Recommending Story-first games

[Canto Forte]

Well ... Tlaero started the gaming career with exclusive female perspectives and enjoys a very credible fame for writing quite compelling girls that players can choose for their avatars in certain games.

From what I gathered around this place, EVAKISS who makes Our Red String and TessSadist who makes Karlssons Gambit not only identify as females with their preferrred pronouns being ”she” and ”her” - but they straight up own up to being mature women who have a unparalelled love for games and writing their own characters - males and females alike - putting the players in the driving seat of both gendered protagonists.

These amazing gamer girls are extraordinary kind human beings who enjoy sharing their outstanding works with the world.
Thhey do not shy away from letting their stories drive their imaginations and make games where feelings and actions are bolder than identities or genders.

Ultimately, writing compelling human beings with hopes and aspirations and objectives and a compelling story arc that goes through the game irrelevant of gender or identity - their works are trully marvellous.

I won't write a female perspective because I'm too concerned with getting it wrong (Since after all, the only experience I have to draw on is my own) - and I don't want to play a female MC, because either it will be poorly written and defeat the point, or it will be well written, and I feel like I won't really get it.

Everyone shoud play the games of these formidable women of gaming to enrich their lives and their emotional entertainment.
Games are not self improovement apps. Games are not building up skills for life or relationships.

Ever since I learnt to read, it has amazed me how I can read a book and enter a different universe. I can see through the eyes of someone very much different from myself, and add that to my knowledge of the world.

Women who do bad things to other women or the men in their lives do exist, female jails do exist as a consequence of this.
Writing a flawed human and being irrelevant of gender or identity when you describe their temperament and their deeds is the work of writing characters and one of the irrefutable facts of life we can find in any news article about females around the globe.

 

[kotte]

This game also ended. This game borrowed heavily from John Constantine, The Matrix and Fight Club, but it chose to constantly punish MC with total nothingness end of life amounting to absolute void - so much so that the universe literally ends around MC before he gets to ceremoniously immagine himself into a Temple of Cassius - the man who understood everything and the guy who made it into the other universe - where MC would die.

The whole plot in the end is that the universe already died when MC looses all memories about anything then gets told to go and die in the temple of Cassious, after being told that guy had actually transcended into the other universe, but MC would die.

Having supported the dev from early days up until now, it makes me very happy to see that the ending seems to fit in well with the story, that it doesn't feel rushed. I have seen it several times before, when a dev struggle to finish a game and just slap on an ending to be done with it. I know this dev had to overcome some serious hardships, but they still managed to write a last installment they can be proud of.

The reason I was hesitant to say it fits in this thread is because there is not so much of a story, more like a series of experiences. Like one long dream.

 

[Canto Forte]

Very well said! The game is a rollercoaster and it fits with the many many many threads of fate getting untangled around the time we get to enter the game ... the ending in the temple is for the players who do play to immerse and identify with MC, while the ending outside is for anyone who really lived this awesome ride - getting something for all the dissing thorughout.

The reason I was hesitant to say it fits in this thread is because there is not so much of a story, more like a series of experiences. Like one long dream.

The temple ending is actually The Matrix first and last movies combined about the life of Thomas Anderson and his alter ego hacker Neo in the Matrix - a coder living it up - literally a petty criminal getting everything he ever needed off the internet in the first one and the accomplished top coder at the biggest gaming corporation in the world in the last one - actually a fever dream for every software engineer ever.

 

[Jaike]

Without histograms etc, it would be hard to tell for sure. But I'm certainly not going to track my players like that. Especially in this genre, that would be an unacceptable violation. So my data is anecdotal, although I have a lot of it.

Eh, what's a histogram? I looked it up but it was confusing stuff about graphical statistical displays of divisions.

Anyway I don't have good data, but I do have this. The total's low, but it shows corruption preferrers are a majority. And even more anecdotal, I didn't spot any users who I know are female in the biggest group, unlike the smaller groups. Doesn't mean there aren't any there, but it suggests it's the most male-dominated group of the 3. (And that's what I'd expect.)

There are a few issues with the poll tho:

Spoiler

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I had a Survey Monkey link in there before, with 3 questions that allowed fuller answers, but I removed it after 2 problems came up with it. I think it attracted some people who didn't feel the forum poll did justice to their opinions.

So take the exact result with a grain of salt but honestly I doubt it's totally skewed.

Something I wonder, though, is whether men who are willing to play a female MC are more comfortable playing a lesbian than a heterosexual woman. In lesbian games, they're still working to build a relationship with a woman. I wonder if that is easier to take than to be trying to pick up men.

Tlaero

This is exactly it for me. Exactly.

I am sorry. I simply can't put myself in the role of a female looking for men. I've tried. Many times. It never works for me. I fail constantly. The closer I can get is with a Trans character, and even that doesn't work every time.

I simply can't find men attractive.

View attachment 4078302

Peace

I suspect that you're on to something here: many, perhaps most, hetero male players would find it easier to play a lesbian MC.

The factor at work here is self-insertion: many, many players do this, to some degree, in AVNs. Quite a lot of male players like to play an idealized (at least in sexual terms) version of themselves; in the same vein, some of these players have an easier time role-playing with female LIs. A lesbian MC might serve as a bit of a 'compromise' for players with these preferences.

Personally, I treat most story-first AVNs as something more akin to a novel. I don't necessarily identify the MC with myself at all, which makes it quite easy to play female MCs, as well as male MCs with interesting/flawed/unattractive personalities like Edward in _Corporate Culture_. But I'd be willing to bet that most heterosexual male players take a different approach.

They prefer a bisexual FMC and watch her both with men and women...or with some other species too.

I don't disagree -- that's another subset of male players. How big do you think it is, relative to the self-inserters? Or do they overlap?

There are definitely male players who're more comfortable to play a lesbian than a straight female protagonist, several users have said that directly like FatGiant here. Other male players said they're fine with a straight female protagonist in porny or corruption scenarios with men, but not with romance, dating men and all, because it feels too "gay" to date a guy like that. (And some prefer futa on female to take out the man from their porn.) Seems actual romance with a male LI is the least popular with the audience compared to FF or porny FM.

I don't think those are mostly self-inserters. My experience with male self-inserters was that most will tell you they won't play games with a female protagonist at all. I don't have numbers for that, it's just something that sometimes comes up.

 

[UnkownRoboCommie]

Well, I know some lesbian protagonist games probably made by men that are safe. Often where you choose the protagonist's gender, so it has a lesbian protagonist or a straight male protagonist. Usually they're porny and they have "men with tits" like you'd expect, sure, but no rape scenes with male characters because those devs aren't interested in duplicating that shit for the male protagonist branch.


I have no idea what female protagonist games you play, and while I know a few that fit this, most certainly don't.


Maybe the core content of the game has widened after I played it, but I checked the guide after I quit it and I feel what I wrote described what was in the guide then well. Or maybe this gets down to the definition of cheating, but Rowan and Alexis are shown as married while nothing is said that they're in an open marriage. And an open marriage sure isn't an obvious fit either for what looked like a pretty patriarchal fantasy setting, or just about any premodern complex agricultural society really, though for this style of fantasy that could assume too much. And if it isn't said it's an open marriage (or any committed relationship) the default should imo be to assume it's closed.

I didn't say anything about cheating arcs though, because I didn't check for any arcs.


Well it's a fantasy game that's obviously inspired by ASoIaF and (worse) GoT, where Macchiavellian statecraft is teleported to a vaguely vassalage-based context where that doesn't really work (basic historical cynicism). And no, that isn't a claim that vassalage-based political orders weren't oppressive, they were. And then the MC is captured, tortured and pressed to serve 2 entitled edgy demon kids, and there are different flavours of corruption. That makes it grimdark in my book, and it sure fits my "problems with grimdark fantasy".


Games with grounded female protagonists and male LIs sure aren't where the money is. No doubt about that.

But I think the group of men who play female protagonist games is a lot bigger than the group of lesbian players. Only a minority of games with the female protagonist tag have the lesbian tag. Tho both tags include games with a male primary MC. And a lot of those aren't even true lesbian games or even just games with purely FF paths. From another angle, the male playerbase of female-protagonist games seems big enough to make most of those games fall in the corruption genre or corruption adjacent.


Aren't a lot of otome pretty much "not adult" tho?

I... don't think it's inspired by Asoiaf at all? Idk maybe that's just me but I don't see it at all, in any way. Nor does it do machiavellian statecraft? Solenasia is pretty standard fantasy feudal (then again I wouldn't consider Asoiaf grimdark, though I'm not a fan of it either)

on the relationship thing, idk maybe it's because I'm Aro/Ace but it always seemed to me like since no one is taking issue with anything, and they both have sex with other people and know about it, it's kinda open by fiat, as both seem to be fine with whatever as long as it's sexual and not emotional (which they do consider to be cheating and can come up as a plot point if you want) (and they do form a textual polycule with one character at one point). Then again, I don't have the same assumptions as you do, only people I know who are in a relationship and not in a polycule of some sort are my parents and I always assumed that was because thier very co-dependent.

Someone said they got overambitous, I don't see it. There's a bunch of events and stuff yeah but the story is consistent and has been developed pretty darn far and is consistently continuing

Idk, not everything is for everyone. I always liked it because they do corruption as self driven emancipation and not the weird, nonconesque, bad corruption that alot of things tagged with it do that I hate. And the good art and writing of course


Back on topic, one can really tell when a "lesbian" game is made for and by lesbians vs straight men, and the latter are much more predominant sadly. The same is true for gay men as well, there's alot more made by and for straight women then gay men. I have hope this will change in the future now that we have more non straight people, but it'll take a while

Generally speaking if your looking for a game with a good femprotag, a good first step is to just look for something made by a woman, albiet it's rarer due to sociatel biases

 

[UnkownRoboCommie]

Back on topic for suggestions, Hardcoded is a very good game with none of the red flags we've talked about. Just a fun and very sweet game about a transfem robot. Not as much focused on long form plot as much as relationships with your friends but it does have one, and everyone is written as a real person. Art style is also very nice, got a pixel look. Very sweet and comfortable game. It's got a free demo with a fair amount of content and then a paid version with the full thing

 

[jufot]

they do corruption as self driven emancipation and not the weird, nonconesque, bad corruption

Huh, that's the first bit of info on this entire discourse that piqued my interest in this game. Maybe I should give it a go.

Back on topic, one can really tell when a "lesbian" game is made for and by lesbians vs straight men, and the latter are much more predominant sadly. The same is true for gay men as well, there's alot more made by and for straight women then gay men. I have hope this will change in the future now that we have more non straight people, but it'll take a while

It's not about being queer per se, it's just people writing stories about things they neither know nor have researched. Even in purely cis/het stories, you can always tell if the sex scene was written by someone whose IRL experience remains strictly... pixelated.

 

[GokutheG]

Idk, not everything is for everyone. I always liked it because they do corruption as self driven emancipation and not the weird, nonconesque, bad corruption that alot of things tagged with it do that I hate. And the good art and writing of course

I really don't get the self driven claim. The couple are made slaves and threatened with death if they don't help the villains in their plan for world domination. You've got to decide if you want to be the one to have sex with a defeated friend or if you should leave her to be gang raped. If you try to prevent her from being raped than it damages the mc's relationship with his wife. Now it's been a while since a played so I don't know if they've added way to sabotage their plans but I doubt it since you get an automatic game over for not progressing their plans after a certain amount of time.

 

[Geigi]

The same is true for gay men as well, there's alot more made by and for straight women then gay men. I have hope this will change in the future now that we have more non straight people, but it'll take a while

Generally speaking if your looking for a game with a good femprotag, a good first step is to just look for something made by a woman, albiet it's rarer due to sociatel biases

I will never understand why straight women prefer making BL/yaoi games for straight women, instead of making a straight FMC games for straight women.

 

[Raife]

Even in purely cis/het stories, you can always tell if the sex scene was written by someone whose IRL experience remains strictly... pixelated.

This is 100% accurate. There's much Porn Hub-inspired crap. Fantastic sex is not remotely like porn: it's more awkward, more passionate, and more vulnerable. And so much hotter.

That said, I tend to resist the idea that a good writer can't write gender/ethnicity/sexuality well, if it doesn't correspond with their own. You most definitely can, but it requires both empathy and research... in other words, a lot of _work._ And many devs aren't willing to put in the required work.

 

[realjitter]

You most definitely can, but it requires both empathy and research... in other words, a lot of _work._ And many devs aren't willing to put in the required work.

Why should they though when the majority of the audience seems to be pleased with the AVN landscape as it is.

 

[Canto Forte]

So ... identity politics here on the forum: how very unbecoming of you!
If a lez dev just uses her day to day experience and sex experience, she is hailed as a wonderful dev, despite doing jack nothing for researching how and why to portray a lez scene in angles and body to body dynamics. Her mimmicking her life is just OK by you.
On the other hand, if a trans or a man go research movie making, animations, angles and shots and lighting, they go make a fantastic scene with both lighting and shots of the action where you actually see it, as opposed to just wathicng the back or the thigh of one of the protagonists - you suddenly dismiss it outright for being, in your vengeful mind - too porny.

I tend to resist the idea that a good writer can't write gender/ethnicity/sexuality well, if it doesn't correspond with their own.

You most definitely can, but it requires both empathy and research... in other words, a lot of _work._ And many devs aren't willing to put in the required work.

Why should they

Wow!

 

[noping123]

Even in purely cis/het stories, you can always tell if the sex scene was written by someone whose IRL experience remains strictly... pixelated.

Idk about this. I think a lot of stuff is done because... it plays well with various demographics. I am thinking of one dev off the top of my head who is married, with kids, and a... let's say colorful history - but if you check their sex scenes, they're all basically ripped straight off pornhub. If you're trying to write a fully erotic story/scene/etc that's one thing - but other times you're not - maybe you're writing a romance, or a story or whatever, and the actual sex scenes are little more than... fan service I guess is the best term?

I know for me it's about 50/50 - about half my scenes are strictly from personal experience and about half are just "fuck it, let's do this!" - but I'd say the majority of them aren't what most people would consider "Well-written sex scenes" (Of all my writing capabilities I'd consider that bit the weakest) - it to me has a lot less to do with "experience" and a lot more to do with "Fucking hell this feels awkward to write". I can't imagine I'm entirely alone in that.

 

[UnkownRoboCommie]

idk how to write smut tbh, all my attempts read like thier from a medical textbook, very clinical

 

[realjitter]

Not an AVN, but a random movie recommendation this time . No porn though.....

If someone would ask me about the last movie I liked I'd probably have a hard time answering that. Like, idk, the last movie i've seen before this one was the latest Linklater movie which I thought was straight up horrible... like breathtakingly bad and boring ....

Anyhow, movie's called "Strange Darling". I didnt' know anything about it before watching, which probably adds to the experience. The movie executes "show don't tell" pretty much perfectly in my opinion, even up to the very end. Great performances all around, especially by the lead acctress. Go see it if you're able to and like the genre...

 

[Canto Forte]

For anyone who watched True detective season one or is aware of the current P.Diddy Combs media frenzy - this movie delves deep into the thrill of sparking a crazy encounter with a stranger and where it can get you - it is a power fantasy of woman controlls man via her ”charms” while man ”manhandles” the dame into situations where she adores abbandonig herself in his arms. We could even call it a poor mans Natural born killers.

movie's called "Strange Darling"

People who keep other people as slaves or pets for sex or whatever have been thrilling story paths for thrillers and horrors.
Keanu starred in one - Knock Knock, Sebastian Stan (Winter soldier) starred in one - Fresh, not to mention the Hannibal series.

 

[thanks for the demos]

There's much Porn Hub-inspired crap. Fantastic sex is not remotely like porn: it's more awkward, more passionate, and more vulnerable. And so much hotter.

Can you think of examples of VNs containing scenes like that? (if so: is it one standout scene or the tone in general?)


The few examples of 'well-written eroticism in a VN' I can think of off have all been mentioned in this thread:

Strangers on Paper - Becca's scene. Well-observed, funny, awkward and hot

Camp Klondike - did a good job of displaying awkwardness / vulnerability and the heightened sense of excitement to which the "fumbling exploration of young adults at summer camp" setting lends itself.

Intertwined - uneven, generally goes for the opposite tone: easy-going playful flirting
and good rapport.

Game of Hearts - porny, but surprisingly warmhearted, especially given the setting. An admittedly qualified recommendation, but the female leads/LIs do cover vulnerability and awkwardness (Meredith), and passion (Maxime). Kinda well-written and hot, if rather porny. bonus points for non-conventionally-attractive models with believable appeal and a rare case of ludo-narrative consonance (trying to roleplay someone with moral integrity despite it being the obviously inopportune choice has a tangible cost for dubious benefit).

 

[yossa999]

Can you think of examples of VNs containing scenes like that? (if so: is it one standout scene or the tone in general?)


The few examples of 'well-written eroticism in a VN' I can think of off have all been mentioned in this thread:

Strangers on Paper - Becca's scene. Well-observed, funny, awkward and hot

Camp Klondike - did a good job of displaying awkwardness / vulnerability and the heightened sense of excitement to which the "fumbling exploration of young adults at summer camp" setting lends itself.

Intertwined - uneven, generally goes for the opposite tone: easy-going playful flirting
and good rapport.

Game of Hearts - porny, but surprisingly warmhearted, especially given the setting. An admittedly qualified recommendation, but the female leads/LIs do cover vulnerability and awkwardness (Meredith), and passion (Maxime). Kinda well-written and hot, if rather porny. bonus points for non-conventionally-attractive models with believable appeal and a rare case of ludo-narrative consonance (trying to roleplay someone with moral integrity despite it being the obviously inopportune choice has a tangible cost for dubious benefit).

One Night Stand is a short story, but with a great description of the characters' feelings, emotions and experiences, I really liked it.

 

[Tlaero]

Can you think of examples of VNs containing scenes like that? (if so: is it one standout scene or the tone in general?)

I would argue that the Trisha path in Gemini https://f95zone.to/threads/gemini-v1-0-tora-productions.210888/ is like that.

And to a lesser extent the sex scene in the Cannon path of Saving Chloe https://f95zone.to/threads/elsaverse-omnibus-vol-1-tora-productions.90315/ is too.

Tlaero

 

[Tlaero]

Eh, what's a histogram?

In the way I'm using it here, it's a signal that is sent from your machine when something happens. For instance, if you're on Chrome, then Google keeps track of every time anyone opens the "more" menu (...) as well as which entry in it they choose. This lets them decide if there are things on the menu that no one uses, which can guide them to make changes in their code.

Importantly, these kinds of histograms are "aggregated" meaning that Google doesn't know who opened their more menu, just that, across all users of chrome, it was opened this many times.

You could imagine telemetry in a AVN that tells us how many people took which paths, or how many times they viewed the galleries, etc. It would be very helpful for knowing what the players really like, but aggregate or not, it would seem pretty creepy to have an erotic game reporting what you do in it. I suspect that people wouldn't play games that do that.

Tlaero