Sorry for the mega multi-quote--I've been away for a few days.
Somehow we've ended up with another wacky brawl on the game thread over Tlaero's male MCs, who some players dislike because she writes them with rather distinctive (emotionally mature) personalities and doesn't allow tabula rasa-esque agency.
It's the same damn complaint again and again: "I want to play an alpha male stud, who is also a snowflake around any female LI who might have feelings for other guys... and I want every game to be a zero emotional commitment safe space for my harem/incest preferences, where narrative integrity is a tertiary consideration." [My response... fine, go play WVM and the 50 million other games that cater to your tastes!]
This whining, naturally, annoys poor Tlaero -- who doesn't like to be accused of hating men (by creating emotionally mature characters?!) -- and it annoys me, because I don't like to watch intelligent devs get tangled up with shitposting morons.
If "Alpha Males" truly existed, they would not be acting like these neo-Objectivist narcissists.
The strange thing that is difficult to fathom is why they don't just go to games that cater to their fantasy? Instead, like the Incest Brigade, want every game to cater to their particular interest. They're not going to like my contemporary game.
That pretty much sums up the average complaints, yeah. It's even more infuriating in this game as after each 'fail' you have a perfect explanation of the reasons why the MC (or any mature person who actually loves their partner, btw) should act as intended. They just don't get the message even though is explicitly said in one of the T&T unavoidable interactions: caring about the other's happiness above your own is the first sign of real love, which is what the game is all about (at least regarding that relationship: love is the answer even if it hurts and you could end up alone). But people want "agency" as an euphemism to ditch a character they didn't like, without even trying to understand the game's setting for that couple (they are already together because they love each other, so they should act as they do, supporting and trusting each other) nor the constraints of the overall storyarch. Well, I guess we should be used to it by now
Yes, I remember a definition of love being "when the happiness of another is an essential part of your own. I know, it sound a bit co-dependent, but that's not how it was meant. I remember it from a polyamorous person trying to explain "compersion," the concept behind taking joy in your partners joy.
Hear, hear! I echo Raife's feelings, and my wife loves your writing like I do.
One of my own definition of success is how my games will fair with those who identify as female.
I doubt it is part of a larger effort, moderation here seems too incidental for that even though it's sometimes pretty heavy-handed. Like police driving a riot van into a street and doing a drive-by shooting after getting a call about a cat stuck in a tree. They probably just acted on reports.
And some of the Alpha Snowflakes will report at the drop of a hat.
The VN strongly stresses consent, although the implementation has been criticised too, of course... The Wikipedia article says it all, really. A lot of it is impossibly high standards imo, especially for LGBT devs and games. It doesn't change that the writing is super powerful.
It's also really impressive that the dev got this much out of Ren'Py. Some of the best presentation you'll ever see in a VN. I think I've hyped it enough now.
I'll definitely have to look into that one. If anything to help hone my own craft.
Nyravrod might want to check
Make Love Not Waagh!, a fantasy romantic raceplay maledom KN, with a fully monogamous relationship. Totally cute imo despite the SM. The semi-political angle of "looking forward, not looking back" on slavery may however be disagreeable. The story is nothing super deep but it avoids a lot of the porn logic that you see in many more story-driven VNs. I don't think it will be of interest to other thread regulars.
With a title like that, is Howard the Duck involved?
I cannot understand why you seem to attract such bizarre, unjustified anger from some quarters of this hellsite... although I have a few guesses related to issues we discuss regularly on this thread.
A (substantial) segment of male players react extraordinary negatively to _any_ indication that a female LI _might_ be attracted to another man. They campaign incessantly to label any game with a female LI that fails to show robotic loyalty to the male MC as 'NTR.' In response, quite a few devs have, primarily for financial reasons, altered their projected narratives or character arcs in order to essentially write-out male NPCs that might dissuade this large segment of hyper-sensitive male players from trying their games. (My sense, Tlaero, is that the guy who started ranting on the _Chasing Beth_ thread fell into precisely this category of player.)
The net effect of this pressure has destroyed the credibility of the narratives in quite a few otherwise promising games, and reduced female LIs to two-dimensional ciphers, rather than fully-realized, credible portraits of real women.
I've already decided I'm not writing for them. I'd rather have fewer patrons than compromise my vision.
There are, of course, a few devs like you, Tlaero, who resist this dynamic and craft distinctive male MCs and female LIs (or female MCs and male LIs) that don't fit the pattern preferred by this mass of players (such players also tend to favour 'harem' games, which I find totally unrealistic and deadly dull). This allows you the freedom to create stories that evoke real emotions... I just wish there were more devs like you.
It was the lack of devs like Tlaero that inspired me to try my own hand at this thing.
I have views on the type of man who insists on unrealistic portrayals of women LI relationships... but I'll forgo sharing those here. Suffice to say that I find it difficult to be patient and conceal my contempt.
My first thought is that they have had very little interaction with women in real life. They'd rather have a Stepford Harem than have to consider having a realistic relationship.
Fortunately, there's this story-first games thread: one of the reasons jufot started it was to help muster players who favour the sort of narrative-driven games you create... both to share tips and favoured titles, but also to back devs like you (morally and financially). Please keep making games like _Chasing Beth_ and strong, brave, self-contained and deeply empathetic male MCs like Joel.
Hear! Hear! I often consider this thread a haven when I'm full of reading from the commenters who don't want story driven stories.
I recommended this thread to Avaron1974. I hope she shows up and finds it to her liking.
