Recommending Story-first games

[Birdnman993]

Any FMC game that have attractive older man who is not a creepy old pervert? Dilf tag have mostly hobos/ugly bastards and I avoid them like plague.

Thinking quickly, the only thing that comes to mind is Black Diamond, which I think fits what you're looking for, but unfortunately the game died.

At Naughty Lyanna there is a director who fits what you're looking for, but the content is very limited, the game is mostly about lesbians.

For more examples I would have to do a deeper search, but it's not something I see a lot of, for some reason the ones who dominate the scene are fat, ugly, manipulative old men.

I used to like it, but the forced submission sections, that happen on all routes, were too much for me, especially cause some of those were iirc rape with sex toys.

There are many things that are not pleasant, it is undeniable, but I try to see them as obstacles in the path of the FMC that it has to overcome to emerge victorious. If there is one thing I would have liked to change, it is the way it is treated by the Helios; I would have liked to be able to prioritize their well-being.

I think Seeds of Chaos (solid story focused game actually) is the only one that does it actually well. It's driven by the person getting "corrupted" and it's portrayed as them becoming their full self instead of just becoming a worse person or changing themselves for some misogynist sex thing

I really liked it when I played it years ago, I completed it up to the invasion of the city and the game died there for me, now they only release sexual scenes and more characters without advancing the plot, it's a shame.

 

[Geigi]

Thinking quickly, the only thing that comes to mind is Black Diamond, which I think fits what you're looking for, but unfortunately the game died.

At Naughty Lyanna there is a director who fits what you're looking for, but the content is very limited, the game is mostly about lesbians.

Thank you nevertheless, but the new game in the making Scarlett Steele will have a handsome older man as a love interest!

 

[UnkownRoboCommie]

Seeds of Chaos sure has ambition with its plot. I think its story value suffers from the grimdark worldbuilding, but I'm picky with that. And it's better than the Book of Bondmaids. And it's pretty much all about cheating, netorase or netorare.

I'd pretty strongly disagree with this section? There are NTR paths, and the game starts with an option to disable anything that could be considered it (done because the devs got deathreats about it) but the game isn't about any of those things. One could I suppose argue that it's cheating because the two protagonists are married and have sex with other people, but that never turns into a cheating arc or even references the idea or what have you unless you intentionally destroy thier relationship by having Rowan be a dickhead. Their just two people who are married and have alot of sex with a variety of people. The singular only time outside of the specific and hard to get "destroy thier relationship" path that anything of the sort is even mentioned is very clearly about emotional intimacy

I wouldn't call it grimdark? Seems kinda just general if more unique then is standard for these games (which tend to be very paint by numbers with thier lore) midevial fantasy

 

[Tlaero]

Ain't that the fucking truth. It speaks volumes about the AVN ecosystem that only women developers seem capable of creating "safe" FMC games.

I feel that this is more a reflection on the player base than the developers. In my experience, the vast, vast, vast majority of AVN players are males who are not interested in playing as a female character. The next largest player segment is lesbian females. Then males who are willing to play as females. I've only run into a few heterosexual females who play, and most of them play with their spouses/significant others, so they're fine playing as the male. (I have a blind spot with gay men, though, because my artist doesn't want to make those scenes.)

As far as I can tell, I was the only heterosexual female to play those paths in Toro 7. (Though I know that people from the second and third group above played them. And I seriously appreciate you for it!)

It's hard to argue that we should spend more time making non-lesbian FMCs when the market for them is so small.

Contrast this to romance novels, where the vast majority of the customer base is heterosexual women. It's not a surprise that those novels get a lot more good female protagonists.

I do not believe that only female developers can make reasonable female driven games. I just think that most of the men who try are, themselves, in the first camp. So they don't make female protagonists. They make "Men with breasts." And, again, given the player base, that's probably the right choice, however much I personally don't like those games.

Tlaero

 

[jamdan]

There are lots of 2D FMC games which are made for women/females. Which are in a genre called otome.

There are hardly any of those for 3D games though. Like has been said, the vast majority of 3D games are made for men. Whether they have male MC's or FMC's.

 

[FatGiant]

I feel that this is more a reflection on the player base than the developers. In my experience, the vast, vast, vast majority of AVN players are males who are not interested in playing as a female character. The next largest player segment is lesbian females. Then males who are willing to play as females. I've only run into a few heterosexual females who play, and most of them play with their spouses/significant others, so they're fine playing as the male. (I have a blind spot with gay men, though, because my artist doesn't want to make those scenes.)

As far as I can tell, I was the only heterosexual female to play those paths in Toro 7. (Though I know that people from the second and third group above played them. And I seriously appreciate you for it!)

It's hard to argue that we should spend more time making non-lesbian FMCs when the market for them is so small.

Contrast this to romance novels, where the vast majority of the customer base is heterosexual women. It's not a surprise that those novels get a lot more good female protagonists.

I do not believe that only female developers can make reasonable female driven games. I just think that most of the men who try are, themselves, in the first camp. So they don't make female protagonists. They make "Men with breasts." And, again, given the player base, that's probably the right choice, however much I personally don't like those games.

Tlaero

When I play a FMC, I don't want to play a "Man with breasts". I am actually and definitively trying to roleplay a woman. Do I know how? Probably not. That's exactly why I want to do it.

Then what do I get? Something that is barely human, much less a Woman. Your games and a few others are the delightful exception Tlaero.

Even good MMC games, have women that behave as psychotic sex addicts on crack. Is this even attractive? Maybe to some.

Let's even go with the Lesbian FMC. I confess that my exposure to real lesbians is kinda small, I do have a lot more exposure to bi-sexual males and females. I did talk to a few lesbians, unfortunately not for a long enough time to build enough trust to broach their sex lives. Or sex in any shape or form. None of them acted like they were constantly on the prowl, on the hunt, waiting for any opportunity to get with another girl, or convert one, or whatever. That kind of behavior I expect from immature incels, or males with serious developmental issues.

I know that it is a rather vain goal to hope that people that think of the AVN medium as a way to write porn, that they will be able to deviate from tropes and schemes established by the porn industry. Calling it Adult entertainment is a misnomer that hurts my brain. So, writing an AVN with credible, interesting, relatable characters, of whatever gender, is rare. Probably rarer than AVN's with decent enough writing, not even to mention, a story that actually works.

This problem, I think, stems from what people think the A in AVN stands for, Adult, as in the Porn Industry abuse of it, or FOR Adults as in with mature and involving themes and stories. I know that there is a market for both, the second, tho, is rarely available, and with FMC? It's almost impossible to find.

I do try many FMC stories, always hoping...

Peace

 

[Geigi]

There are lots of 2D FMC games which are made for women/females. Which are in a genre called otome.

Unfortunately, not many for adults and 18+ with explicit cgs and text. Most of those are from western indie devs, since Japanese translated ones are barely there(I don't think there's even 10 of them). Meanwhile, every day there's a new hentai/eroge for men.

 

[Dessolos]

When I play a FMC, I don't want to play a "Man with breasts". I am actually and definitively trying to roleplay a woman. Do I know how? Probably not. That's exactly why I want to do it.

Then what do I get? Something that is barely human, much less a Woman.

So much this I admit I haven't delved in and tried to many FMC games. But they are the only games I find I can immerse myself and roleplay and play base of how I would want my MC to act in a situation. Instead of picking choices base on what is fun , what path that save is for etc.

Even if the game is a Female corruption game but the MC isn't hooking up left and right from the start ( slow burn) but able to shape your MC and decide if you want to make them corrupt or not. I don't mind as I am still able to feel like I can somewhat roleplay a female MC since I can shape my MC to a small degree. ( I play one such game)

 

[Canto Forte]

We have to realize the devide in how good female heroines get written in tomes like LOTR or GoT - where females in positions of power - Galadriel is not the war hero or even the queen of the elves, yet the most reverred of their power users - as opposed to Tauriel or Arwen who are either bare initiates into the arts or simple bow and arrow skilled users.

Game of Thrones is a fantastic showcase of powerful sex addicted women in positions of power - well written, well rounded in their ”child baring” corner of the plot line - yet full of hedonistic sex with everything that moves:
- Rhaenyra Targaryen - bangs everything with a pulse and her uncle (secretly marries him ) and her aunt (has lez scenes with his ”public” wife) while being the warmonger queen in wait and pumping babies like a kindergarten.
Alicent Hightower - bangs the leftovers from the one above while being the capable queen mother and pumping babies also.
Cersei Baratheon - bangs Jamie everywhere and anytime pumping out babies like a nursery - on top of being a skilled and strong queen.

Women written the rigth way do have a reason to be in the story outside of their hedonistic lust of revelling in their womanhood - a taboo that any woman is fairer and more humaine and a better care giver than any man - where she is using her pussy as her end all win all power - in which case the female heroine is simply a sex addict who goes from one porn trope to another - the ugly bastard, the old ugly bastard, the bull, the cuck, the simp - in a more rapid or more drawn out succession - mind you, there are novels, respectable novels, where women who are otherwise well written assume this role of picking and choosing their mates based on how well they fulfill a role in their web of lies and deception - by going from one man to another as a life purpose and their only skill.

The great games that Tlaero has shared with us over the years fulfill the requirement very well - when she is in the story for something - anything else than the man eater she could be, simply based on the society taboo of what her super-powers are when compared to men - such a heroine could fit literally any plot - LAra Croft, Leia, Galadriel, Amidala - even queen mother - where boring power games based on extensive conversations could hold the plot while giving her a fantasy sex addiction where she would keep male and females courtesans to fill in the ”Adult” requirements of showing a young adult woman in her prime fulfilling her carnal urges on top of getting her mission as a warrior, princess, rebel leader, senator going strong also.

Problem is - who would play such a game?

Even if the game is a Female corruption game

Meanwhile, every day there's a new hentai/eroge for men.

This problem, I think, stems from what people think the A in AVN stands for, Adult, as in the Porn Industry abuse of it, or FOR Adults as in with mature and involving themes and stories. I know that there is a market for both, the second, tho, is rarely available, and with FMC? It's almost impossible to find.

I feel that this is more a reflection on the player base than the developers.

Oppenheimer had literally every woman on screen leaving son and husband and life behind to shag Cillina Murphy - the sex addict nerd banging everything from the alluring and fantastic wife of his biggest and most loyal supporter, behind his back, to simply shoving his own son into the hands of another long time supporter of his - all so he can waste no time in his life apart from sex and the power games he liked to play with his fellow scientists.

 

[Jaike]

Ain't that the fucking truth. It speaks volumes about the AVN ecosystem that only women developers seem capable of creating "safe" FMC games.

Well, I know some lesbian protagonist games probably made by men that are safe. Often where you choose the protagonist's gender, so it has a lesbian protagonist or a straight male protagonist. Usually they're porny and they have "men with tits" like you'd expect, sure, but no rape scenes with male characters because those devs aren't interested in duplicating that shit for the male protagonist branch.

Normal FMC trope is that she ”corrupts” the unsupecting younger dumb lass who is never any wiser.
Lez FMC are always aggressive to their spouses - it is how they get them to submit to them.

I have no idea what female protagonist games you play, and while I know a few that fit this, most certainly don't.

I'd pretty strongly disagree with this section? There are NTR paths, and the game starts with an option to disable anything that could be considered it (done because the devs got deathreats about it) but the game isn't about any of those things. One could I suppose argue that it's cheating because the two protagonists are married and have sex with other people, but that never turns into a cheating arc or even references the idea or what have you unless you intentionally destroy thier relationship by having Rowan be a dickhead. Their just two people who are married and have alot of sex with a variety of people. The singular only time outside of the specific and hard to get "destroy thier relationship" path that anything of the sort is even mentioned is very clearly about emotional intimacy

Maybe the core content of the game has widened after I played it, but I checked the guide after I quit it and I feel what I wrote described what was in the guide then well. Or maybe this gets down to the definition of cheating, but Rowan and Alexis are shown as married while nothing is said that they're in an open marriage. And an open marriage sure isn't an obvious fit either for what looked like a pretty patriarchal fantasy setting, or just about any premodern complex agricultural society really, though for this style of fantasy that could assume too much. And if it isn't said it's an open marriage (or any committed relationship) the default should imo be to assume it's closed.

I didn't say anything about cheating arcs though, because I didn't check for any arcs.

I wouldn't call it grimdark? Seems kinda just general if more unique then is standard for these games (which tend to be very paint by numbers with thier lore) midevial fantasy

Well it's a fantasy game that's obviously inspired by ASoIaF and (worse) GoT, where Macchiavellian statecraft is teleported to a vaguely vassalage-based context where that doesn't really work (basic historical cynicism). And no, that isn't a claim that vassalage-based political orders weren't oppressive, they were. And then the MC is captured, tortured and pressed to serve 2 entitled edgy demon kids, and there are different flavours of corruption. That makes it grimdark in my book, and it sure fits my "problems with grimdark fantasy".

I feel that this is more a reflection on the player base than the developers. In my experience, the vast, vast, vast majority of AVN players are males who are not interested in playing as a female character. The next largest player segment is lesbian females. Then males who are willing to play as females. I've only run into a few heterosexual females who play, and most of them play with their spouses/significant others, so they're fine playing as the male. (I have a blind spot with gay men, though, because my artist doesn't want to make those scenes.)

As far as I can tell, I was the only heterosexual female to play those paths in Toro 7. (Though I know that people from the second and third group above played them. And I seriously appreciate you for it!)

It's hard to argue that we should spend more time making non-lesbian FMCs when the market for them is so small.

Games with grounded female protagonists and male LIs sure aren't where the money is. No doubt about that.

But I think the group of men who play female protagonist games is a lot bigger than the group of lesbian players. Only a minority of games with the female protagonist tag have the lesbian tag. Tho both tags include games with a male primary MC. And a lot of those aren't even true lesbian games or even just games with purely FF paths. From another angle, the male playerbase of female-protagonist games seems big enough to make most of those games fall in the corruption genre or corruption adjacent.

There are lots of 2D FMC games which are made for women/females. Which are in a genre called otome.

Aren't a lot of otome pretty much "not adult" tho?

 

[Tlaero]

Games with grounded female protagonists and male LIs sure aren't where the money is. No doubt about that.

But I think the group of men who play female protagonist games is a lot bigger than the group of lesbian players. Only a minority of games with the female protagonist tag have the lesbian tag. Tho both tags include games with a male primary MC. And a lot of those aren't even true lesbian games or even just games with purely FF paths. From another angle, the male playerbase of female-protagonist games seems big enough to make most of those games fall in the corruption genre or corruption adjacent.

Without histograms etc, it would be hard to tell for sure. But I'm certainly not going to track my players like that. Especially in this genre, that would be an unacceptable violation. So my data is anecdotal, although I have a lot of it.

Something I wonder, though, is whether men who are willing to play a female MC are more comfortable playing a lesbian than a heterosexual woman. In lesbian games, they're still working to build a relationship with a woman. I wonder if that is easier to take than to be trying to pick up men.

Tlaero

 

[FatGiant]

are more comfortable playing a lesbian than a heterosexual woman.

This is exactly it for me. Exactly.

I am sorry. I simply can't put myself in the role of a female looking for men. I've tried. Many times. It never works for me. I fail constantly. The closer I can get is with a Trans character, and even that doesn't work every time.

I simply can't find men attractive.



Peace

 

[Raife]

Something I wonder, though, is whether men who are willing to play a female MC are more comfortable playing a lesbian than a heterosexual woman. In lesbian games, they're still working to build a relationship with a woman. I wonder if that is easier to take than to be trying to pick up men.

I suspect that you're on to something here: many, perhaps most, hetero male players would find it easier to play a lesbian MC.

The factor at work here is self-insertion: many, many players do this, to some degree, in AVNs. Quite a lot of male players like to play an idealized (at least in sexual terms) version of themselves; in the same vein, some of these players have an easier time role-playing with female LIs. A lesbian MC might serve as a bit of a 'compromise' for players with these preferences.

Personally, I treat most story-first AVNs as something more akin to a novel. I don't necessarily identify the MC with myself at all, which makes it quite easy to play female MCs, as well as male MCs with interesting/flawed/unattractive personalities like Edward in _Corporate Culture_. But I'd be willing to bet that most heterosexual male players take a different approach.

 

[Geigi]

I suspect that you're on to something here: many, perhaps most, hetero male players would find it easier to play a lesbian woman MC who has female LIs.

The factor at work here is self-insertion: many, many players do this, to some degree, in AVNs. Quite a lot of male players like to play an idealized (at least in sexual terms) version of themselves; in the same vein, some of these players have an easier time role-playing with female LIs. A lesbian MC might serve as a bit of a 'compromise' for players with these preferences.

Personally, I treat most story-first AVNs as something more akin to a novel. I don't necessarily identify the MC with myself at all, which makes it quite easy to play female MCs, as well as male MCs with interesting/flawed/unattractive personalities like Edward in _Corporate Culture_. But I'd be willing to bet that most heterosexual male players take a different approach.

They prefer a bisexual FMC and watch her both with men and women...or with some other species too.

 

[Raife]

Well it's a fantasy game that's obviously inspired by ASoIaF and (worse) GoT, where Macchiavellian statecraft is teleported to a vaguely vassalage-based context where that doesn't really work (basic historical cynicism).

I love it when Jaike posts, and I _especially_ love it when she posts to trash a game's political science. (She's right, as usual, in this case.)

_Seeds of Chaos_ fascinates me because its such a mess. It's as if the dev took about 27 different ideas for a game (including some excellent concepts), dialled the ambition to 100, added every possible fetish, and stuck it in a blender. The result is a sort of glop. There are some appealing chunks, but it's mostly goo.

It's an almost perfect example of what happens to a game a Dev's initial concept and ambition is too huge, when it tries to be all things to all players, and when the story loses focus/has too many subplots. It's like _The Name of the Wind_ in the form of an AVN.

 

[Raife]

Most of them have said that they don't care. They prefer a bisexual FMC and watch her both with men and women...some other species too

I don't disagree -- that's another subset of male players. How big do you think it is, relative to the self-inserters? Or do they overlap?

 

[Canto Forte]

My opinion is that it fits perfectly with the criteria of this thread.

Spoiler: Here is the why:

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I don't know how well it fits the critera for this thread, but I really like it.

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This game also ended. This game borrowed heavily from John Constantine, The Matrix and Fight Club, but it chose to constantly punish MC with total nothingness end of life amounting to absolute void - so much so that the universe literally ends around MC before he gets to ceremoniously immagine himself into a Temple of Cassius - the man who understood everything and the guy who made it into the other universe - where MC would die.

The whole plot in the end is that the universe already died when MC looses all memories about anything then gets told to go and die in the temple of Cassious, after being told that guy had actually transcended into the other universe, but MC would die.

Why would anyone already living in a dead universe want to die again ??? Why would anyone who dies painfully all throughout his life go through another death when he is not having any concept whatsoever about anything at all?

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MC is utterly alone .. everyone has died literally in his presence and there is nothing to live for. Absolutely nothing.
MC does not remember anything and anyone. Only way to justify going to the temple to die again is the 100 years he gets with the only girl anyone manages to save - the savior is Chaos, by the way - not Order, not the mayor, not the angels, not the demons, not the devils, not the Etherium - Chaos is the only one greeting MC with the only rational option for MC.

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Remember MC had already chosen Chaos when Muriel decided to go loose her wings and angelhood for MC, so the only option on the table coming from absolute nothingness and going to absolute nothingness is the 100 years of bliss with someone who loves you.

 

[noping123]

I don't disagree -- that's another subset of male players. How big do you think it is, relative to the self-inserters? Or do they overlap?

I can give you another category, which I fall into. I don't play FMC games for the same reason I don't make them - I'm not female. Now obviously at first look that statement looks ridiculous but I promise there's sense to it.

Because I'm not female, I find it difficult to try and view things through a female perspective - which depending on the situation could be identical to mine, or very very different. I won't write a female perspective because I'm too concerned with getting it wrong (Since after all, the only experience I have to draw on is my own) - and I don't want to play a female MC, because either it will be poorly written and defeat the point, or it will be well written, and I feel like I won't really get it.

Personally considering I make games, I spend way too much time looking at dicks to be concerned with who or what is fucking who, so it comes down to "How well am I able to understand this character" - and the further from my own experiences that is, the more difficult that becomes.

 

[kotte]

Because I'm not female, I find it difficult to try and view things through a female perspective ... I don't want to play a female MC, because either it will be poorly written and defeat the point, or it will be well written, and I feel like I won't really get it.

This is such an interesting opinion that I totally disagree with. I totally get the "I won't try to write a female MC" part, I wouldn't either.
But when it comes to consuming a piece of work, especially if it's well written, I love the fact that I get to experience something that I would never do IRL.
Ever since I learnt to read, it has amazed me how I can read a book and enter a different universe. I can see through the eyes of someone very much different from myself, and add that to my knowledge of the world.

 

[boobsrcool]

I spend way too much time looking at dicks

Nice