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Recommending Story-first games

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Raife

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May 16, 2018
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I have a question that I'd like you folks' input on. This isn't a recommendation, but since we're now in the Off Topic area, I hope that it's okay.

Say I was going to make a game that allows you to choose whether to play as male or female.

My question is, am I better off having a gay male option that doesn't have sex scenes, or am I better off not having a gay male option at all?
Unsurprisingly, I endorse the consensus on this thread: I'd leave off the gay male option unless it has sex scenes in line with those in the other routes.

I like to play alternative routes (non-'true' or my personal favourite routes) in these games because they can reveal more about characters' personalities... when they are subjected to more negative situations, feelings of love, or different forms of stress, for example. A gay male route without sex could be interesting to play, in that respect... but it would make your game feel a bit unbalanced and... odd. It would feel like a half-gesture or 'crumbs' as Mheka says.

You've set yourself a difficult challenge, though, Tlaero in allowing players the option of a male or female MC. That essentially involves writing two different MCs, doesn't it? Quite a lot of work!
 
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Jaike

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Aug 24, 2020
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I agree with everybody else about the gay male protagonist. I think people will dislike it that the route lacks scenes. But if you want to be sure you could check with some users in the gay protagonist topic. I don't know if they will like it if you post the question in their topic but you can see who you could ask.

In fact, I'm a bit afraid that some of my recent fury might have contributed to the admin decision to move this thread, jufot. (Not that they didn't have it in for you already... :cautious:)
I doubt it did, all kinds of lists have been moved to other parts of the forum over the past few weeks. Now many have been moved back with a new flair.
 

Dragon59

Conversation Conqueror
Apr 24, 2020
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One more thing: I'm generally wary of heterosexual authors writing gay/lesbian sex scenes. I've been told by actual lesbians that they can immediately tell if a lesbian sex scene in a book/movie/game was written by a straight person or not. I have no doubt they're right.

So at a minimum, I suggest having actual gay and lesbian people read/beta test such scenes first :)
I definitely have a few women who are friends or family involved in my process. I'll be open to feedback from women on the forum as well. My contemporary game begins with three female characters and one male character. I haven't yet had the women let me know their orientation, though I have some indication of relative sex-drive. I will include a diverse cast, but that will come with time. In my steampunk game, my current focus is on the cis fem character. I do want to include options for other configurations.
That's surely right, although it's probably not limited to FF scenes. Even with MF, a man writing the female perspective or a woman writing the male perspective is suspect as well.
When I first started talking about my project, I received an explicit request to include a lesbian only path, so I really hope I do those scenes well.
It's also not limited to sex scenes. I've started a few female POV games that made me cringe so much I couldn't continue. The characters were effectively "men with breasts." And, judging from the regular feedback I get on the men in my games, I make lots of men cringe with my representations of them.

Writing something you're not is always a challenge.
I consider myself mildly dysphoric, I never fit in with male culture growing up, I'd rather I'd been born female, but there is no drive to live as a woman now--I'm just coming to accept that I'm not quite fully cis.

I hope this may help me to bridge some of those gaps in experience and perspective. I expect my male characters, like Tlero's will attract some criticism from the "self-identified alpha snowflakes."
This is one of the reasons I always suggest to new developers that they should write a few shorter games first rather than starting with the super epic, incredibly ambitious game they've been dreaming of. You get better with practice, and it's nice to be able to make your mistakes, learn from them, and move on to the next thing rather than being 1/4 of the way through and having written yourself into a corner.

Tlaero
I've tried. I've really tried. I realized that working on my big polyamory network story is going to be big. I tried to find another, simpler story. I considered a couple of other stories, but they each expanded into big projects. I finally settled on a steampunk story as my palate cleanser, but it is huge too. It at least has the advantage of compartmentalized adventures.
Unsurprisingly, I endorse the consensus on this thread: I'd leave off the gay male option unless it has sex scenes in line with those in the other routes.

I like to play alternative routes (non-'true' or my personal favourite routes) in these games because they can reveal more about characters' personalities... when they are subjected to more negative situations, feelings of love, or different forms of stress, for example. A gay male route without sex could be interesting to play, in that respect... but it would make your game feel a bit unbalanced and... odd. It would feel like a half-gesture or 'crumbs' as Mheka says.

You've set yourself a difficult challenge, though, Tlaero in allowing players the option of a male or female MC. That essentially involves writing two different MCs, doesn't it? Quite a lot of work!
My ex-partner has recently identified as a form of asexual, and she countered my feeling that it would be out of place to have an ace protagonist (I will have ace characters) in an AVN. I am definitely not ready to try and make a believable and engaging AVN with an ace protagonist.

Some gender/orientation changes will probably be fairly easy. Some scenes can be re-rendered with new characters inserted into saved poses. Dialogue and other scenes will be extra work. Personally, I think it will be worth it in the long run.
 

raynarnab

Newbie
Dec 16, 2021
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My question is, am I better off having a gay male option that doesn't have sex scenes, or am I better off not having a gay male option at all?

Tlaero
If the story has a powerful impact, then you should include the character. I personally enjoy stories that make me feel emotions just like any entertainment. If you feel like you are adding the character just to provide inclusive group, that is fine as well. But if it means that the project would not move forward. Then I would say don't include the character as a choice at all. I apologize if that does not make sense. But I think for me the intent matters for why a character is being included.
 

Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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I finally settled on a steampunk story as my palate cleanser, but it is huge too. It at least has the advantage of compartmentalized adventures.
I just looked at your test render and read your description of the Steampunk game. It sounds cool. I'll be interested in trying it when you get to a point where you're comfortable showing it to people.

Tlaero
 

Dragon59

Conversation Conqueror
Apr 24, 2020
6,706
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I just looked at your test render and read your description of the Steampunk game. It sounds cool. I'll be interested in trying it when you get to a point where you're comfortable showing it to people.

Tlaero
Thank you! I did another Steampunk render. I decided on the Cis female character, her mother, and a mysterious recurring character. This scene may or may not appear in the actual game. It started when I was casting models for the mother, Lady Wodencroft and gained a life of its own.
LoG Time Paradox 1a.png
I need to add this to my Patreon and DeviantArt.
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
620
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So, because it's the new year and my partner is having a nap, I thought I'd float several themes that I'd like to see developed in story-driven adult games in 2022:
  • Trust/family. One of the many things that I love about _Hillside_ is that it seems to be exploring issues of trust. What alchemy transmutes a stranger into family... someone you would die for? It's a slow process... and when it happens, it's sort of miraculous. When does the former stranger's life become even more precious to you than your own? When does their family become yours, as well? How does that transformation express itself in the form of sexual intimacy?
  • Personal 'code' and morality. Most people, I'm afraid to say, lack either a strict personal 'code' of behaviour or a very strong sense of morality. (Just to be clear: 'code' is a means of regulating one's conduct that has nothing necessarily to do with morality, i.e. the Mafia's omerta code or Omar's personal code in _The Wire_, while 'morality' is a clearly-defined sense of right and wrong.) Fictional characters with either of these inner compasses can be fascinating... particularly those that have both, where morality and code sometimes conflict.
  • More realistic depictions of sex/intimacy. Porhub seems to have destroyed realistic depictions of sex... I'd love to see a brave dev show it in a slightly more credible, true to life way. (Which, in my view, would be much hotter than the mechanical Pornhub-style sex Olympics aped by most games.) In particular, how sex gets better with greater intimacy and knowledge of the other partner. I'd also like to see more active, less passive, LIs (e.g. Emma in _Nothing is Forever_).
What do the rest of you think? Other ideas?
 

Wacky Woohoo Pizza Man

It's Pizza Time
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Feb 19, 2018
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I think Spaced out/Water world series should be here, its a pretty solid multi-verse/time travel plot that is self contained within the games and the sequels/prequels feel like an extension to it and is coherent.
Has actual antagonists and other things which contribute to the world building as well.
Bad memories is has pretty good and compelling characters, though the H-scenes does feel a bit forced something and feel like something shoe-horned in and not needed in the story.

I am super happy to see Mad world on the list, its underrated for how well the story is thought out, probably not as popular because the MC isn't banging someone every 5mins.
 

Nyravrod

Newbie
Aug 14, 2021
25
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Hey sorry for the long message I was offline at a friends for the holidays and just came back.
Seems like a lot happened it's nice to see more active people here :D

OMG, Sunstone was fantastic. I won't write BDSM, not because I'm morally apposed (if it's consensual, go for it) but because nothing I could do would hold a candle to that masterpiece.

Tlaero
What really got me is not even the BDSM depiction but just the absolute care and intimacy presented between the characters alongside the character developement. And on that front I consider several of your story do reach the same standard so you can definitely stand proud ^^

Oh, and another suggestion for you, jufot and Nyravrod: Ladykiller in a Bind
Thanks I'll have a look

Nyravrod might want to check Make Love Not Waagh!, a fantasy romantic raceplay maledom KN, with a fully monogamous relationship. Totally cute imo despite the SM. The semi-political angle of "looking forward, not looking back" on slavery may however be disagreeable. The story is nothing super deep but it avoids a lot of the porn logic that you see in many more story-driven VNs. I don't think it will be of interest to other thread regulars.
I have played it and enjoyed it overall, as you mention the slavery aspect was definitly a bit off for my taste but it didn't completely put me off the game. Story is overall fairly cute and simple :)

There's a reason why in most places I go on the internet, I pretend to be male. "Tlaero" is the main exception.

Tlaero
And that is quite sad. Especially here since many have mentioned how a lot of great VNs stories and characters are written by female writers. I hope that we can create more spaces like this thread here to encourage sharing and surfacing more of those work and provide a bit of a safe haven to discuss more "emotionally mature" stories.

I would suggest that's expected, and in fact a good thing. As someone with a few decades of manhood under his belt, I can confidently say that I love your men and have never found them "cringe" in any way. They are well-balanced, three-dimensional, good men. I think the reactions you get are primarily from younger, inexperienced and occasionally unhealthy minds. I wouldn't read too much into it. If anything, you're being a good role model to them :)
I can say the same, I absolutely love your men characters. It is a breath of fresh air so see multi dimentional and emotionally capable men. Keep on writing the story you love and know that many are looking forward to them with anticipation.
 
Feb 10, 2021
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I have a question that I'd like you folks' input on. This isn't a recommendation, but since we're now in the Off Topic area, I hope that it's okay.

Say I was going to make a game that allows you to choose whether to play as male or female. And say that, if you play female, you can choose straight or lesbian. Mortze is comfortable rendering sex scenes for those possibilities. He's not comfortable rendering gay male sex scenes, though.

My question is, am I better off having a gay male option that doesn't have sex scenes, or am I better off not having a gay male option at all?

I don't know if anyone on this thread is a gay male, and I'm not asking you to come out if you are. But I'm trying to figure out if it's worse to exclude gay men completely, or if it's worse to "include" them, but not treat them the same as the others (less content, etc).

Tlaero
Hi I look forward to your new game. I think you should treat all equal and if Mortze is not comfortable with designing male and male scenes you could make 2 different games one for lesbian and straight women and one for straught and gay men designed by another artist if Mortze is ok with it.

There are just not enough good female protagonist games so I am really excited. Thank you.

edit.
Your men have good personalities and depth to it.
I might become straight just because they are so lovely written.
 
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Raife

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May 16, 2018
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might want to check Make Love Not Waagh!, a fantasy romantic raceplay maledom KN, with a fully monogamous relationship. Totally cute imo despite the SM. The semi-political angle of "looking forward, not looking back" on slavery may however be disagreeable. The story is nothing super deep but it avoids a lot of the porn logic that you see in many more story-driven VNs. I don't think it will be of interest to other thread regulars.
I played and enjoyed that game some time ago, Jaike... it's genuinely good (and cute, as you say) despite the weird angle on slavery. It's a good example of how to build a world around just two protagonists and still make an interesting story. Do you have any idea what happened to the dev? They seem to have disappeared...

My mind seems to have blanked on the name of another game I wanted to try. It's a fairly conventional MF romance by a new dev that I think was well received on this thread. The dev has now embarked on a much more ambitious project with multiple potential LIs and has a Patreon page... but I've forgotten the name of the dev and their original game. I wanted to try it; if I like it, I'd probably back their new effort. Can anyone remember the name of that game or its dev?
 
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Jaike

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I played and enjoyed that game some time ago, Jaike... it's genuinely good (and cute, as you say) despite the weird angle on slavery. It's a good example of how to build a world around just two protagonists and still make an interesting story. Do you have any idea what happened to the dev? They seem to have disappeared...
The developer is still around. This post explains the current projects. One of them is a brothel sim with a maledom orc protagonist set in the same universe but with a much darker story, again with raceplay. I'm going to assume that means no monogamy.

My mind seems to have blanked on the name of another game I wanted to try. It's a fairly conventional MF romance by a new dev that I think was well received on this thread. The dev has now embarked on a much more ambitious project with multiple potential LIs and has a Patreon page... but I've forgotten the name of the dev and their original game. I wanted to try it; if I like it, I'd probably back their new effort. Can anyone remember the name of that game or its dev?
You could be thinking of Terminus Reach: Sentinel as the first game, although the relationship is not that conventional, and Sorcerer as the second. Or you are thinking of Defending Lydia Collier as the more conventional game (there are multiple potential LIs but you can't catch them all) and The Manifest: Shadows over Manston as the more freewheeling one (some LIs do combine), but The Manifest is actually the older release. My last guess, it could be Haley's Story and The Taming of the Brat, but I don't think that's by a very new dev and I don't think that Haley's Story was liked a lot here.

At least those are my guesses.

With a title like that, is Howard the Duck involved?
No, it's supposed to be orcish for "war"... I'm gonna guess that's after Afro-American English but Brits may nonetheless be pleased to find out that RP is considered orcish...
 
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Raife

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No, it's supposed to be orcish for "war"... I'm gonna guess that's after Afro-American English but Brits may nonetheless be pleased to find out that RP is considered orcish...
I actually thought it was a reference to that Churchill quote that "jaw-jaw is always better than war-war" but who knows what was going on in the dev's mind!
 
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Raife

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May 16, 2018
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You could be thinking of Terminus Reach: Sentinel as the first game, although the relationship is not that conventional, and Sorcerer as the second. Or you are thinking of Defending Lydia Collier as the more conventional game (there are multiple potential LIs but you can't catch them all) and The Manifest: Shadows over Manston as the more freewheeling one (some LIs do combine), but The Manifest is actually the older release. My last guess, it could be Haley's Story and The Taming of the Brat, but I don't think that's by a very new dev and I don't think that Haley's Story was liked a lot here.
Those are all good guesses, but it wasn't one of those. It was a simple game about a guy and his longtime friend becoming something more. Quite short... and from a new dev who I believe is still in University (or perhaps grad school). I just can't remember... it's making me nuts.

I wanted to throw some cash their way... not least because I can still just about remember what it was like to be so broke in grad school that all I could afford to eat was spaghetti and concentrated orange juice... :eek:
 

Raife

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May 16, 2018
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Raife

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May 16, 2018
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Ah, now I remember! You are talking about A Date With Emily. It made an impression due to its... less than realistic depiction of female anatomy :)
So... the bad news is that RobertD's new effort is a harem game. As we've discussed a million times before, harem-tagged games just aren't conducive to credible/believable plots or characters, UNLESS:
  • The setting is radically different from our own world (fantasy, sci-fi) and an effort is made to explain why, in that world, those relationships have a social validity and logic that fits the world and the characters; OR
  • The characters enter into a conscious poly relationship (in a version of our world) and the dev bothers to explain why/how this fits the characters' personalities and worldviews.
The trouble is, of course, that both of these scenarios require considerable effort and adept writing/character building on the part of the dev... so it's almost _never_ carried off in a credible way. Instead, we head down the primrose path of porn logic... which can be fun/amusing, but almost never produces meaningful or well-written games.

What's particularly disappointing about RobertD's choice is that he's capable of sketching three-dimensional characters, and understands that sex consists of more than just the act itself: there was a nice hint of eroticism in his short Emily game. To throw that promising talent into creating yet another harem game is, well, not great.
 

Zalmoxys

New Member
Dec 7, 2021
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Great list btw. Played like 70% of them already and i would like to add several games.
First of all is Artemis. Is in top 3 for me.
https://f95zone.to/threads/artemis-v0-2-1-digi-b.77680/
Then is Above the clouds. I laughed so hard playing it.
https://f95zone.to/threads/above-the-clouds-v0-4-final-mundo-games.79758/
Another one is Life happened. Great story and music.
https://f95zone.to/threads/life-happened-v0-4-3-kinky-shop.52091/
And easy game is Melody. Is more a romantic game with different endings.
https://f95zone.to/threads/melody-v1-00-extras-mrdots-games.10668/
Another games with good story (in my opinion) are:
Chasing sunsets. Great game and story
https://f95zone.to/threads/chasing-sunsets-v0-5b-stone-fox-studios.62625/
Something to write about: The author and Unbroken - are from the same dev.
https://f95zone.to/threads/something-to-write-about-the-author-ch-7-1-stwadev.48868/
https://f95zone.to/threads/stwa-unbroken-pt-2-stwadev.85108/
Derealization - still an early release but looks good.
https://f95zone.to/threads/derealization-v0-0-2-greenish-purple.82027/
Bare witness - very good quality renders and story is pretty good.
https://f95zone.to/threads/bare-witness-ch-3-alterworlds.79512/
Not played yet but the premise looks good:
https://f95zone.to/threads/deliverance-ch-xvii-1thousand.36263/
https://f95zone.to/threads/going-rogue-ch-3-ker.92601/
https://f95zone.to/threads/abroad-v1-0-0-neoknow.93963/

I've tried not to put games that are already mentioned in this thread.
And sorry if my english is not good but i'm not a native speaker.
Have fun playing!
 
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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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I've tried not to put games that are already mentioned in this thread.
Thanks for sharing your list! Some of these have indeed been discussed on this thread, you might enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on them. I do see a few I don't recognize, so I'll definitely check those out :)
 
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