Recommending Story-first games

[turbojoe]

If only.....

Shards of the past`s description reminds me on SnowStorm, which I really loved!
So I´ll give it a try

 

[Raife]

To sum it up: you're looking for a mix of classic greek tragedy and the emotional equivalent of NTR, where instead of her getting fucked by another dude, you're both getting fucked by circumstance/fate? (so, basically, classic greek tragedy, but in AVN form)

Considering the apparent popularity of that three letter genre, I'd assume this to be a subgenre that actually exist(s/ed).

Definitely not the emotional equivalent of NTR. The MC wins: a better version of himself, and the love of someone worthy of loving and being loved. He certainly doesn't lose her to another or experience betrayal. That's a different kind of pain entirely.

There's also something strange that can happen when someone who loves you unconditionally dies: they stay with you, and can become an immense source of strength, particularly in dark times. After all, if Mr. or Ms. X thought you were worthy of love... then maybe Y or Z dark moments aren't so bad. You're never quite alone. (Not sure if this makes me sound romantic or nuts, but it's true in my experience.)

Finally, no -- there's no sub-genre of tragic AVNs. How do I know? Well, (A) because jufot would have a bunch of them on his list, and (B) they would be commercial disasters.

Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

 

[Raife]

With a gasp of disbelief, she stared at Raife, who did not trust her words.

First, I never trust a strange werewolf, on the same principle that you should never smile at a crocodile.

And secondly, I now find myself being trolled by both jufot and a dev I respect. It's like Christmas!

 

[Bombmaster]

Definitely not the emotional equivalent of NTR. The MC wins: a better version of himself, and the love of someone worthy of loving and being loved. He certainly doesn't lose her to another or experience betrayal. That's a different kind of pain entirely.

There's also something strange that can happen when someone dies who loves you unconditionally: they stay with you, and can become an immense source of strength, particularly in dark times. After all, if Mr. or Ms. X thought you were worthy of love... then maybe Y or Z dark moments aren't so bad. You're never quite alone. (Not sure if this makes me sound romantic or nuts, but it's true in my experience.)

Finally, no -- there's no sub-genre of tragic AVNs. How do I know? Well, (A) because jufot would have a bunch of them on his list, and (B) they would be commercial disasters.

Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

nice points, i dig the drama and martyrdom for the Mc/Hero and clearly is not a commom troupe.
I guess you need a game with two routes to allow having a soul crushing path and a lighter one for the most sane folks.

Noticed the drama is always dished into Lis and side characters as Mc need to remain hollow and pure.

 

[jufot]

And it didn't used to be that way: Gary Cooper's character in _High Noon_... the man who knows enough about the world to be afraid and doubt themselves, but also understands their ironclad moral duty and personal responsibility, even in hopeless causes, is no longer seen as a 'real man.'

Heh, John Wayne called High Noon "the most un-American thing I have ever seen" which, when you think about it, couldn't have been a better endorsement

 

[thanks for the demos]

Definitely not the emotional equivalent of NTR. The MC wins: a better version of himself, and the love of someone worthy of loving and being loved. He certainly doesn't lose her to another or experience betrayal. That's a different kind of pain entirely.


Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

Since you took the time to answer my semi-facetious comment, might as well clear up a misconception: so, the appeal(?) of NTR is explicitly about the experience of betrayal, not loss? Fair point then, that is a quite different pain.

A genuine question to those who do like NTR stories:
Is it a masochistic appeal born from empathy with the PC, a sadistic pleasure of watching someone unworthy experiencing betrayal or more akin to, say, watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe? Or varying depending on mood / personal predilection?

There's also something strange that can happen when someone who loves you unconditionally dies: they stay with you, and can become an immense source of strength, particularly in dark times. After all, if Mr. or Ms. X thought you were worthy of love... then maybe Y or Z dark moments aren't so bad. You're never quite alone. (Not sure if this makes me sound romantic or nuts, but it's true in my experience.)

I'd agree, but that's a perspective that requires distance and reflection (possible therapy too). If the protagonist is reminiscing about that part of his life in a couple of years, he might be able to think back with thankfulness for getting a second chance he didn't deserve and experience something transforming, no matter how painful, that ultimately will have changed him for he better.

But - depending on the nature and timing of the death - I'd imagine the immediate impact is more likely to throw an already shaky vehicle completely off it's tracks (if you'll pardon the tortured car metaphor) - survivor's guilt, depression, shame about all the time they've missed because he couldn't get his head out of his own ass, etc.

Finally, no -- there's no sub-genre of tragic AVNs. How do I know? Well, (A) because jufot would have a bunch of them on his list, and (B) they would be commercial disasters.

Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

I'd argue that many of Ebi-Hime's games (represented on jufot's list with End of an Actress and Salome's Kiss) are tragic and can't be fully enjoyed without either a) empathy with flawed characters or b) a more abstract appreciation for misery.

While I'd agree that many are more likely to look for wish fulfillment or specific kinks in their AVNs I'm increasingly hesitant of assuming to know why and in which way others enjoy the things they do / that they enjoy them for similar reasons as mine.

So I'll let jufot answer for themself. @ jufot: Mind to reiterate? What do you specifically like about Ebi-Hime's stories (and other tragic AVNs if you can think of more good examples, whether they constitute their own subgenre or not)?
Empathy, misery - masochistic/sadistic?, catharsis? Their approach to an unusual subject matter (for AVNs), all of the above, something else entirely, non-generalizable and specific to each story?

Also, is Salome's Kiss the emotional equivalent of NTR (since it actually is about betrayal)?

 

[Raife]

But - depending on the nature of the death, I'd imagine the immediate impact is more likely to throw an already shaky vehicle completely off it's tracks (if you'll pardon the tortured car metaphor) - survivor's guilt, depression, shame about all the time they've missed because he couldn't get his head out of his own ass, etc.

I agree with you entirely: I said 'can' in relation to such losses, rather than 'do.' The analogy I sometimes use is the difference between brittle iron and steel. They both contain the same basic element, but a little additional carbon, heat and time, and working make the latter much, much stronger.

You're right that some terrible experiences can shatter a person; this is the sort of experience that seems to get the most media attention these days. Less noticed is the fact that some people, for rather idiosyncratic reasons, can derive immense mental strength, resilience and fortitude from the most appalling losses.

I'd love to see the latter explored more in games, particularly in LI roles. Heavy blows can shatter iron... but they can also shape it into steel.

 

[Arisushi]

A genuine question to those who do like NTR stories:
Is it a masochistic appeal born from empathy with the PC, a sadistic pleasure of watching someone unworthy experiencing betrayal or more akin to, say, watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe? Or varying depending on mood / personal predilection?

Ironically, my enjoyment of NTR almost always has zero ties with the mc.

I enjoy NTR as a secret relationship between the fmc (who is opening up to / sinking into a taboo experience), and the antagonist (who is a dominant figure who "awakens" their sexual desires)

Primarily because most NTR often end up showing the fmc liking the debauchery they're pushed into. (And since this is not real life) the presence of any initial coercion / manipulation can be ignored due to the fact that the fmc is actually into it.

Think of it as a cheap, lowbro, extremely butchered version of the exotic dish that is "sexual awakening".

Since the actual dish is so fucking rare, I'll make do with the awfully cheap knock offs (almost parodies even).

99 out of 100 times, the mc doesn't even register as a factor in my mind. On the rare occasions that the Mc is written decent enough, the experience acquires an added masochistic undertone. (Which, personally, kind of spoils the whole experience for me really.)

But, on the 1 in a millionth chance where that too is actually written well, I feel your description -- "watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe" -- fits the experience the most.

---

[NOTE:

I've edited this post more than a couple of times now.

But, due to the "charged" nature of the subject, no matter how hard I try it feels like there's still plenty of room for misinterpretation, and honestly, it's scary how easily one little word can define how others perceive one's preferences, personality, or both.

Anyways, I hope f95 doesn't send a notification (to the quoted person or thread owner) each time I edit the post. If it did, I'm so sorry for the spam]

 

[jufot]

I'd argue that many of Ebi-Hime's games (represented on jufot's list with End of an Actress and Salome's Kiss) are tragic and can't be fully enjoyed without either a) empathy with flawed characters or b) a more abstract appreciation for misery.
[...]
So I'll let jufot answer for themself. @ jufot: Mind to reiterate? What do you specifically like about Ebi-Hime's stories (and other tragic AVNs if you can think of more good examples, whether they constitute their own subgenre or not)?
Empathy, misery - masochistic/sadistic?, catharsis? Their approach to an unusual subject matter (for AVNs), all of the above, something else entirely, non-generalizable and specific to each story?

Yes, ebi-hime is a great example and I identify with both 'a' and 'b'. I like fiction that stays with me long after I'm done with it*, which is why I prefer tragedy to comedy. It's not masochism or sadism either, more so an intense fascination with the darker corners of the human condition I like complicated characters who do bad things (by societal standards) and yet still be obviously good people. Shades of gray, if you will. End of and Actress and Salome's Kiss contain a number of such characters.

Also, is Salome's Kiss the emotional equivalent of NTR (since it actually is about betrayal)?

Well, netorare involves your lover being taken away from you but in Salome's Kiss she was never yours to begin with so it's not exactly NTR

* I still remember almost everything about the original Flowers in the Attic quadrilogy nearly two decades after reading them.

 

[realjitter]

Alright, you guys made me curious about race of life. I mean, you're talking about this

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game, right?.

The game in which the MC tells his ex wife right at the beginning that she doesn't know how to swallow?. Just wanted to make sure that there aren't 2 games out there called race of life.

Personally I would've called this game "Super daddy's brain fart adventures". I forced myself through it for a little bit until the whole hospital story arc came along which made me wave the white flag prematurely. Or, to be more in synch with the game, I had to make hasty U turn before reaching the finish line... .

This was a bit of a rough read honestly. Good animations and stuff, but.... ?

 

[jufot]

I mean, you're talking about this [...] game, right?.

Congratulations, you've identified my second most hated character!

The game in which the MC tells his ex wife right at the beginning that she doesn't know how to swallow?.

Congratulations again! Now you identified my most hated character

Race of Life is best played by mentally detaching yourself from the MC, and just pretending it's Allison's story of how she gets rid of her pest of an ex-husband.

 

[realjitter]

just pretending it's Allison's story of how she gets rid of his pest of an ex-husband.

Hmm, I haven't thought about it from that perspective =). That's some outside of the box thinking right there... Anyhow, are there any AVNs/updates you'd recomment?. I feel a little out of it since I took a bit of a break from this stuff.

 

[Dessolos]

Race of Life is best played by mentally detaching yourself from the MC, and just pretending it's Allison's story of how she gets rid of his pest of an ex-husband.

Now thinking about it after you said that that's probably a big part why Allsion is my favorite and on my top 3 LI across all AVN's because I always play AVN's detached from the MC. It made it easier for me to feel bad for her and want her to get back together with the MC. Especially because I play detached I find it hard to pick any options that are fighting back / being mean or an asshole always the nice options and the more nice options I picked I slowly started to like her more and more. I'm sure if I wasnt too nice of a person in RL and picked more mean options id hate her probally.

 

[jufot]

Anyhow, are there any AVNs/updates you'd recomment?. I feel a little out of it since I took a bit of a break from this stuff.

Not sure how long you've been away but Mythos, Alpha/Omega, A Father's Sins, Shards of the Past, Occultus: DoD, and Rise of the White Flower have all had good updates in the last 30 days or so.

 

[Raife]

To me that's the definition of story first not the quality of the story but I understand the quality should matter to some extent. Just wanted to state my opinion even if it ultimately doesn't matter

What you must understand, Dessolos old boy, is that jufot is an effete elitist.

He's the kind of man who insists that the butler require that the finger bowls be refreshed between courses. He changes into full evening dress before he decamps to his club, rather than using the powder room in the vestibule. And he would prefer beggaring himself to besmirching his honour... or the high gloss of his court shoes.

I, contra spem spero, invariably act as a man of the people -- a true tribune of the plebs. And thus, I have long advocated that games with demotic stories, or I daresay 'cheesy' stories, be included on his august list of story first games. This includes a game most beloved by plebeian onanists for its accurate representation of fraternity life in the former American colonies.

To which he invariably replies -- after a moment arrogantly adjusting the angle of his pince-nez -- that my quaint and ill-favoured American college slice-of-life game is unwelcome in his renowned repository, despite its assiduous promotion of narrative over pure prurience.

So eschew dissolution or despair, Dessolos -- your genteel complaint has my full endorsement. jufot, while undoubtedly equestrian in his tastes, is far from equitable. But perservere! Mutatis mutandis, he will deign to change his mind, as he has aforetimes. Merely subject him to the pugilistic power of your prose, the sublime cut and thrust of your wit and erudition, and he will capitulate.

 

[jufot]

I, contra spem spero, invariably act as a man of the people -- a true tribune of the plebs.

Of course, a posh, pompous snob has to avail himself to Latin wankery of all things to appear erudite to the hoi polloi. Alas, it was folly, as his true nature was confessed on these very pages, in moments past:

As for the common folk... I never claimed to be a man of the people.

 

[Raife]

Of course, a posh, pompous snob has to avail himself to Latin wankery of all things to appear erudite to the hoi polloi. Alas, it was folly, as his true nature was confessed on these very pages, in moments past:

Accusing yours truly of snobbery is like accusing a home cook of being a chef. Perspicaciously perceived, you pusillanimous popinjay.

And note, dear readers, that he has not denied his affinity for finger bowls at table. The man is probably nervily refreshing his hands even now!

 

[jufot]

And note, dear readers, that he has not denied his affinity for finger bowls at table.

Of course finger bowls are made available betwixt courses! Barn animals, we are not.

 

[Raife]

Of course finger bowls are made available betwixt courses! Barn animals, we are not.

Well he _is_ a gentleman, if nothing else, for graciously acknowledging the touch.

 

[raynarnab]

Ironically, my enjoyment of NTR almost always has zero ties with the mc.

I enjoy NTR as a secret relationship between the fmc (who is opening up to / sinking into a taboo experience), and the antagonist (who is a dominant figure who "awakens" their sexual desires)

Primarily because most NTR often end up showing the fmc liking the debauchery they're pushed into. (And since this is not real life) the presence of any initial coercion / manipulation can be ignored due to the fact that the fmc is actually into it.

Think of it as a cheap, lowbro, extremely butchered version of the exotic dish that is "sexual awakening".

Since the actual dish is so fucking rare, I'll make do with the awfully cheap knock offs (almost parodies even).

99 out of 100 times, the mc doesn't even register as a factor in my mind. On the rare occasions that the Mc is written decent enough, the experience acquires an added masochistic undertone. (Which, personally, kind of spoils the whole experience for me really.)

But, on the 1 in a millionth chance where that too is actually written well, I feel your description -- "watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe" -- fits the experience the most.

I have always wanted to hear perspectives of why its arousing for folks! This is really cool to hear and thanks very much for sharing. I always try to keep an open mind but NTR would add a bit too much masochistic taste for my enjoyment. But I appreciate this way of thinking because I have always thought that my own enjoyment of the genre was being jaded by the lens I am looking at. Your perspective provides me a whole new lens to examine the genre! Thank you!