIs (creating sort of clans or groups that relate to one another). Unfortunately the extend of the consequences ends with simple jealousy scenes and harmless pranks (I guess due to the fear of backlash and to avoid the complexity of losing LIs mid story). I would have loved to see that system tried in a more drastic maner.

 

[jufot]

there seem to be a lot of modern Western cultural assumptions in this perspective.

Well, maybe. I've lived in multiple countries. A number of them in the West (NL a while back, UK now), but most of my life has been in the Middle East. That still doesn't make me "appreciate" harems

I don't think that the arguably mechanical presentation of sex in Sorcerer has anything to do with the game being a harem game.

No, it doesn't, but that wasn't my point. I meant that the wooden nature of sex in Sorcerer made it easier for me to skip it because the sexual parts detract from the realism of the story.

Grounded, realistic harem stories obviously are possible, because harems and similar polygamic arrangements were a historical fact and polygamy is still a reality in many places.

The trouble here is that Sorcerer tries to have its cake and eat it too. It takes place in the modern world, in an arguably Western country, where women don't appreciate being a man's property. Further, the MC is faaaar from what a historical harem owner would be. He's kind, a believer in free will, and is not in a position of power over his concubines. I'd be surprised if there was a single historical example fitting that definition.

The issue is that harems conflict with the white Western modern setting of such games, but also with the level of female emancipation seen in most fantasy and scifi games, well except for those ones that are built around extreme degradation but those don't often have harem-building male MCs.

Yes. If anything, a realistic harem should pretty much by definition be degrading. Ironically, this makes rape-simulator games like Desert Stalker great examples of realistic harem VNs

If the harem is set in a royal or noble court, a realistic plot would involve drama and intrige that would turn players off. Think of rivalry to the point of LIs murdering each other or an LI murdering the MC. You can guess what kind of outcry that would raise.

Haha, that's pretty much what I said in my To Be A King review

A real-world grounded harem game like that would run into issues. [... lots of good points ...] But as a history nerdette I am seriously picky about that.

I agree with all of that. But that's also why harem is a poor fit for Sorcerer and undermines the story.

 

[Nyravrod]

At the recommendation of Jufot I'll share a few comics here too. There is less of a focus on comics on this site but there are still a few gems to find in the comics section for those who like a good story.

The first one I would recommend is called Sunstone. The first arc is completed (volumes 1-5) and it is a lesbian rommance BDSM story. It is very well written and tells the tale of 2 women looking online to find someone to explore their kinks with and how that purely sexual relationship evolves into more. The story is well written, the characters have depth and the art is absolutely gorgeous.
I guess my bias to this series is clear when I use it as my profile picture

The second one I would recommend is called Alfie It is still ongoing and is definitely a more sexual story. It is a story of a youg Halfling living in a small judgemental village discovering her sexuality. Less romance more sexual awakening but still great characters and a good story building up especially later in the comic.

If this is interesting to people I will see if I can find some others in my archives.

 

[DontCareWhatYouCallMe]

I assume you tend to name MCs after yourself? It's funny, I never feel like doing that. I usually go for James, which isn't my real name. No idea why, either. I just picked that once a long time ago and I stuck with it. Hmm...

Had to respond, never thought I'd find someone that does the same. I usually go for Alex, and just as you that isn't my name either (not even close).

 

[Dragon59]

Catching up, sorry. Work (and family) has taken up a lot of my time, lately.

That is an important point, Dragon... the best and most interesting MCs all evolve and develop as a game unfolds.

A well-written MC must have a distinct personality to begin with -- and a world view -- but it should be able to shift somewhat with the player's choices. Radical shifts aren't credible... a compelling MC shouldn't be allowed choices fundamentally inauthentic to their core personalities -- i.e. a saintly character shouldn't suddenly go on a murderous rampage.

Yes, one would have to come ups with a major reason for such a break. Head trauma or drug induced. A psychotic break due to extreme PTSD would work, but would be difficult to portray effectively.

But subtle shifts over time in an MC's outlook, allowing a fairly despicable character to improve or a fallen character to redeem themselves, can be awesome. One of the reasons I enjoy _Corporate Culture_ so much is that the MC starts out as quite despicable (not in a sex creep way... he's a self-sabotaging loser) but is showing signs of improvement under the influence of another character.

The true tabula rasa MC, on the other hand, is a classic porn game trope... it's fine for quick fap-oriented games, but absolutely is not acceptable in a game that aspires to a compelling narrative.

My go-to on this concept is Max (BB/Glamour). He starts out as a horny manipulating bastard and he seems to be destined to stay that way. Nate, from SLF, is obviously patterned on Max, but he seems to actually consider those in his life.

I've pretty much given up on Glamour, and SLF is way down on my priority list right now (along with Milky Touch and Milfy City, and a host of others).

It is so gallingly common, in these forums, to see players complain to devs that 'my MC should be able to do whatever I want' -- which really means that the player wants to be able to blow up the story that the dev is trying to create. Worse, devs sometimes give in to these requests, which almost always ruins their game.

I now forget which game thread it was in, but when the topic of a Love Interests history of rape came up, the player begged the developer to portray it for him. I admit I was a little shocked (considering it is one of our story driven works), but unfortunately, there are a (hopefully small) number of players who seek these depictions.

Yup... the SS MC is such a blank slate that I find playing him boring... there's no way I'm going to make it through SS's byzantine branches.

I still follow the thread, but I haven't had the time or inclination to return to that in a while.

One of your more amusing triggers, jufot, is when members start bitching about how 'I want my MC to rape that LI,' or 'I want that LI to suddenly start conforming to my preferred idea of traditional female gender roles around the MC.' Demands like that, directed at one of your favourite games, are guaranteed to set you off.

I get in a lot of "discussions" about LI agency. Especially about being able to be intimate with other LIs. I've earned a lot of facepalms that way!

Do these complaints set you off mainly because (1) they're generally boorish/stupid/gross/offensive, or because (2) the dev might actually listen and ruin one of your favourite games? I'm guessing it's primarily 1 with a dash of 2.

I'd say that's a good assessment.

Absolutely. I'm so impressed with Blue, both for how well he has resisted the constant carping and demands to pornify his well-structured, compelling plot, and his cheeky subversion of porn tropes. In the most recent episode, there's a great scene where the MC:

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Heh.

Someone who acts like a mensch instead of Ayn Rand fantasy "hero?" Amazing!

Haha, back in The Before Times, I was a young horny dude who acted tough to impress girls (my high school girlfriend probably has some stories to tell). I'd like to think my worst was still better than SS' MC


It's exactly that, yeah.

That horny young man was me from roughly 16-20, Jaike (two decades ago)... and I am deeply, deeply embarrassed and slightly ashamed that I was ever that guy. My only defense is that I was very young and extremely callow/sophomoric, and I knew less than zero about women at the time. Ugh.

But... even the young, dumb me wasn't some psycho who would force himself on someone... like some of these awful blank slate porny MCs. I don't find those 'man with a thousand faces' (or no face) MCs credible or interesting...

...and, moreover, I don't think a good story first game can have a blank slate MC like that.

I identified as a feminist at 13 and was a virgin until 22, possibly in large part because I would not assume friendliness was flirting. The idea of forcing myself on another always seemed pretty creepy.

Well, maybe. I've lived in multiple countries. A number of them in the West (NL a while back, UK now), but most of my life has been in the Middle East. One of those countries historically has had one of the largest harems that ever existed. That still doesn't make me "appreciate" harems

Most of these naïve fanboys don't want to hear about how things were/are in real harems. They will insist (perhaps because of homophobia) that the women in harems never got intimate with each other.

The trouble here is that Sorcerer tries to have its cake and eat it too. It takes place in the modern world, in an arguably Western country, where women don't appreciate being a man's property. Further, the MC is faaaar from what a historical harem owner would be. He's kind, a believer in free will, and is not in a position of power over his concubines. I'd be surprised if there was a single historical example fitting that definition.

I know a few people who are in a Master/slave arrangement (one guy I know has 2 that live with him and at least one other who is still becoming established), but people truly embracing that lifestyle are very rare. Most others in M/s relationships are much more casual about it, not 24/7.

As far as modern examples, that's why I'm going with a polyamorous network rather than a harem in my game.

Yes. If anything, a realistic harem should pretty much by definition be degrading. Ironically, this makes rape-simulator games like Desert Stalker great examples of realistic harem VNs

There was one about someone becoming the absolute controller of a city after a pandemic or some such--too much for me.

Haha, that's pretty much what I said in my To Be A King review

I've been meaning to look into that one, mainly because I've been going through the tutorials that the developer (IT Roy) has been making.

 

[jufot]

possibly in large part because I would not assume friendliness was flirting

Teenagers are naturally stupid about these things (I know I was) but in the adult world (at least for neurotypicals) I think it's easy to differentiate between friendliness and flirting. In my experience, if someone is genuinely interested in you, they'll let you know and won't be all that subtle about it. I also think it's harmless to gently gauge interest with some playful flirting, as long as you are ready to stop immediately if you're rebuffed. The creeps are always the ones who can't take a hint and make things unsafe for women

I know a few people who are in a Master/slave arrangement (one guy I know has 2 that live with him and at least one other who is still becoming established), but people truly embracing that lifestyle are very rare. Most others in M/s relationships are much more casual about it, not 24/7.

That sounds... fascinating, really. I assume these are fully consenting Western-values adults? If so, I wish I could interview them, especially the "slaves". How different their minds must be...

 

[Raife]

I think that's where we differ. I don't really need anything on the sexual side. Sorcerer could get rid of all sex scenes and my enjoyment of it wouldn't be diminished at all.

My phrasing was a bit infelicitous: it's not that I expect sex as such in this genre of game. Perhaps a better way of phrasing it is that I want to see tension (preferably eroticism) involving the MC's relationship with the LI(s) and not simply in the broader plot arc.

After all, I love _Hillside_ and there is exactly zero sex so far between the main LI and the MC... the most we get so far is a kiss on the cheek.

On the other hand, in _Sorcerer_ there's plenty of sex but zero eroticism, which I consider a major shortcoming _despite_ its otherwise intriguing plot and world building.