Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

what jufot said about Jake fucking everything not bolted to the ground amused me because in my two playthroughs I've yet to see a single sex scene which didn't involve Veronica.

I haven't seen any sex scenes in my playthrough, but I do know they are there because everyone keeps throwing themselves at Jake for some reason. And of course, I play with the script open

I can't say I share jufot's appreciation for Dr. Katzei. He's narcissistic to the point that every conversation ends up being about him, he mistreats the hospital staff, he completely lacks empathy for his patients and their families, and his care of Lily seems negligent given her bedsores. He seems to use his family connections to protect himself from the consequences of his misbehavior and potential incompetence. Like Dr. House, he might be great at his job if presented with an interesting case, but seems to be bad at some of the basic job requirements of his profession and he obviously loses interest when cases become less dramatic.

Like I said, I think the dev has an axe to grind with doctors, and many of Katzei's traits (e.g mistreatment of staff, family connections) are deliberately placed to antagonize the player. Yet, even with that axe, I think his first interaction with Jake and Allison was perfectly polite and emphatic. He gently told them the best thing they could do for their daughter is to go home and get some rest. He explained how, while this event is extraordinary for them, it's just another Thursday for him and that he knows what he's doing. He never even raised his voice. The only time he got curt with them (and reminded them that there are more urgent cases that need the nurses' attention) was when Jake and Allison were rude, loud and threatening with him over minor bedsores of all things, an incredibly common occurrence in bedridden patients. As for losing interest, did he? Coma patients don't require 24/7 attention from a doctor. As far as we can tell, he's doing his job just fine.

I admit, I'm not exactly unbiased. I have doctors in my family, and I have seen first hand how selfish, vitriolic, and violent family members can be. At my local hospital, the walls are covered with warnings about the consequences of verbally or physically abusing medical staff. If a family member pulled what Jake and Allison did, they'd be escorted out by security. Hell, Jake would probably be banned for grabbing Katzei's shoulder like that.

 

[EndlessNights]

Like I said, I think the dev has an axe to grind with doctors, and many of Katzei's traits (e.g mistreatment of staff, family connections) are deliberately placed to antagonize the player.

I think we have to accept the story as it is written at a certain point, don't we? If we just start wholesale rewriting the plot, we'll end up creating fanfiction rather than evaluating the VN as it exists. Otherwise, why don't we say the dev has an axe to grind against cheaters and that's why Jake is written as he is? He's secretly a perfectly decent though perhaps misunderstood man in the story we didn't get to read! Maybe he never even actually cheated in the first place but just needed to pretend he was to protect someone in a difficult position. A true saint.

The people who work or have worked directly with Katzei and should know him the best don't have much good to say about him at all so I tend to take them at their word...besides that, none of his behavior suggests we're getting an incorrect picture to me.

Yet, even with that axe, I think his first interaction with Jake and Allison was perfectly polite and emphatic. He gently told them the best thing they could do for their daughter is to go home and get some rest. He explained how, while this event is extraordinary for them, it's just another Thursday for him and that he knows what he's doing.

I think he made the conversation about him very quickly. For instance, his dig about how they should thank the staff instead of God was completely unnecessary. A lot of people would FEEL that way in Katzei's shoes, but why on Earth would you want to say that to an upset family? Even he himself says he's had this same conversation countless times -- why then is he so bad at it? I also don't think his emphasizing the relative unimportance of Lily's case was in any way empathetic. Of course she's the most important patient in the hospital to her parents -- that's their job, not saving humanity or the world or the most in need. They would feel most reassured knowing her case was being taken seriously and that the people providing medical care for her actually cared about her as a person and weren't treating her like a number or just another case on another Thursday. Dr. Katzei could have done what was needed in the situation using fewer words than he actually ended up saying.

Granted, some doctors have bad bedside manners and just aren't good at interacting with families. Dr. Katzei could be great at the non-interpersonal parts of being a doctor which at the end of the day are more important...but he also could be bad at all aspects for all we know.

 

[jufot]

I think we have to accept the story as it is written at a certain point, don't we? If we just start wholesale rewriting the plot, we'll end up creating fanfiction rather than evaluating the VN as it exists.

Fair enough.

 

[bacienvu88]

loud and threatening with him over minor bedsores of all things, an incredibly common occurrence in bedridden patients

While it is true that it is common. It is also pretty easy to avoid in most cases with proper care. Unfortunately at least where I live (Sweden) hospitals are perennially understaffed making proper care hard to achieve for the staff.

I admit, I'm not exactly unbiased. I have doctors in my family, and I have seen first hand how selfish, vitriolic, and violent family members can be. At my local hospital, the walls are covered with warnings about the consequences of verbally or physically abusing medical staff. If a family member pulled what Jake and Allison did, they'd be escorted out by security. Hell, Jake would probably be banned for grabbing Katzei's shoulder like that.

Wow, that sounds really bad. I have only experience as a patient and as a relative to a patient. Personally I always try to treat medical and hospital staff well whenever I am there for the selfish reason that the staff will likely treat me better if I do.

That said, it can also be incredibly frustrating to be a patient where you as a patient isn't fully informed about your own treatment and isn't given the chance to have an input and is just treated as an object that should just accept whatever the doctor says. Because the world will fall apart if the patient dares have an opinion on their own treatment.

Nurses, however have almost universally been great.

Granted, some doctors have bad bedside manners and just aren't good at interacting with families. Dr. Katzei could be great at the non-interpersonal parts of being a doctor which at the end of the day are more important...but he also could be bad at all aspects for all we know.

My experience is that doctors with bad bedside manners are not good at non-interpersonal parts either. They tend to only look at superficial symptoms and are likely to miss vital clues from patients as well as their friends and relatives. And they tend to be rather inflexible.

And if he actually is good at non-interpersonal parts while having bad bedside manners he would serve better in a role not facing patients directly.

 

[jufot]

Unfortunately at least where I live (Sweden) hospitals are perennially understaffed making proper care hard to achieve for the staff.

Same here in the UK, unfortunately

Personally I always try to treat medical and hospital staff well whenever I am there for the selfish reason that the staff will likely treat me better if I do.

That said, it can also be incredibly frustrating to be a patient where you as a patient isn't fully informed about your own treatment and isn't given the chance to have an input and is just treated as an object that should just accept whatever the doctor says. Because the world will fall apart if the patient dares have an opinion on their own treatment.

Nurses, however have almost universally been great.

Agreed on all counts, actually! Earlier this year, I spent 6 nights in a hospital bed for a minor surgical issue. The only doctor who talked to me on a given day was the on-call surgeon, who didn't have more than 2-3 minutes to spare. They were all brief, to the point, and had no interest in my, or my family's opinions. While it felt frustrating at the time, I understood why they were like that. I was an unremarkable patient in an over-stretched and understaffed hospital, there for the most boring of operations, and the chance of me saying anything relevant was quite low. I didn't resent them for it.

The nurses, on the other hand, were an absolute delight and were happy to chat with me

 

[realjitter]

I view Veronica in many ways as the best fit for Jake. She's intelligent, caring, devoted, and yet also an absolute horndog just like her man. She's a great companion and ally, but also someone who has a lot of different aspects to her personality and who has led a colorful life. I also enjoyed seeing her try to transition the relationship from a FWB arrangement to something more serious and committed. I don't think that's being clingy or breaking boundaries necessarily...her feelings for Jake developed organically over time and she has every right to share them and ask for more. It's generally worse IMO when someone tries to turn a completely platonic friendship into something romantic which is an absolute staple plot of AVNs. If Jake isn't completely, irredeemably broken and entirely unfit for monogamy (which, granted, he very well might be), Veronica isn't someone he should get bored with. Most importantly, he also hasn't hurt her like he has Allison.

When I played ROL I pretty quickly decided to play the asshole route because that's what the MC is. No need in trying to shape him into something else here in my opinion. I had no desire to read about some cringe, AVN logic, redemption story arc involving this guy... So in my run the MC thought of Veronica as of nothing more than her being a cum dumbster.... I didn't take any screenshots, but it's kinda "funny". Especially in his conversations with his , also not so smart, best buddy... I mean, how hold is the MC suppposed to be, 30?.

As for Veronica herself, it's like you've said, she's totally into the MC (poor girl). She wants a relationship with him and tries her hardest, mostly sexually of course, to win him over. On the other hand she comes across as someone who has a bit of a midlife crisis . That and her bad judgment of character. Should be interesting to see where the MC will end up on this route where he thinks of nothing about basically everybody.

Spoiler: spoiler alert

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I don't know, I was thinking about why the developer burdened himself with this whole ex wife/child storyline in the first place. Kind of an odd choice for this one since it cleary wants to do foremost the porn thing rather than the story thing. This becomes pretty appeared when you warch the lewd scenes and also how they're written. Bang bros would be proud here.

Again, all of this stuff wouldn't be a bad thing in a porn game, but I still couldn't stop shaking my had in this one. All the ingredients don't mix well together for some reason. For me at least that is.

There's just this "trifecta of stupidity" looming over basically every single storyline here. It starts with the MC and his buddy having a car race late at night which is pretty foreshadowing for what's to come. Then the accident of his child itself followed by the ingenious idea of he MC to participate in some illegal street race to make money.... Not to mention all the dumb stuff he's doing while his daughter is laying in a hospital... You can't write your way out of this. The MC's a loser, plain and simple.

Although, imagine the MC being the one responsable for the accident. Now that would've been some real drama =)

The nurses, on the other hand, were an absolute delight and were happy to chat with me

Nurses, however have almost universally been great.

I see how it is =)

 

[bacienvu88]

I see how it is =)

Exactly! How many sexy conversations I had with the nurses while being in pain, having trouble moving or even breathing. And the nurses drop their clothes to make the patients more comfortable! And there was definitely only hot female nurses in sexy outfits. It makes me horny just thinking about.

Reminds me of this transporter guy who insisted I should rate the nurses we met on the way to the examination rooms.

Unfortunately, life isn't like a porn game where if you are in a severe car crash* the only thing ailing you is being in a coma for a while and optionally having amnesia. Then when you awake up you can bang a couple nurses and go home 2 hours later ...

* That incidentally killed your father

 

[Raife]

I've come to view Race of Life as essentially two different stories in one. One part is silly, porny, and dramatic in a completely over the top way while the other, particularly Veronica and Allison's paths, is relatively grounded, quite interesting, and totally worth playing.

That's a good summary of my view of RfL: it's a porny game with great game mechanics, renders, and scenes, which has a surprising Easter egg of a story along a single branch one of its many routes (the Allison 'good' path). It's affecting enough, as of now, to keep me playing.

As for Veronica: I agree that she's a good LI and extremely hot. But... she's going to run into the same brick wall that Allison did -- the MC's selfish, douchebag nature -- unless he radically changes his ways. She's also shares too many tendencies common to other AVN LIs to be really interesting: namely her supportive, generous, extremely forgiving nature. She's a nice male fantasy, but not a brilliant LI.

You are spot on about William. In my first playthrough, my first reaction was that he was a somewhat OTT antagonist. As you get deeper into the game, though, it becomes fairly clear that his view of the MC hits quite close to the mark.

 

[Raife]

But, due to the "charged" nature of the subject, no matter how hard I try it feels like there's still plenty of room for misinterpretation, and honestly, it's scary how easily one little word can define how others perceive one's preferences, personality, or both.

Anyways, I hope f95 doesn't send a notification (to the quoted person or thread owner) each time I edit the post. If it did, I'm so sorry for the spam]

This is a good description of NTR qua NTR; I agree that's it's almost never written well. Your post makes it clear that it's actually a subspecies of the cheating genre with (potentially) masochistic elements.

The trouble, of course, is that this craptastic hellsite sometimes tags games that contain minor situations that _might_ inspire jealousy in some players (e.g. a LI having a flirtatious conversation with a NPC) as NTR. As we've discussed before many times, this treatment has -- very unfortunately -- led some devs to eschew creating scenes like this in order to avoid having their games tarred as NTR.

Finally, Arisushi -- you should not be worried about posting on 'controversial' topics, like NTR, on _this_ thread. This is the grownup section of this site, populated by grownups. Anywhere else on F95, you'd get dogpiled. Not here.

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

This is a good description of NTR qua NTR; I agree that's it's almost never written well. Your post makes it clear that it's actually a subspecies of the cheating genre with (potentially) masochistic elements.

The trouble, of course, is that this craptastic hellsite sometimes tags games that contain minor situations that _might_ inspire jealousy in some players (e.g. a LI having a flirtatious conversation with a NPC) as NTR. As we've discussed before many times, this treatment has -- very unfortunately -- led some devs to eschew creating scenes like this in order to avoid having their games tarred as NTR.

I absolutely love this site for providing a large-scale community experience for such a niche medium like AVNs. But it is also extremely exhausting and demotivating to see the pushback for certain creative decisions here.

Personally, I'd love to see the supporting characters in my games (love interests or otherwise) to have a life outside of the MC. (Friends, exes, rivals, crushes, etc.)

Sadly, as you said, this rampant fear of NTR (where "anything other than utmost devotion to mc's dick" is labelled as an unspeakable betrayal to the mc) actively discourages talented creators from doing that.

And it's clear as daylight that those "standards" are not going to go away / change any time soon.

So, in the end, it all just comes down to the handful of uncompromising devs, who are thick skinned enough, to brute force their way into success.

Hopefully, thanks to the constantly growing community, for every hundreds of "usual" games that are made each month, we will also get one passionate creator who wants to do more.

Finally, Arisushi -- you should not be worried about posting on 'controversial' topics, like NTR, on _this_ thread. This is the grownup section of this site, populated by grownups. Anywhere else on F95, you'd get dogpiled. Not here.

Thank you for that. It really is nice to have a "safe space" to discuss the (pointlessly) controversial stuff

 

[SilentRunning]

I absolutely love this site for providing a large-scale community experience for such a niche medium like AVNs. But it is also extremely exhausting and demotivating to see the pushback for certain creative decisions here.

Personally, I'd love to see the supporting characters in my games (love interests or otherwise) to have a life outside of the MC. (Friends, exes, rivals, crushes, etc.)

Sadly, as you said, this rampant fear of NTR (where "anything other than utmost devotion to mc's dick" is labelled as an unspeakable betrayal to the mc) actively discourages talented creators from doing that.

And it's clear as daylight that those "standards" are not going to go away / change any time soon.

So, in the end, it all just comes down to the handful of uncompromising devs, who are thick skinned enough, to brute force their way into success.

Hopefully, thanks to the constantly growing community, for every hundreds of "usual" games that are made each month, we will also get one passionate creator who wants to do more.



Thank you for that. It really is nice to have a "safe space" to discuss the (pointlessly) controversial stuff

I think you have nailed the most problematic issues on this site. There is an army of users who seem to share a fetish for attempting to force all game creators to kowtow to their personal desires. It stifles creativity and has brought the end of many games.

I would argue it might be the most popular fetish on this site, especially if you include the desire to force all creatives to endlessly work to output an unrealistic amount of interesting product to avoid being called a milker. Do people not understand that creativity often requires inspiration?

People are so unrelenting. It drives me crazy. I often feel sorry for many of the developers. It is painful to see as a spectator but I think it would be unbelievably hard to eat on a daily basis.

This applies to narrative as well as to mechanics.

Many of my favorite games are poorly rated as every single time they come out with a new version an army of self centered critics rear up to let everyone know that their personal needs were not met. Half the time what these people actually want is for the developer to make an entirely different game.

Developers need to tell their stories and make their visions, otherwise every game turns out to be the same.

There are a few developers that just weather the storm and do what they do, but I am sure it isn't always easy.

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

I would argue it might be the most popular fetish on this site, especially if you include the desire to force all creatives to endlessly work to output an unrealistic amount of interesting product to avoid being called a milker. Do people not understand that creativity often requires inspiration?

People are so unrelenting. It drives me crazy. I often feel sorry for many of the developers. It is painful to see as a spectator but I think it would be unbelievably hard to eat on a daily basis.

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

 

[bacienvu88]

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

I never understood the "milking" accusation anyway.

If you are a supporter and don't like the direction the game is taking, just stop paying. If there is an exodus of supporters I'm sure the dev will notice.

And if you are not a supporter, then

 

[Cskin Games]

Personally, the "milker" accusation is the one thing I've learnt to completely ignore when checking out the reception for the games I like.

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

So, (while I understand it's not easy to ignore unwarranted hate/critcism), I'd actually recommend not paying too much attention to comments that are unnecessarily twitchy about milking.

---

(Note: Of course, I'm not saying there aren't any devs who abuse the trust of their supporters, but the milker label being thrown at everyone and their grandmothers these days is just plain hilarious.)

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I mean yes, there's absolutely a handful of devs who milk the shit out of stuff, and I won't even bother to name them at this point because we all know who they are.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

 

[bacienvu88]

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I mean yes, there's absolutely a handful of devs who milk the shit out of stuff, and I won't even bother to name them at this point because we all know who they are.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

I hate that the Patreon model puts that kind of pressure on devs. Even if it is only self-applied. Earning money from the game should be the reward you get for your hard work, not a whip to push you into overworking yourself.

 

[Raife]

Simply because, contrary to the loud protests about slow production, and the frequent name calling of "lazy" devs, those who actually support the games have proven time and again that they're very patient and trusting.

If you've proven your game is worth their attention, they will support you irrespective of how other see your work.

There are three principles that I apply to financially backing devs:

1. I support the dev and their creative process, not a particular game.
2. My only exhortation to devs is to pursue their vision.
3. I _never_ expect that a dev should adhere to a particular release schedule.

There is a core group of maybe a dozen devs, including Tlaero and Mortze, that I've supported for many years (certainly before they were Tlaero and Mortze... back in the days of Phreaky). And a newer group, with more turnover, that I've supported for only few years. Most appear on jufot's list.

Arisushi, you're absolutely right that the people who complain the loudest about so-called 'milking' are players, typically on this august site, who don't actually provide any financial support to devs. I suppose that if you are unemployed and live alone in the basement of Mom's house, high demand for wank material and limited supply of cash can lead to frustration. It's tragic.

I feel strongly that devs with compelling creative visions (like you) deserve support. Not because I'm buying some sort of subscription service, but because I'm interested in the way you tell stories. (I can't speak for jufot, but I am nearly certain that he feels the same way.)

 

[Raife]

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

That's because you're dedicated to your work, noping. And... as you say, your neurotic desire to work like crazy on your game is quite common among devs.

Which makes me all the more furious at the fulminating morass of mouth-breathing tossers on this wondrous hellsite who accuse you and other devs of 'milking.'

My advice to such worthies is: 1) Get a job; 2) Move out of Mom's basement; 3) Discover that it is hard to convince people to give you their money for performing a service, creative or otherwise. [Rant over!!]

 

[jufot]

I can't speak for jufot, but I am nearly certain that he feels the same way.

Indeed. I support quite a few devs on Patreon and I'm sure we have significant overlap as our motivations are largely identical.

 

[bacienvu88]

I don't know about you - but any day I get less than "X amount" of work done, I FEEL like I'm milking people's money - so I generally always do at least "X amount".

I mean yes, there's absolutely a handful of devs who milk the shit out of stuff, and I won't even bother to name them at this point because we all know who they are.

But speaking for myself, and at least a handful of devs I've spoken to before - I often end up working more than I "should" because I feel like I'm milking people if I don't - and I'm not even being accused of it.

Thinking about this a bit more I think that that we use the word "milking" is itself a problem. When we say that a dev is "milking" we conveniently get to complain about development time and bad faith actors without really saying what we actually mean. To me, development time is never a problem. The dev already has plenty incentives to work as much as possible on the game.

What is a problem however is when a dev intentionally or unintentionally deceives their patreons by repeatedly promising updates and content that they don't deliver or other bad faith behaviour. This incentivizes prospective patreons to spend money on the project under false pretenses which not only harms those who pays to these projects; it also harms the development community in general by decreasing trust in devs. But calling this deception "milking" both trivialises the actual problem while vilifying good devs who just have long and irregular development cycles because the meaning of the word mixes the deception with long development times making it easy to apply to all devs regardless if they are acting in good faith or not.

 

[Tlaero]

Since I tend to release full games rather than episodes, I don't personally get accused of "milking" very much. But I've had to stop reading certain threads for other devs because the complainers were raising my blood pressure.

I'm pretty sure that no Patron has ever complained about milking. A Patron would just stop paying. The vast, vast, vast majority of complainers have never done a single thing to support the dev, and now they're actively trying to hurt the dev through convincing their Patrons to leave.

Fortunately most Patrons are smart enough to make their own decisions.

Tlaero