Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

There are three principles that I apply to financially backing devs:

1. I support the dev and their creative process, not a particular game.
2. My only exhortation to devs is to pursue their vision.
3. I _never_ expect that a dev should adhere to a particular release schedule.

There is a core group of maybe a dozen devs, including Tlaero and Mortze, that I've supported for many years (certainly before they were Tlaero and Mortze... back in the days of Phreaky). And a newer group, with more turnover, that I've supported for only few years. Most appear on jufot's list.

Arisushi, you're absolutely right that the people who complain the loudest about so-called 'milking' are players, typically on this august site, who don't actually provide any financial support to devs. I suppose that if you are unemployed and live alone in the basement of Mom's house, high demand for wank material and limited supply of cash can lead to frustration. It's tragic.

I feel strongly that devs with compelling creative visions (like you) deserve support. Not because I'm buying some sort of subscription service, but because I'm interested in the way you tell stories. (I can't speak for jufot, but I am nearly certain that he feels the same way.)

 

[Raife]

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

That's because you're dedicated to your work, noping. And... as you say, your neurotic desire to work like crazy on your game is quite common among devs.

Which makes me all the more furious at the fulminating morass of mouth-breathing tossers on this wondrous hellsite who accuse you and other devs of 'milking.'

My advice to such worthies is: 1) Get a job; 2) Move out of Mom's basement; 3) Discover that it is hard to convince people to give you their money for performing a service, creative or otherwise. [Rant over!!]

 

[jufot]

I can't speak for jufot, but I am nearly certain that he feels the same way.

Indeed. I support quite a few devs on Patreon and I'm sure we have significant overlap as our motivations are largely identical.

 

[bacienvu88]

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I mean yes, there's absolutely a handful of devs who milk the shit out of stuff, and I won't even bother to name them at this point because we all know who they are.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

Thinking about this a bit more I think that that we use the word "milking" is itself a problem. When we say that a dev is "milking" we conveniently get to complain about development time and bad faith actors without really saying what we actually mean. To me, development time is never a problem. The dev already has plenty incentives to work as much as possible on the game.

What is a problem however is when a dev intentionally or unintentionally deceives their patreons by repeatedly promising updates and content that they don't deliver or other bad faith behaviour. This incentivizes prospective patreons to spend money on the project under false pretenses which not only harms those who pays to these projects; it also harms the development community in general by decreasing trust in devs. But calling this deception "milking" both trivialises the actual problem while vilifying good devs who just have long and irregular development cycles because the meaning of the word mixes the deception with long development times making it easy to apply to all devs regardless if they are acting in good faith or not.

 

[Tlaero]

Since I tend to release full games rather than episodes, I don't personally get accused of "milking" very much. But I've had to stop reading certain threads for other devs because the complainers were raising my blood pressure.

I'm pretty sure that no Patron has ever complained about milking. A Patron would just stop paying. The vast, vast, vast majority of complainers have never done a single thing to support the dev, and now they're actively trying to hurt the dev through convincing their Patrons to leave.

Fortunately most Patrons are smart enough to make their own decisions.

Tlaero

 

[Arisushi]

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I've been burnt and betrayed by bad luck (and some incompatible partners) far too many times to push myself any more than the absolute necessary amount.

To make up for it, I'm always transparent as fuck about almost every crucial step of the development plans, my thought process behind it, and any failures/missteps during production.

So, (since I know I'm doing the best I can and that I have been very transparent about my plans) I never feel bad about my production speed.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

I'm sorry that you (and others) feel that way.

All I can say is, I've been there in the past, so I understand where you're coming from. But still, try to ignore the "overwork demon" whispering its nonsense in your ears.

 

[Éama]

I'm pretty sure that no Patron has ever complained about milking. A Patron would just stop paying. The vast, vast, vast majority of complainers have never done a single thing to support the dev, and now they're actively trying to hurt the dev through convincing their Patrons to leave.

You have to be a bit careful with statements like this because it stems from an echo chamber we have in this thread and the wider community around it. The thing is that you and many other devs in this thread are reputable enough so that this doesn't become a theme. I have/had supported several devs where patrons have become very cynical, scornful and hostile because a developer missed several deadlines, was known to have extremely slow development speed or didn't meet the expectations of the audience. I think your statement means that you have acquired followers and supporters who are patient and supportive rather than pressuring and abusive, which is nice to see. But it's not the same experience for every dev.

 

[Tlaero]

You have to be a bit careful with statements like this because it stems from an echo chamber we have in this thread and the wider community around it. The thing is that you and many other devs in this thread are reputable enough so that this doesn't become a theme. I have/had supported several devs where patrons have become very cynical, scornful and hostile because a developer missed several deadlines, was known to have extremely slow development speed or didn't meet the expectations of the audience. I think your statement means that you have acquired followers and supporters who are patient and supportive rather than pressuring and abusive, which is nice to see. But it's not the same experience for every dev.

What I'm trying to say is that, if a Patron doesn't like a dev's progress, they have a far more effective way to make their dissatisfaction known than crying, "Milker" on an F95 thread.

They stop paying.

People crying "MILK!" do nothing to improve any situation. But Patrons have some actual influence (maybe not a lot, but some). And, in my experience, there's not a lot of overlap between Patrons and people who call devs Milkers. Life's too short to waste trying to convince a dev's fans that they're being cheated. People who support bad devs should just stop doing so and move on.

Tlaero

 

[Sidartha_6]

What I'm trying to say is that, if a Patron doesn't like a dev's progress, they have a far more effective way to make their dissatisfaction known than crying, "Milker" on an F95 thread.

They stop paying.

People crying "MILK!" do nothing to improve any situation. But Patrons have some actual influence (maybe not a lot, but some). And, in my experience, there's not a lot of overlap between Patrons and people who call devs Milkers. Life's too short to waste trying to convince a dev's fans that they're being cheated. People who support bad devs should just stop doing so and move on.

Tlaero

That's true but it's not always i stop (or lower) paying because there is something wrong with the game or the producer. Some times i have to choose where the money flow goes. It can be a new promising game or less flow to my own income...

 

[jacksparrow]

[...]
People crying "MILK!" do nothing to improve any situation. But Patrons have some actual influence (maybe not a lot, but some). And, in my experience, there's not a lot of overlap between Patrons and people who call devs Milkers [...]

True that ... and I would also like to add that constantly crying "milker" is a way of auto-convincing and auto-justifing that you are very right not supporting anything but instead play for free

 

[Tlaero]

That's true but it's not always i stop (or lower) paying because there is something wrong with the game or the producer. Some times i have to choose where the money flow goes. It can be a new promising game or less flow to my own income...

Yeah. I assume that if a Patron is decreasing payment because of something I did, or didn't do, they'll tell me in a DM. Most of the time it's because they've paid as much as they're comfortable paying. That's cool. Every bit of patronage is a gift. One that I don't take lightly.

Tlaero

 

[camube]

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

yeah people that pay for patreons wouldn't really care about milking, if they do, they just won't pay in the first place, or stop paying

as much as i like to play Summer Heat, i'm not gonna pay for it given how long the development process is and how atrocious the pacing is (the worst part).
on the other side, i don't care if Arson Betrayal or Seeking Closure takes their time to release per update, i don't even check patreon that much
they can take their time i don't really care

yeah those who say "milking" probably doesn't pay
though i can see ex-payers is probably comment like that too

there is 1 dev i'm still subscribed on patreon that has very few update posts combined with extremely spotty release time that gets me a bit annoyed.
How hard is it to post patron updates if your game release takes along time and you have little credibility on release sustainability (I'm comparing them to Hopes Gaming who also don't post on patreon and have spotty release update but very high credibility on release sustainability)

With that particular dev, i just decrease my tier to the lowest tier.

In that situation, i can see ex-payers probably comment on "milking' in this situation. Though for the record, this dev in particular doesn't milk, they have few patrons as it is, there's nothing to "milk"

but yeah, any current patrons on average probably likely doesn't care if devs "milk" them, they don't think their payment is "milking" in the first place

 

[camube]

My biggest disappointment with episode 1 was the way the game treated Lily's injury as a convenient plot device so I get why you might have bailed out when you did. You luckily managed to miss what to me was my least favorite part of the game: Jake and Cooper yukking it up in a bar as if nothing tragic had just happened (because everyone deals with grief in their own way, of course) only for Natalya to show up to offer a quickie (...because everyone deals with grief in their own way, naturally). Before Lily got hurt, I was actually really enjoying the dynamic of Jake clumsily managing his relationships with his ex-wife, current girlfriend/FWB, and his daughter. I wish there were more slice of life VNs that covered these kind of very real world scenarios. I think I would've preferred if the drama had been dialed down and Jake's racing had instead been more of a selfish, dangerous thing he chose to do to ward off ennui and try to hold on to his youth rather than a selfless thing he must do to try to save Lily's life.

Yeah this is the game i want to play instead of the game we get.

i don't think i'll patron this game. it's good enough to play the continuation, but not good enough for me to want to pay money so the dev continue it's development. it wouldn't affect me one way or the other if the dev drop it tomorrow.

I have to say though, Veronica is well-written, and the dynamic between Jake and Allison is very well-written. At least in my route where Jake and Allison is bickering but both trying to move forward.

As much as i also like Allison as a love interest, Jake and Allison is too toxic for each other and if this is not a game (of which we have control over the MC), they are better apart. And that's where Veronica becomes a viable alternative.

I don't really get Natalya's storyline to be honest. It's just too out there. It's not that believable to me compared to Allison and Victoria's settings. And that Asian student too. I really can't remember her name. That's how unimpressive she was.

I gotta say, I'm still surprised how quick the $50 tier leak. $25 sure, it leaks all the time, $50 tier though, damn!

 

[Dragon59]

Jake is an overall douchebag. He's an asshole, a bad husband, an even worse teacher, and a barely passable father. Despite all his bravado about doing "whatever it takes" for Lily, he still finds all the time in the world to fornicate with his students and basically fuck anything that isn't bolted to the ground. As a brilliant actress once said, "[Jake], that trollop, he'd shag an open wound." I really despise him, and being forced to play as him really saps the joy out of my experience.

So, you're saying he's not a fan of the "I'm stuck" fetish?

 

[boobsrcool]

Wow I Think I'm alone in thinking Jasmine was the best girl

 

[jufot]

Short Sad Stories chapter 6 is out on

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! Chapter 5 is also out for free

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[EndlessNights]

Wow I Think I'm alone in thinking Jasmine was the best girl

I'm sure you're not alone. I don't really keep up with the game thread, but I think she's quite popular there.

I've tended to find her annoying on the routes I've played because there's no way to set any boundaries between her and Jake. The kiss is forced, you can't object to her disrespect of Veronica, and there's definitely no stopping the constant flashing (what is this place, Mardi Gras University?). She does have more of a personality than the other students as well as a personal connection to and enthusiasm for racing so that's at least something, but it wasn't really enough to make me feel drawn to her.

A relationship with Jasmine could also potentially go really, really badly. If it or another of Jake's student dalliances becomes public knowledge, he could lose his job and any project funding he manages to line up. That's quite a risk to take on considering Lily's life is on the line. There are actually a number of other potentially catastrophic consequences Jake could face due to his actions if the dev were to pull an Acting Lessons. For instance, if Natalya is a spy she could steal Jake's project out from under him. Or he could be killed or injured in a street race or perhaps just get arrested for his participation in one. Getting involved with Dr. Mahamaya could compromise Lily's care. Maggie's stepfather is probably powerful enough to ruin Jake's life in a number of ways. I think we all assume that the dev probably won't end up going there, but there are definitely a lot of risky choices Jake can make in the game that could theoretically catch up with him at some point.

If I had to to play a third route, I'd probably play Maggie's. She's certainly a good person and helping her feels satisfying even though it seems very doubtful Jake would/should have the emotional bandwidth needed to play knight in shining armor and immerse himself in someone else's problems while Lily is lying in a hospital bed in a coma. Unfortunately, the game treats Lily like an afterthought much of the time even though her injury is the main driver of the plot.

I wonder if Maggie's mom and/or the PT will end up being actual LIs.

 

[camube]

Natalya being a spy would make the game better in retrospect

 

[Raife]

Natalya being a spy would make the game better in retrospect

I'm pretty sure she is -- there are more than enough breadcrumbs if you play her route... and her behaviour is otherwise inexplicable, even in the game's universe.

My ideal _Race for Life_ LI game endings would look something like this:

Veronica: Frustrated Jake [Jake's brain: 'the sex is so great and she validates my every move... so why do I cheat on her?']
Jasmine: Homeless, unemployed Jake ['who would have thought that orgies with my own students would be frowned upon?']
Natalya: Dead Jake ['she killed me for my battery tech, mid orgasm, with one of her stilettos. Right in the scrotum. I went out with a pop-pop-bang. But it was still almost worth it.']
Maggie: Castrati Jake ['Mr. Big, mom's evil boyfriend, had his goons bisect little Jake. I can now hit a high 'C' in the church choir.']
Allison 1: Suicidal Jake ['I realized what a horrible person I'd been and killed myself, right after Allison stopped accepting my help with Lily.']

Allison 2: Half-decent Jake ['She made me realize that I'd been a terrible person, and that I needed to acknowledge that and try a different path. I put my head down at work and finished the battery. Gave up illegal street racing after I hit a big payday... and nearly killed a little girl. And was astonished that Allison and Lily gave me another chance. I see my ex-and-future wife, and myself, very differently, now. She's beautiful and determined, and I don't deserve her... but nobody with a great partner truly does.']

It will never happen, but a man can dream!

 

[Raife]

View attachment 2900455

I'm a Linklater fan, too. But I see you and Arisushi as _Before Sunrise_ types, while I'm more _School of Rock_ or perhaps _Dazed and Confused_ on a good day.