Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

And it didn't used to be that way: Gary Cooper's character in _High Noon_... the man who knows enough about the world to be afraid and doubt themselves, but also understands their ironclad moral duty and personal responsibility, even in hopeless causes, is no longer seen as a 'real man.'

Heh, John Wayne called High Noon "the most un-American thing I have ever seen" which, when you think about it, couldn't have been a better endorsement

 

[thanks for the demos]

Definitely not the emotional equivalent of NTR. The MC wins: a better version of himself, and the love of someone worthy of loving and being loved. He certainly doesn't lose her to another or experience betrayal. That's a different kind of pain entirely.


Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

Since you took the time to answer my semi-facetious comment, might as well clear up a misconception: so, the appeal(?) of NTR is explicitly about the experience of betrayal, not loss? Fair point then, that is a quite different pain.

A genuine question to those who do like NTR stories:
Is it a masochistic appeal born from empathy with the PC, a sadistic pleasure of watching someone unworthy experiencing betrayal or more akin to, say, watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe? Or varying depending on mood / personal predilection?

There's also something strange that can happen when someone who loves you unconditionally dies: they stay with you, and can become an immense source of strength, particularly in dark times. After all, if Mr. or Ms. X thought you were worthy of love... then maybe Y or Z dark moments aren't so bad. You're never quite alone. (Not sure if this makes me sound romantic or nuts, but it's true in my experience.)

I'd agree, but that's a perspective that requires distance and reflection (possible therapy too). If the protagonist is reminiscing about that part of his life in a couple of years, he might be able to think back with thankfulness for getting a second chance he didn't deserve and experience something transforming, no matter how painful, that ultimately will have changed him for he better.

But - depending on the nature and timing of the death - I'd imagine the immediate impact is more likely to throw an already shaky vehicle completely off it's tracks (if you'll pardon the tortured car metaphor) - survivor's guilt, depression, shame about all the time they've missed because he couldn't get his head out of his own ass, etc.

Finally, no -- there's no sub-genre of tragic AVNs. How do I know? Well, (A) because jufot would have a bunch of them on his list, and (B) they would be commercial disasters.

Most players play AVNs as a sort of wish fulfillment... they don't want any pain or aggro with their porn. Some of the denizens of this list are eccentric... but most of the players on this site would not touch a tragic AVN -- or even an AVN with a tragic sub-plot -- with a barge pole.

I'd argue that many of Ebi-Hime's games (represented on jufot's list with End of an Actress and Salome's Kiss) are tragic and can't be fully enjoyed without either a) empathy with flawed characters or b) a more abstract appreciation for misery.

While I'd agree that many are more likely to look for wish fulfillment or specific kinks in their AVNs I'm increasingly hesitant of assuming to know why and in which way others enjoy the things they do / that they enjoy them for similar reasons as mine.

So I'll let jufot answer for themself. @ jufot: Mind to reiterate? What do you specifically like about Ebi-Hime's stories (and other tragic AVNs if you can think of more good examples, whether they constitute their own subgenre or not)?
Empathy, misery - masochistic/sadistic?, catharsis? Their approach to an unusual subject matter (for AVNs), all of the above, something else entirely, non-generalizable and specific to each story?

Also, is Salome's Kiss the emotional equivalent of NTR (since it actually is about betrayal)?

 

[Raife]

But - depending on the nature of the death, I'd imagine the immediate impact is more likely to throw an already shaky vehicle completely off it's tracks (if you'll pardon the tortured car metaphor) - survivor's guilt, depression, shame about all the time they've missed because he couldn't get his head out of his own ass, etc.

I agree with you entirely: I said 'can' in relation to such losses, rather than 'do.' The analogy I sometimes use is the difference between brittle iron and steel. They both contain the same basic element, but a little additional carbon, heat and time, and working make the latter much, much stronger.

You're right that some terrible experiences can shatter a person; this is the sort of experience that seems to get the most media attention these days. Less noticed is the fact that some people, for rather idiosyncratic reasons, can derive immense mental strength, resilience and fortitude from the most appalling losses.

I'd love to see the latter explored more in games, particularly in LI roles. Heavy blows can shatter iron... but they can also shape it into steel.

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

A genuine question to those who do like NTR stories:
Is it a masochistic appeal born from empathy with the PC, a sadistic pleasure of watching someone unworthy experiencing betrayal or more akin to, say, watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe? Or varying depending on mood / personal predilection?

Ironically, my enjoyment of NTR almost always has zero ties with the mc.

I enjoy NTR as a secret relationship between the fmc (who is opening up to / sinking into a taboo experience), and the antagonist (who is a dominant figure who "awakens" their sexual desires)

Primarily because most NTR often end up showing the fmc liking the debauchery they're pushed into. (And since this is not real life) the presence of any initial coercion / manipulation can be ignored due to the fact that the fmc is actually into it.

Think of it as a cheap, lowbro, extremely butchered version of the exotic dish that is "sexual awakening".

Since the actual dish is so fucking rare, I'll make do with the awfully cheap knock offs (almost parodies even).

99 out of 100 times, the mc doesn't even register as a factor in my mind. On the rare occasions that the Mc is written decent enough, the experience acquires an added masochistic undertone. (Which, personally, kind of spoils the whole experience for me really.)

But, on the 1 in a millionth chance where that too is actually written well, I feel your description -- "watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe" -- fits the experience the most.

---

[NOTE:

I've edited this post more than a couple of times now.

But, due to the "charged" nature of the subject, no matter how hard I try it feels like there's still plenty of room for misinterpretation, and honestly, it's scary how easily one little word can define how others perceive one's preferences, personality, or both.

Anyways, I hope f95 doesn't send a notification (to the quoted person or thread owner) each time I edit the post. If it did, I'm so sorry for the spam]

 

[jufot]

I'd argue that many of Ebi-Hime's games (represented on jufot's list with End of an Actress and Salome's Kiss) are tragic and can't be fully enjoyed without either a) empathy with flawed characters or b) a more abstract appreciation for misery.
[...]
So I'll let jufot answer for themself. @ jufot: Mind to reiterate? What do you specifically like about Ebi-Hime's stories (and other tragic AVNs if you can think of more good examples, whether they constitute their own subgenre or not)?
Empathy, misery - masochistic/sadistic?, catharsis? Their approach to an unusual subject matter (for AVNs), all of the above, something else entirely, non-generalizable and specific to each story?

Yes, ebi-hime is a great example and I identify with both 'a' and 'b'. I like fiction that stays with me long after I'm done with it*, which is why I prefer tragedy to comedy. It's not masochism or sadism either, more so an intense fascination with the darker corners of the human condition I like complicated characters who do bad things (by societal standards) and yet still be obviously good people. Shades of gray, if you will. End of and Actress and Salome's Kiss contain a number of such characters.

Also, is Salome's Kiss the emotional equivalent of NTR (since it actually is about betrayal)?

Well, netorare involves your lover being taken away from you but in Salome's Kiss she was never yours to begin with so it's not exactly NTR

* I still remember almost everything about the original Flowers in the Attic quadrilogy nearly two decades after reading them.

 

[realjitter]

Alright, you guys made me curious about race of life. I mean, you're talking about this

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game, right?.

The game in which the MC tells his ex wife right at the beginning that she doesn't know how to swallow?. Just wanted to make sure that there aren't 2 games out there called race of life.

Personally I would've called this game "Super daddy's brain fart adventures". I forced myself through it for a little bit until the whole hospital story arc came along which made me wave the white flag prematurely. Or, to be more in synch with the game, I had to make hasty U turn before reaching the finish line... .

This was a bit of a rough read honestly. Good animations and stuff, but.... ?

 

[jufot]

I mean, you're talking about this [...] game, right?.

Congratulations, you've identified my second most hated character!

The game in which the MC tells his ex wife right at the beginning that she doesn't know how to swallow?.

Congratulations again! Now you identified my most hated character

Race of Life is best played by mentally detaching yourself from the MC, and just pretending it's Allison's story of how she gets rid of her pest of an ex-husband.

 

[realjitter]

just pretending it's Allison's story of how she gets rid of his pest of an ex-husband.

Hmm, I haven't thought about it from that perspective =). That's some outside of the box thinking right there... Anyhow, are there any AVNs/updates you'd recomment?. I feel a little out of it since I took a bit of a break from this stuff.

 

[Dessolos]

Race of Life is best played by mentally detaching yourself from the MC, and just pretending it's Allison's story of how she gets rid of his pest of an ex-husband.

Now thinking about it after you said that that's probably a big part why Allsion is my favorite and on my top 3 LI across all AVN's because I always play AVN's detached from the MC. It made it easier for me to feel bad for her and want her to get back together with the MC. Especially because I play detached I find it hard to pick any options that are fighting back / being mean or an asshole always the nice options and the more nice options I picked I slowly started to like her more and more. I'm sure if I wasnt too nice of a person in RL and picked more mean options id hate her probally.

 

[jufot]

Anyhow, are there any AVNs/updates you'd recomment?. I feel a little out of it since I took a bit of a break from this stuff.

Not sure how long you've been away but Mythos, Alpha/Omega, A Father's Sins, Shards of the Past, Occultus: DoD, and Rise of the White Flower have all had good updates in the last 30 days or so.

 

[Raife]

To me that's the definition of story first not the quality of the story but I understand the quality should matter to some extent. Just wanted to state my opinion even if it ultimately doesn't matter

What you must understand, Dessolos old boy, is that jufot is an effete elitist.

He's the kind of man who insists that the butler require that the finger bowls be refreshed between courses. He changes into full evening dress before he decamps to his club, rather than using the powder room in the vestibule. And he would prefer beggaring himself to besmirching his honour... or the high gloss of his court shoes.

I, contra spem spero, invariably act as a man of the people -- a true tribune of the plebs. And thus, I have long advocated that games with demotic stories, or I daresay 'cheesy' stories, be included on his august list of story first games. This includes a game most beloved by plebeian onanists for its accurate representation of fraternity life in the former American colonies.

To which he invariably replies -- after a moment arrogantly adjusting the angle of his pince-nez -- that my quaint and ill-favoured American college slice-of-life game is unwelcome in his renowned repository, despite its assiduous promotion of narrative over pure prurience.

So eschew dissolution or despair, Dessolos -- your genteel complaint has my full endorsement. jufot, while undoubtedly equestrian in his tastes, is far from equitable. But perservere! Mutatis mutandis, he will deign to change his mind, as he has aforetimes. Merely subject him to the pugilistic power of your prose, the sublime cut and thrust of your wit and erudition, and he will capitulate.

 

[jufot]

I, contra spem spero, invariably act as a man of the people -- a true tribune of the plebs.

Of course, a posh, pompous snob has to avail himself to Latin wankery of all things to appear erudite to the hoi polloi. Alas, it was folly, as his true nature was confessed on these very pages, in moments past:

As for the common folk... I never claimed to be a man of the people.

 

[Raife]

Of course, a posh, pompous snob has to avail himself to Latin wankery of all things to appear erudite to the hoi polloi. Alas, it was folly, as his true nature was confessed on these very pages, in moments past:

Accusing yours truly of snobbery is like accusing a home cook of being a chef. Perspicaciously perceived, you pusillanimous popinjay.

And note, dear readers, that he has not denied his affinity for finger bowls at table. The man is probably nervily refreshing his hands even now!

 

[jufot]

And note, dear readers, that he has not denied his affinity for finger bowls at table.

Of course finger bowls are made available betwixt courses! Barn animals, we are not.

 

[Raife]

Of course finger bowls are made available betwixt courses! Barn animals, we are not.

Well he _is_ a gentleman, if nothing else, for graciously acknowledging the touch.

 

[raynarnab]

Ironically, my enjoyment of NTR almost always has zero ties with the mc.

I enjoy NTR as a secret relationship between the fmc (who is opening up to / sinking into a taboo experience), and the antagonist (who is a dominant figure who "awakens" their sexual desires)

Primarily because most NTR often end up showing the fmc liking the debauchery they're pushed into. (And since this is not real life) the presence of any initial coercion / manipulation can be ignored due to the fact that the fmc is actually into it.

Think of it as a cheap, lowbro, extremely butchered version of the exotic dish that is "sexual awakening".

Since the actual dish is so fucking rare, I'll make do with the awfully cheap knock offs (almost parodies even).

99 out of 100 times, the mc doesn't even register as a factor in my mind. On the rare occasions that the Mc is written decent enough, the experience acquires an added masochistic undertone. (Which, personally, kind of spoils the whole experience for me really.)

But, on the 1 in a millionth chance where that too is actually written well, I feel your description -- "watching a classic tragedy and experiencing catharsis after a catastrophe" -- fits the experience the most.

I have always wanted to hear perspectives of why its arousing for folks! This is really cool to hear and thanks very much for sharing. I always try to keep an open mind but NTR would add a bit too much masochistic taste for my enjoyment. But I appreciate this way of thinking because I have always thought that my own enjoyment of the genre was being jaded by the lens I am looking at. Your perspective provides me a whole new lens to examine the genre! Thank you!

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

I have always wanted to hear perspectives of why its arousing for folks! This is really cool to hear and thanks very much for sharing. I always try to keep an open mind but NTR would add a bit too much masochistic taste for my enjoyment. But I appreciate this way of thinking because I have always thought that my own enjoyment of the genre was being jaded by the lens I am looking at. Your perspective provides me a whole new lens to examine the genre! Thank you!

Glad to hear it helped it a little

Of course, I don't know the specifics of how others enjoy the genre (tag?). As, when it comes to NTR, I've only seen people saying they like/love it, but never expand upon WHY they like it.

So, I'm just as blind about how the larger part of the fandom enjoys it.

 

[Darksoul6565]

CYOA/IF REC: I THE FORGOTTEN ONE.

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

Strong recommendation for Shards of the Past. I was already intrigued by the first chapter, but chapter 2 was surprising in a way I didn't see coming, and now I'm properly invested.

It's a medieval looking fantasy adventure that's written beautifully. The dev has lofty goals and has his head on straight. He's NOT making a harem game and seems pretty confident in his plans (see my comment here).

Finally got around to playing this today, and it was really solid on so many levels.

The storytelling is so effective that -- I did not want to play any routes other than the one with my "natural" choices. (It felt like I'll be doing a disservice to "my" journey by peeking at other options.)

But for the sake of checking how impacting the choices actually are, I did speed run through some alternate choices. And I think, I made the right call earlier. The game is best enjoyed as what your own choices define it to be.

For example...

In my natural playthrough, I wondered if there was a bit of rashomon effect with Kaela and Caleb, where Branson only saw what he wanted to see.

But when I checked out some of the other choices, the chances of that happening came down a bit.

So, this is DEFINITELY the last time I'll be checking out the other routes. (Personally. I believe, that's a good testament to the engaging writing.)

Speaking of which, I love how Branson is a central piece to the story. The possibilities with him are endless.

My only worry with the game is if some LIs might fall for the mc too easily. That'll be like getting so close to a perfect 100, only to say "nah, 80-90 is good."

(To be fair, there hasn't been any significant signs of that happening yet. It's just an uneasy gut feeling I have. And I'd be happy if I was proven wrong.)

Still, doesn't take away from the fact that this was one of the most promising new games.

(Thanks a lot for recommending this one.)

 

[EndlessNights]

Personally I would've called this game "Super daddy's brain fart adventures". I forced myself through it for a little bit until the whole hospital story arc came along which made me wave the white flag prematurely. Or, to be more in synch with the game, I had to make hasty U turn before reaching the finish line... .

This was a bit of a rough read honestly. Good animations and stuff, but.... ?

My biggest disappointment with episode 1 was the way the game treated Lily's injury as a convenient plot device so I get why you might have bailed out when you did. You luckily managed to miss what to me was my least favorite part of the game: Jake and Cooper yukking it up in a bar as if nothing tragic had just happened (because everyone deals with grief in their own way, of course) only for Natalya to show up to offer a quickie (...because everyone deals with grief in their own way, naturally). Before Lily got hurt, I was actually really enjoying the dynamic of Jake clumsily managing his relationships with his ex-wife, current girlfriend/FWB, and his daughter. I wish there were more slice of life VNs that covered these kind of very real world scenarios. I think I would've preferred if the drama had been dialed down and Jake's racing had instead been more of a selfish, dangerous thing he chose to do to ward off ennui and try to hold on to his youth rather than a selfless thing he must do to try to save Lily's life.

While Jake's interactions with Allison, Veronica, and Lily to me tended to ring true to life more often than not, there's of course nothing terribly realistic about underground street racing being presented as some kind of quick path to millions, Lily's super futuristic medical treatment, or a class full of college girls who can barely keep their clothes on for 5 minutes straight when they're interacting with their dashing professor. I've come to view Race of Life as essentially two different stories in one. One part is silly, porny, and dramatic in a completely over the top way while the other, particularly Veronica and Allison's paths, is relatively grounded, quite interesting, and totally worth playing.

I view Veronica in many ways as the best fit for Jake. She's intelligent, caring, devoted, and yet also an absolute horndog just like her man. She's a great companion and ally, but also someone who has a lot of different aspects to her personality and who has led a colorful life. I also enjoyed seeing her try to transition the relationship from a FWB arrangement to something more serious and committed. I don't think that's being clingy or breaking boundaries necessarily...her feelings for Jake developed organically over time and she has every right to share them and ask for more. It's generally worse IMO when someone tries to turn a completely platonic friendship into something romantic which is an absolute staple plot of AVNs. If Jake isn't completely, irredeemably broken and entirely unfit for monogamy (which, granted, he very well might be), Veronica isn't someone he should get bored with. Most importantly, he also hasn't hurt her like he has Allison.

Much has already been said about Allison which I completely agree with. She is the character I root the most for and want to see "win." She's the one who is the most deserving of some happiness and stability in her life. I totally sympathize with her and understand her anger and her pain. Because I like Allison so much, it's hard to want her to get back together with Jake knowing the pain his infidelity caused her. I'm not sure he can realistically offer her happiness, stability, or anything else she deserves. At the same time, I hate myself a bit for loving seeing them together and the little moments they share, and I want to believe that there's a possibility that Jake can become a better person who won't hurt her again.

The branching in the game seems fairly significant. For instance, Jake can evidently ask four different people to accompany him to the ball which dramatically changes the event and its aftermath. I've only seen the versions with Veronica and Allison as those are the only two paths I'm playing at the moment, but I have to admit I'm a little curious about what happens if he takes Natalya and Jasmine even though I'm quite uninterested in either of those two as LIs. You can also lose the races. I'm not sure if this ever leads to a game over and I couldn't bear finding out, but it definitely seems to change the story and leads to different content. Events can also change quite a bit based on past choices. For instance, Veronica point blank asks Jake if he's still interested in Allison during their hike together if he took Ally to the ball. (The realistic way this scene and its aftermath plays out gave me even more appreciation for Vero as a character though Jake is arguably at his most clueless throughout). Choices definitely matter -- what jufot said about Jake fucking everything not bolted to the ground amused me because in my two playthroughs I've yet to see a single sex scene which didn't involve Veronica.

I can't say I share jufot's appreciation for Dr. Katzei. He's narcissistic to the point that every conversation ends up being about him, he mistreats the hospital staff, he completely lacks empathy for his patients and their families, and his care of Lily seems negligent given her bedsores. He seems to use his family connections to protect himself from the consequences of his misbehavior and potential incompetence. Like Dr. House, he might be great at his job if presented with an interesting case, but seems to be bad at some of the basic job requirements of his profession and he obviously loses interest when cases become less dramatic. I'd say William is a far worthier but still antagonistic character. He is well aware of Jake's shortcomings and points them out freely, but he's also fundamentally fair in how he conducts himself. He seems to be genuinely good at his job despite his abrasive personality.