Recommending Story-first games

[raynarnab]

Ironically, my enjoyment of NTR almost always has zero ties with the mc.

I enjoy NTR as a secret relationship between the fmc (who is opening up to / sinking into a taboo experience), and the antagonist (who is a dominant figure who "awakens" their sexual desires)

Primarily because most NTR often end up showing the fmc liking the debauchery they're pushed into. (And since this is not real life) the presence of any initial coercion / manipulation can be ignored due to the fact that the fmc is actually into it.

Think of it as a cheap, lowbro, extremely butchered version of the exotic dish that is "sexual awakening".

Since the actual dish is so fucking rare, I'll make do with the awfully cheap knock offs (almost parodies even).

99 out of 100 times, the mc doesn't even register as a factor in my mind. On the rare occasions that the Mc is written decent enough, the experience acquires an added masochistic undertone. (Which, personally, kind of spoils the whole experience for me really.)

But, on the 1 in a millionth chance where that too is actually written well, I feel your description -- "watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe" -- fits the experience the most.

I have always wanted to hear perspectives of why its arousing for folks! This is really cool to hear and thanks very much for sharing. I always try to keep an open mind but NTR would add a bit too much masochistic taste for my enjoyment. But I appreciate this way of thinking because I have always thought that my own enjoyment of the genre was being jaded by the lens I am looking at. Your perspective provides me a whole new lens to examine the genre! Thank you!

 

[Arisushi]

I have always wanted to hear perspectives of why its arousing for folks! This is really cool to hear and thanks very much for sharing. I always try to keep an open mind but NTR would add a bit too much masochistic taste for my enjoyment. But I appreciate this way of thinking because I have always thought that my own enjoyment of the genre was being jaded by the lens I am looking at. Your perspective provides me a whole new lens to examine the genre! Thank you!

Glad to hear it helped it a little

Of course, I don't know the specifics of how others enjoy the genre (tag?). As, when it comes to NTR, I've only seen people saying they like/love it, but never expand upon WHY they like it.

So, I'm just as blind about how the larger part of the fandom enjoys it.

 

[Darksoul6565]

CYOA/IF REC: I THE FORGOTTEN ONE.

 

[Arisushi]

Strong recommendation for Shards of the Past. I was already intrigued by the first chapter, but chapter 2 was surprising in a way I didn't see coming, and now I'm properly invested.

It's a medieval looking fantasy adventure that's written beautifully. The dev has lofty goals and has his head on straight. He's NOT making a harem game and seems pretty confident in his plans (see my comment here).

Finally got around to playing this today, and it was really solid on so many levels.

The storytelling is so effective that -- I did not want to play any routes other than the one with my "natural" choices. (It felt like I'll be doing a disservice to "my" journey by peeking at other options.)

But for the sake of checking how impacting the choices actually are, I did speed run through some alternate choices. And I think, I made the right call earlier. The game is best enjoyed as what your own choices define it to be.

For example...

In my natural playthrough, I wondered if there was a bit of rashomon effect with Kaela and Caleb, where Branson only saw what he wanted to see.

But when I checked out some of the other choices, the chances of that happening came down a bit.

So, this is DEFINITELY the last time I'll be checking out the other routes. (Personally. I believe, that's a good testament to the engaging writing.)

Speaking of which, I love how Branson is a central piece to the story. The possibilities with him are endless.

My only worry with the game is if some LIs might fall for the mc too easily. That'll be like getting so close to a perfect 100, only to say "nah, 80-90 is good."

(To be fair, there hasn't been any significant signs of that happening yet. It's just an uneasy gut feeling I have. And I'd be happy if I was proven wrong.)

Still, doesn't take away from the fact that this was one of the most promising new games.

(Thanks a lot for recommending this one.)

 

[EndlessNights]

Personally I would've called this game "Super daddy's brain fart adventures". I forced myself through it for a little bit until the whole hospital story arc came along which made me wave the white flag prematurely. Or, to be more in synch with the game, I had to make hasty U turn before reaching the finish line... .

This was a bit of a rough read honestly. Good animations and stuff, but.... ?

My biggest disappointment with episode 1 was the way the game treated Lily's injury as a convenient plot device so I get why you might have bailed out when you did. You luckily managed to miss what to me was my least favorite part of the game: Jake and Cooper yukking it up in a bar as if nothing tragic had just happened (because everyone deals with grief in their own way, of course) only for Natalya to show up to offer a quickie (...because everyone deals with grief in their own way, naturally). Before Lily got hurt, I was actually really enjoying the dynamic of Jake clumsily managing his relationships with his ex-wife, current girlfriend/FWB, and his daughter. I wish there were more slice of life VNs that covered these kind of very real world scenarios. I think I would've preferred if the drama had been dialed down and Jake's racing had instead been more of a selfish, dangerous thing he chose to do to ward off ennui and try to hold on to his youth rather than a selfless thing he must do to try to save Lily's life.

While Jake's interactions with Allison, Veronica, and Lily to me tended to ring true to life more often than not, there's of course nothing terribly realistic about underground street racing being presented as some kind of quick path to millions, Lily's super futuristic medical treatment, or a class full of college girls who can barely keep their clothes on for 5 minutes straight when they're interacting with their dashing professor. I've come to view Race of Life as essentially two different stories in one. One part is silly, porny, and dramatic in a completely over the top way while the other, particularly Veronica and Allison's paths, is relatively grounded, quite interesting, and totally worth playing.

I view Veronica in many ways as the best fit for Jake. She's intelligent, caring, devoted, and yet also an absolute horndog just like her man. She's a great companion and ally, but also someone who has a lot of different aspects to her personality and who has led a colorful life. I also enjoyed seeing her try to transition the relationship from a FWB arrangement to something more serious and committed. I don't think that's being clingy or breaking boundaries necessarily...her feelings for Jake developed organically over time and she has every right to share them and ask for more. It's generally worse IMO when someone tries to turn a completely platonic friendship into something romantic which is an absolute staple plot of AVNs. If Jake isn't completely, irredeemably broken and entirely unfit for monogamy (which, granted, he very well might be), Veronica isn't someone he should get bored with. Most importantly, he also hasn't hurt her like he has Allison.

Much has already been said about Allison which I completely agree with. She is the character I root the most for and want to see "win." She's the one who is the most deserving of some happiness and stability in her life. I totally sympathize with her and understand her anger and her pain. Because I like Allison so much, it's hard to want her to get back together with Jake knowing the pain his infidelity caused her. I'm not sure he can realistically offer her happiness, stability, or anything else she deserves. At the same time, I hate myself a bit for loving seeing them together and the little moments they share, and I want to believe that there's a possibility that Jake can become a better person who won't hurt her again.

The branching in the game seems fairly significant. For instance, Jake can evidently ask four different people to accompany him to the ball which dramatically changes the event and its aftermath. I've only seen the versions with Veronica and Allison as those are the only two paths I'm playing at the moment, but I have to admit I'm a little curious about what happens if he takes Natalya and Jasmine even though I'm quite uninterested in either of those two as LIs. You can also lose the races. I'm not sure if this ever leads to a game over and I couldn't bear finding out, but it definitely seems to change the story and leads to different content. Events can also change quite a bit based on past choices. For instance, Veronica point blank asks Jake if he's still interested in Allison during their hike together if he took Ally to the ball. (The realistic way this scene and its aftermath plays out gave me even more appreciation for Vero as a character though Jake is arguably at his most clueless throughout). Choices definitely matter -- what jufot said about Jake fucking everything not bolted to the ground amused me because in my two playthroughs I've yet to see a single sex scene which didn't involve Veronica.

I can't say I share jufot's appreciation for Dr. Katzei. He's narcissistic to the point that every conversation ends up being about him, he mistreats the hospital staff, he completely lacks empathy for his patients and their families, and his care of Lily seems negligent given her bedsores. He seems to use his family connections to protect himself from the consequences of his misbehavior and potential incompetence. Like Dr. House, he might be great at his job if presented with an interesting case, but seems to be bad at some of the basic job requirements of his profession and he obviously loses interest when cases become less dramatic. I'd say William is a far worthier but still antagonistic character. He is well aware of Jake's shortcomings and points them out freely, but he's also fundamentally fair in how he conducts himself. He seems to be genuinely good at his job despite his abrasive personality.

 

[jufot]

what jufot said about Jake fucking everything not bolted to the ground amused me because in my two playthroughs I've yet to see a single sex scene which didn't involve Veronica.

I haven't seen any sex scenes in my playthrough, but I do know they are there because everyone keeps throwing themselves at Jake for some reason. And of course, I play with the script open

I can't say I share jufot's appreciation for Dr. Katzei. He's narcissistic to the point that every conversation ends up being about him, he mistreats the hospital staff, he completely lacks empathy for his patients and their families, and his care of Lily seems negligent given her bedsores. He seems to use his family connections to protect himself from the consequences of his misbehavior and potential incompetence. Like Dr. House, he might be great at his job if presented with an interesting case, but seems to be bad at some of the basic job requirements of his profession and he obviously loses interest when cases become less dramatic.

Like I said, I think the dev has an axe to grind with doctors, and many of Katzei's traits (e.g mistreatment of staff, family connections) are deliberately placed to antagonize the player. Yet, even with that axe, I think his first interaction with Jake and Allison was perfectly polite and emphatic. He gently told them the best thing they could do for their daughter is to go home and get some rest. He explained how, while this event is extraordinary for them, it's just another Thursday for him and that he knows what he's doing. He never even raised his voice. The only time he got curt with them (and reminded them that there are more urgent cases that need the nurses' attention) was when Jake and Allison were rude, loud and threatening with him over minor bedsores of all things, an incredibly common occurrence in bedridden patients. As for losing interest, did he? Coma patients don't require 24/7 attention from a doctor. As far as we can tell, he's doing his job just fine.

I admit, I'm not exactly unbiased. I have doctors in my family, and I have seen first hand how selfish, vitriolic, and violent family members can be. At my local hospital, the walls are covered with warnings about the consequences of verbally or physically abusing medical staff. If a family member pulled what Jake and Allison did, they'd be escorted out by security. Hell, Jake would probably be banned for grabbing Katzei's shoulder like that.

 

[EndlessNights]

Like I said, I think the dev has an axe to grind with doctors, and many of Katzei's traits (e.g mistreatment of staff, family connections) are deliberately placed to antagonize the player.

I think we have to accept the story as it is written at a certain point, don't we? If we just start wholesale rewriting the plot, we'll end up creating fanfiction rather than evaluating the VN as it exists. Otherwise, why don't we say the dev has an axe to grind against cheaters and that's why Jake is written as he is? He's secretly a perfectly decent though perhaps misunderstood man in the story we didn't get to read! Maybe he never even actually cheated in the first place but just needed to pretend he was to protect someone in a difficult position. A true saint.

The people who work or have worked directly with Katzei and should know him the best don't have much good to say about him at all so I tend to take them at their word...besides that, none of his behavior suggests we're getting an incorrect picture to me.

Yet, even with that axe, I think his first interaction with Jake and Allison was perfectly polite and emphatic. He gently told them the best thing they could do for their daughter is to go home and get some rest. He explained how, while this event is extraordinary for them, it's just another Thursday for him and that he knows what he's doing.

I think he made the conversation about him very quickly. For instance, his dig about how they should thank the staff instead of God was completely unnecessary. A lot of people would FEEL that way in Katzei's shoes, but why on Earth would you want to say that to an upset family? Even he himself says he's had this same conversation countless times -- why then is he so bad at it? I also don't think his emphasizing the relative unimportance of Lily's case was in any way empathetic. Of course she's the most important patient in the hospital to her parents -- that's their job, not saving humanity or the world or the most in need. They would feel most reassured knowing her case was being taken seriously and that the people providing medical care for her actually cared about her as a person and weren't treating her like a number or just another case on another Thursday. Dr. Katzei could have done what was needed in the situation using fewer words than he actually ended up saying.

Granted, some doctors have bad bedside manners and just aren't good at interacting with families. Dr. Katzei could be great at the non-interpersonal parts of being a doctor which at the end of the day are more important...but he also could be bad at all aspects for all we know.

 

[jufot]

I think we have to accept the story as it is written at a certain point, don't we? If we just start wholesale rewriting the plot, we'll end up creating fanfiction rather than evaluating the VN as it exists.

Fair enough.

 

[bacienvu88]

loud and threatening with him over minor bedsores of all things, an incredibly common occurrence in bedridden patients

While it is true that it is common. It is also pretty easy to avoid in most cases with proper care. Unfortunately at least where I live (Sweden) hospitals are perennially understaffed making proper care hard to achieve for the staff.

I admit, I'm not exactly unbiased. I have doctors in my family, and I have seen first hand how selfish, vitriolic, and violent family members can be. At my local hospital, the walls are covered with warnings about the consequences of verbally or physically abusing medical staff. If a family member pulled what Jake and Allison did, they'd be escorted out by security. Hell, Jake would probably be banned for grabbing Katzei's shoulder like that.

Wow, that sounds really bad. I have only experience as a patient and as a relative to a patient. Personally I always try to treat medical and hospital staff well whenever I am there for the selfish reason that the staff will likely treat me better if I do.

That said, it can also be incredibly frustrating to be a patient where you as a patient isn't fully informed about your own treatment and isn't given the chance to have an input and is just treated as an object that should just accept whatever the doctor says. Because the world will fall apart if the patient dares have an opinion on their own treatment.

Nurses, however have almost universally been great.

Granted, some doctors have bad bedside manners and just aren't good at interacting with families. Dr. Katzei could be great at the non-interpersonal parts of being a doctor which at the end of the day are more important...but he also could be bad at all aspects for all we know.

My experience is that doctors with bad bedside manners are not good at non-interpersonal parts either. They tend to only look at superficial symptoms and are likely to miss vital clues from patients as well as their friends and relatives. And they tend to be rather inflexible.

And if he actually is good at non-interpersonal parts while having bad bedside manners he would serve better in a role not facing patients directly.

 

[jufot]

Unfortunately at least where I live (Sweden) hospitals are perennially understaffed making proper care hard to achieve for the staff.

Same here in the UK, unfortunately

Personally I always try to treat medical and hospital staff well whenever I am there for the selfish reason that the staff will likely treat me better if I do.

That said, it can also be incredibly frustrating to be a patient where you as a patient isn't fully informed about your own treatment and isn't given the chance to have an input and is just treated as an object that should just accept whatever the doctor says. Because the world will fall apart if the patient dares have an opinion on their own treatment.

Nurses, however have almost universally been great.

Agreed on all counts, actually! Earlier this year, I spent 6 nights in a hospital bed for a minor surgical issue. The only doctor who talked to me on a given day was the on-call surgeon, who didn't have more than 2-3 minutes to spare. They were all brief, to the point, and had no interest in my, or my family's opinions. While it felt frustrating at the time, I understood why they were like that. I was an unremarkable patient in an over-stretched and understaffed hospital, there for the most boring of operations, and the chance of me saying anything relevant was quite low. I didn't resent them for it.

The nurses, on the other hand, were an absolute delight and were happy to chat with me

 

[realjitter]

I view Veronica in many ways as the best fit for Jake. She's intelligent, caring, devoted, and yet also an absolute horndog just like her man. She's a great companion and ally, but also someone who has a lot of different aspects to her personality and who has led a colorful life. I also enjoyed seeing her try to transition the relationship from a FWB arrangement to something more serious and committed. I don't think that's being clingy or breaking boundaries necessarily...her feelings for Jake developed organically over time and she has every right to share them and ask for more. It's generally worse IMO when someone tries to turn a completely platonic friendship into something romantic which is an absolute staple plot of AVNs. If Jake isn't completely, irredeemably broken and entirely unfit for monogamy (which, granted, he very well might be), Veronica isn't someone he should get bored with. Most importantly, he also hasn't hurt her like he has Allison.

When I played ROL I pretty quickly decided to play the asshole route because that's what the MC is. No need in trying to shape him into something else here in my opinion. I had no desire to read about some cringe, AVN logic, redemption story arc involving this guy... So in my run the MC thought of Veronica as of nothing more than her being a cum dumbster.... I didn't take any screenshots, but it's kinda "funny". Especially in his conversations with his , also not so smart, best buddy... I mean, how hold is the MC suppposed to be, 30?.

As for Veronica herself, it's like you've said, she's totally into the MC (poor girl). She wants a relationship with him and tries her hardest, mostly sexually of course, to win him over. On the other hand she comes across as someone who has a bit of a midlife crisis . That and her bad judgment of character. Should be interesting to see where the MC will end up on this route where he thinks of nothing about basically everybody.

Spoiler: spoiler alert

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I don't know, I was thinking about why the developer burdened himself with this whole ex wife/child storyline in the first place. Kind of an odd choice for this one since it cleary wants to do foremost the porn thing rather than the story thing. This becomes pretty appeared when you warch the lewd scenes and also how they're written. Bang bros would be proud here.

Again, all of this stuff wouldn't be a bad thing in a porn game, but I still couldn't stop shaking my had in this one. All the ingredients don't mix well together for some reason. For me at least that is.

There's just this "trifecta of stupidity" looming over basically every single storyline here. It starts with the MC and his buddy having a car race late at night which is pretty foreshadowing for what's to come. Then the accident of his child itself followed by the ingenious idea of he MC to participate in some illegal street race to make money.... Not to mention all the dumb stuff he's doing while his daughter is laying in a hospital... You can't write your way out of this. The MC's a loser, plain and simple.

Although, imagine the MC being the one responsable for the accident. Now that would've been some real drama =)

The nurses, on the other hand, were an absolute delight and were happy to chat with me

Nurses, however have almost universally been great.

I see how it is =)

 

[bacienvu88]

I see how it is =)

Exactly! How many sexy conversations I had with the nurses while being in pain, having trouble moving or even breathing. And the nurses drop their clothes to make the patients more comfortable! And there was definitely only hot female nurses in sexy outfits. It makes me horny just thinking about.

Reminds me of this transporter guy who insisted I should rate the nurses we met on the way to the examination rooms.

Unfortunately, life isn't like a porn game where if you are in a severe car crash* the only thing ailing you is being in a coma for a while and optionally having amnesia. Then when you awake up you can bang a couple nurses and go home 2 hours later ...

* That incidentally killed your father

 

[Raife]

I've come to view Race of Life as essentially two different stories in one. One part is silly, porny, and dramatic in a completely over the top way while the other, particularly Veronica and Allison's paths, is relatively grounded, quite interesting, and totally worth playing.

That's a good summary of my view of RfL: it's a porny game with great game mechanics, renders, and scenes, which has a surprising Easter egg of a story along a single branch one of its many routes (the Allison 'good' path). It's affecting enough, as of now, to keep me playing.

As for Veronica: I agree that she's a good LI and extremely hot. But... she's going to run into the same brick wall that Allison did -- the MC's selfish, douchebag nature -- unless he radically changes his ways. She's also shares too many tendencies common to other AVN LIs to be really interesting: namely her supportive, generous, extremely forgiving nature. She's a nice male fantasy, but not a brilliant LI.

You are spot on about William. In my first playthrough, my first reaction was that he was a somewhat OTT antagonist. As you get deeper into the game, though, it becomes fairly clear that his view of the MC hits quite close to the mark.

 

[Raife]

But, due to the "charged" nature of the subject, no matter how hard I try it feels like there's still plenty of room for misinterpretation, and honestly, it's scary how easily one little word can define how others perceive one's preferences, personality, or both.

Anyways, I hope f95 doesn't send a notification (to the quoted person or thread owner) each time I edit the post. If it did, I'm so sorry for the spam]

This is a good description of NTR qua NTR; I agree that's it's almost never written well. Your post makes it clear that it's actually a subspecies of the cheating genre with (potentially) masochistic elements.

The trouble, of course, is that this craptastic hellsite sometimes tags games that contain minor situations that _might_ inspire jealousy in some players (e.g. a LI having a flirtatious conversation with a NPC) as NTR. As we've discussed before many times, this treatment has -- very unfortunately -- led some devs to eschew creating scenes like this in order to avoid having their games tarred as NTR.

Finally, Arisushi -- you should not be worried about posting on 'controversial' topics, like NTR, on _this_ thread. This is the grownup section of this site, populated by grownups. Anywhere else on F95, you'd get dogpiled. Not here.

 

[Arisushi]

This is a good description of NTR qua NTR; I agree that's it's almost never written well. Your post makes it clear that it's actually a subspecies of the cheating genre with (potentially) masochistic elements.

The trouble, of course, is that this craptastic hellsite sometimes tags games that contain minor situations that _might_ inspire jealousy in some players (e.g. a LI having a flirtatious conversation with a NPC) as NTR. As we've discussed before many times, this treatment has -- very unfortunately -- led some devs to eschew creating scenes like this in order to avoid having their games tarred as NTR.

I absolutely love this site for providing a large-scale community experience for such a niche medium like AVNs. But it is also extremely exhausting and demotivating to see the pushback for certain creative decisions here.

Personally, I'd love to see the supporting characters in my games (love interests or otherwise) to have a life outside of the MC. (Friends, exes, rivals, crushes, etc.)

Sadly, as you said, this rampant fear of NTR (where "anything other than utmost devotion to mc's dick" is labelled as an unspeakable betrayal to the mc) actively discourages talented creators from doing that.

And it's clear as daylight that those "standards" are not going to go away / change any time soon.

So, in the end, it all just comes down to the handful of uncompromising devs, who are thick skinned enough, to brute force their way into success.

Hopefully, thanks to the constantly growing community, for every hundreds of "usual" games that are made each month, we will also get one passionate creator who wants to do more.

Finally, Arisushi -- you should not be worried about posting on 'controversial' topics, like NTR, on _this_ thread. This is the grownup section of this site, populated by grownups. Anywhere else on F95, you'd get dogpiled. Not here.

Thank you for that. It really is nice to have a "safe space" to discuss the (pointlessly) controversial stuff

 

[SilentRunning]

I absolutely love this site for providing a large-scale community experience for such a niche medium like AVNs. But it is also extremely exhausting and demotivating to see the pushback for certain creative decisions here.

Personally, I'd love to see the supporting characters in my games (love interests or otherwise) to have a life outside of the MC. (Friends, exes, rivals, crushes, etc.)

Sadly, as you said, this rampant fear of NTR (where "anything other than utmost devotion to mc's dick" is labelled as an unspeakable betrayal to the mc) actively discourages talented creators from doing that.

And it's clear as daylight that those "standards" are not going to go away / change any time soon.

So, in the end, it all just comes down to the handful of uncompromising devs, who are thick skinned enough, to brute force their way into success.

Hopefully, thanks to the constantly growing community, for every hundreds of "usual" games that are made each month, we will also get one passionate creator who wants to do more.



Thank you for that. It really is nice to have a "safe space" to discuss the (pointlessly) controversial stuff

I think you have nailed the most problematic issues on this site. There is an army of users who seem to share a fetish for attempting to force all game creators to kowtow to their personal desires. It stifles creativity and has brought the end of many games.

I would argue it might be the most popular fetish on this site, especially if you include the desire to force all creatives to endlessly work to output an unrealistic amount of interesting product to avoid being called a milker. Do people not understand that creativity often requires inspiration?

People are so unrelenting. It drives me crazy. I often feel sorry for many of the developers. It is painful to see as a spectator but I think it would be unbelievably hard to eat on a daily basis.

This applies to narrative as well as to mechanics.

Many of my favorite games are poorly rated as every single time they come out with a new version an army of self centered critics rear up to let everyone know that their personal needs were not met. Half the time what these people actually want is for the developer to make an entirely different game.

Developers need to tell their stories and make their visions, otherwise every game turns out to be the same.

There are a few developers that just weather the storm and do what they do, but I am sure it isn't always easy.

 

[Arisushi]

I would argue it might be the most popular fetish on this site, especially if you include the desire to force all creatives to endlessly work to output an unrealistic amount of interesting product to avoid being called a milker. Do people not understand that creativity often requires inspiration?

People are so unrelenting. It drives me crazy. I often feel sorry for many of the developers. It is painful to see as a spectator but I think it would be unbelievably hard to eat on a daily basis.

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

 

[bacienvu88]

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

I never understood the "milking" accusation anyway.

If you are a supporter and don't like the direction the game is taking, just stop paying. If there is an exodus of supporters I'm sure the dev will notice.

And if you are not a supporter, then

 

[noping123]

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I mean yes, there's absolutely a handful of devs who milk the shit out of stuff, and I won't even bother to name them at this point because we all know who they are.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

 

[bacienvu88]

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I mean yes, there's absolutely a handful of devs who milk the shit out of stuff, and I won't even bother to name them at this point because we all know who they are.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

I hate that the Patreon model puts that kind of pressure on devs. Even if it is only self-applied. Earning money from the game should be the reward you get for your hard work, not a whip to push you into overworking yourself.