Recommending Story-first games

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Jun 16, 2023
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Well, I know some lesbian protagonist games probably made by men that are safe. Often where you choose the protagonist's gender, so it has a lesbian protagonist or a straight male protagonist. Usually they're porny and they have "men with tits" like you'd expect, sure, but no rape scenes with male characters because those devs aren't interested in duplicating that shit for the male protagonist branch.


I have no idea what female protagonist games you play, and while I know a few that fit this, most certainly don't.


Maybe the core content of the game has widened after I played it, but I checked the guide after I quit it and I feel what I wrote described what was in the guide then well. Or maybe this gets down to the definition of cheating, but Rowan and Alexis are shown as married while nothing is said that they're in an open marriage. And an open marriage sure isn't an obvious fit either for what looked like a pretty patriarchal fantasy setting, or just about any premodern complex agricultural society really, though for this style of fantasy that could assume too much. And if it isn't said it's an open marriage (or any committed relationship) the default should imo be to assume it's closed.

I didn't say anything about cheating arcs though, because I didn't check for any arcs.


Well it's a fantasy game that's obviously inspired by ASoIaF and (worse) GoT, where Macchiavellian statecraft is teleported to a vaguely vassalage-based context where that doesn't really work (basic historical cynicism). And no, that isn't a claim that vassalage-based political orders weren't oppressive, they were. And then the MC is captured, tortured and pressed to serve 2 entitled edgy demon kids, and there are different flavours of corruption. That makes it grimdark in my book, and it sure fits my "problems with grimdark fantasy".


Games with grounded female protagonists and male LIs sure aren't where the money is. No doubt about that.

But I think the group of men who play female protagonist games is a lot bigger than the group of lesbian players. Only a minority of games with the female protagonist tag have the lesbian tag. Tho both tags include games with a male primary MC. And a lot of those aren't even true lesbian games or even just games with purely FF paths. From another angle, the male playerbase of female-protagonist games seems big enough to make most of those games fall in the corruption genre or corruption adjacent.


Aren't a lot of otome pretty much "not adult" tho? :unsure:
I... don't think it's inspired by Asoiaf at all? Idk maybe that's just me but I don't see it at all, in any way. Nor does it do machiavellian statecraft? Solenasia is pretty standard fantasy feudal (then again I wouldn't consider Asoiaf grimdark, though I'm not a fan of it either)

on the relationship thing, idk maybe it's because I'm Aro/Ace but it always seemed to me like since no one is taking issue with anything, and they both have sex with other people and know about it, it's kinda open by fiat, as both seem to be fine with whatever as long as it's sexual and not emotional (which they do consider to be cheating and can come up as a plot point if you want) (and they do form a textual polycule with one character at one point). Then again, I don't have the same assumptions as you do, only people I know who are in a relationship and not in a polycule of some sort are my parents and I always assumed that was because thier very co-dependent.

Someone said they got overambitous, I don't see it. There's a bunch of events and stuff yeah but the story is consistent and has been developed pretty darn far and is consistently continuing

Idk, not everything is for everyone. I always liked it because they do corruption as self driven emancipation and not the weird, nonconesque, bad corruption that alot of things tagged with it do that I hate. And the good art and writing of course


Back on topic, one can really tell when a "lesbian" game is made for and by lesbians vs straight men, and the latter are much more predominant sadly. The same is true for gay men as well, there's alot more made by and for straight women then gay men. I have hope this will change in the future now that we have more non straight people, but it'll take a while

Generally speaking if your looking for a game with a good femprotag, a good first step is to just look for something made by a woman, albiet it's rarer due to sociatel biases
 
Jun 16, 2023
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Back on topic for suggestions, Hardcoded is a very good game with none of the red flags we've talked about. Just a fun and very sweet game about a transfem robot. Not as much focused on long form plot as much as relationships with your friends but it does have one, and everyone is written as a real person. Art style is also very nice, got a pixel look. Very sweet and comfortable game. It's got a free demo with a fair amount of content and then a paid version with the full thing
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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they do corruption as self driven emancipation and not the weird, nonconesque, bad corruption
Huh, that's the first bit of info on this entire discourse that piqued my interest in this game. Maybe I should give it a go.

Back on topic, one can really tell when a "lesbian" game is made for and by lesbians vs straight men, and the latter are much more predominant sadly. The same is true for gay men as well, there's alot more made by and for straight women then gay men. I have hope this will change in the future now that we have more non straight people, but it'll take a while
It's not about being queer per se, it's just people writing stories about things they neither know nor have researched. Even in purely cis/het stories, you can always tell if the sex scene was written by someone whose IRL experience remains strictly... pixelated.
 

GokutheG

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Oct 20, 2022
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Idk, not everything is for everyone. I always liked it because they do corruption as self driven emancipation and not the weird, nonconesque, bad corruption that alot of things tagged with it do that I hate. And the good art and writing of course
I really don't get the self driven claim. The couple are made slaves and threatened with death if they don't help the villains in their plan for world domination. You've got to decide if you want to be the one to have sex with a defeated friend or if you should leave her to be gang raped. If you try to prevent her from being raped than it damages the mc's relationship with his wife. Now it's been a while since a played so I don't know if they've added way to sabotage their plans but I doubt it since you get an automatic game over for not progressing their plans after a certain amount of time.
 

Geigi

Engaged Member
Jul 7, 2017
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The same is true for gay men as well, there's alot more made by and for straight women then gay men. I have hope this will change in the future now that we have more non straight people, but it'll take a while

Generally speaking if your looking for a game with a good femprotag, a good first step is to just look for something made by a woman, albiet it's rarer due to sociatel biases
I will never understand why straight women prefer making BL/yaoi games for straight women, instead of making a straight FMC games for straight women.
 
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Raife

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May 16, 2018
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Even in purely cis/het stories, you can always tell if the sex scene was written by someone whose IRL experience remains strictly... pixelated.
This is 100% accurate. There's much Porn Hub-inspired crap. Fantastic sex is not remotely like porn: it's more awkward, more passionate, and more vulnerable. And so much hotter.

That said, I tend to resist the idea that a good writer can't write gender/ethnicity/sexuality well, if it doesn't correspond with their own. You most definitely can, but it requires both empathy and research... in other words, a lot of _work._ And many devs aren't willing to put in the required work.
 

realjitter

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Jun 21, 2021
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You most definitely can, but it requires both empathy and research... in other words, a lot of _work._ And many devs aren't willing to put in the required work.
Why should they though when the majority of the audience seems to be pleased with the AVN landscape as it is.
 
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Canto Forte

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Jul 10, 2017
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So ... identity politics here on the forum: how very unbecoming of you!
If a lez dev just uses her day to day experience and sex experience, she is hailed as a wonderful dev, despite doing jack nothing for researching how and why to portray a lez scene in angles and body to body dynamics. Her mimmicking her life is just OK by you.
On the other hand, if a trans or a man go research movie making, animations, angles and shots and lighting, they go make a fantastic scene with both lighting and shots of the action where you actually see it, as opposed to just wathicng the back or the thigh of one of the protagonists - you suddenly dismiss it outright for being, in your vengeful mind - too porny.
I tend to resist the idea that a good writer can't write gender/ethnicity/sexuality well, if it doesn't correspond with their own.
You most definitely can, but it requires both empathy and research... in other words, a lot of _work._ And many devs aren't willing to put in the required work.
Why should they
Wow!
 
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Cskin Games

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Jun 24, 2021
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Even in purely cis/het stories, you can always tell if the sex scene was written by someone whose IRL experience remains strictly... pixelated.
Idk about this. I think a lot of stuff is done because... it plays well with various demographics. I am thinking of one dev off the top of my head who is married, with kids, and a... let's say colorful history - but if you check their sex scenes, they're all basically ripped straight off pornhub. If you're trying to write a fully erotic story/scene/etc that's one thing - but other times you're not - maybe you're writing a romance, or a story or whatever, and the actual sex scenes are little more than... fan service I guess is the best term?

I know for me it's about 50/50 - about half my scenes are strictly from personal experience and about half are just "fuck it, let's do this!" - but I'd say the majority of them aren't what most people would consider "Well-written sex scenes" (Of all my writing capabilities I'd consider that bit the weakest) - it to me has a lot less to do with "experience" and a lot more to do with "Fucking hell this feels awkward to write". I can't imagine I'm entirely alone in that.
 
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realjitter

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Jun 21, 2021
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Not an AVN, but a random movie recommendation this time :p. No porn though.....

If someone would ask me about the last movie I liked I'd probably have a hard time answering that. Like, idk, the last movie i've seen before this one was the latest Linklater movie which I thought was straight up horrible... like breathtakingly bad and boring ....

Anyhow, movie's called "Strange Darling". I didnt' know anything about it before watching, which probably adds to the experience. The movie executes "show don't tell" pretty much perfectly in my opinion, even up to the very end. Great performances all around, especially by the lead acctress. Go see it if you're able to and like the genre...
 

Canto Forte

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Jul 10, 2017
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For anyone who watched True detective season one or is aware of the current P.Diddy Combs media frenzy - this movie delves deep into the thrill of sparking a crazy encounter with a stranger and where it can get you - it is a power fantasy of woman controlls man via her ”charms” while man ”manhandles” the dame into situations where she adores abbandonig herself in his arms. We could even call it a poor mans Natural born killers.
movie's called "Strange Darling"
People who keep other people as slaves or pets for sex or whatever have been thrilling story paths for thrillers and horrors.
Keanu starred in one - Knock Knock, Sebastian Stan (Winter soldier) starred in one - Fresh, not to mention the Hannibal series.
 
Aug 7, 2018
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There's much Porn Hub-inspired crap. Fantastic sex is not remotely like porn: it's more awkward, more passionate, and more vulnerable. And so much hotter.
Can you think of examples of VNs containing scenes like that? (if so: is it one standout scene or the tone in general?)


The few examples of 'well-written eroticism in a VN' I can think of off have all been mentioned in this thread:

Strangers on Paper - Becca's scene. Well-observed, funny, awkward and hot :)

Camp Klondike - did a good job of displaying awkwardness / vulnerability and the heightened sense of excitement to which the "fumbling exploration of young adults at summer camp" setting lends itself.

Intertwined - uneven, generally goes for the opposite tone: easy-going playful flirting
and good rapport.

Game of Hearts - porny, but surprisingly warmhearted, especially given the setting. An admittedly qualified recommendation, but the female leads/LIs do cover vulnerability and awkwardness (Meredith), and passion (Maxime). Kinda well-written and hot, if rather porny. bonus points for non-conventionally-attractive models with believable appeal and a rare case of ludo-narrative consonance (trying to roleplay someone with moral integrity despite it being the obviously inopportune choice has a tangible cost for dubious benefit).
 

yossa999

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Dec 5, 2020
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Can you think of examples of VNs containing scenes like that? (if so: is it one standout scene or the tone in general?)


The few examples of 'well-written eroticism in a VN' I can think of off have all been mentioned in this thread:

Strangers on Paper - Becca's scene. Well-observed, funny, awkward and hot :)

Camp Klondike - did a good job of displaying awkwardness / vulnerability and the heightened sense of excitement to which the "fumbling exploration of young adults at summer camp" setting lends itself.

Intertwined - uneven, generally goes for the opposite tone: easy-going playful flirting
and good rapport.

Game of Hearts - porny, but surprisingly warmhearted, especially given the setting. An admittedly qualified recommendation, but the female leads/LIs do cover vulnerability and awkwardness (Meredith), and passion (Maxime). Kinda well-written and hot, if rather porny. bonus points for non-conventionally-attractive models with believable appeal and a rare case of ludo-narrative consonance (trying to roleplay someone with moral integrity despite it being the obviously inopportune choice has a tangible cost for dubious benefit).
One Night Stand is a short story, but with a great description of the characters' feelings, emotions and experiences, I really liked it.
 

Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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Eh, what's a histogram? :unsure:
In the way I'm using it here, it's a signal that is sent from your machine when something happens. For instance, if you're on Chrome, then Google keeps track of every time anyone opens the "more" menu (...) as well as which entry in it they choose. This lets them decide if there are things on the menu that no one uses, which can guide them to make changes in their code.

Importantly, these kinds of histograms are "aggregated" meaning that Google doesn't know who opened their more menu, just that, across all users of chrome, it was opened this many times.

You could imagine telemetry in a AVN that tells us how many people took which paths, or how many times they viewed the galleries, etc. It would be very helpful for knowing what the players really like, but aggregate or not, it would seem pretty creepy to have an erotic game reporting what you do in it. I suspect that people wouldn't play games that do that.

Tlaero
 

FatGiant

Conversation Conqueror
Jan 7, 2022
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I suspect that people wouldn't play games that do that.
At least not without a substantial level of trust being established with the Dev team.

I would allow it in your games.

But, for example (yes, it is my bette noire) I would never consider it for the Dev of Friends in Need. Or for the, now abandoned, Dev of Bitch Squad. Obviously there are more, that I would allow and many more I wouldn't... these are just examples.

This only very partially respects to the fact that I like or dislike their games, it has more to do with how I felt as a player and as a thread follower. Trust at that level, is not obtained easily, but it is lost extremely fast.

I could make a list of Dev's I would allow it to, but, I feel that it is WAY too subjective and experience driven to be useful to anyone, maybe not even to myself because of the above said volatility.

Yes, I do see how useful it would be, how much more targeted some games could be, but... :) there's a risk associated with it too. Niche creation, that could truly harm the creators ROI. Even if you were a High Volume production team, like... Oppai Man, where you can have multiple titles going, having your games appeal to smaller and smaller targeted audiences, even if increasingly more satisfying, would (IMHO) work against your overall profit. Because, let's face it, after all is said and done, Dev time, effort and the assets cost money or prevent them from obtaining it elsewhere.

I'll shut up now... :D

Peace :)
 

Jaike

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Aug 24, 2020
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I... don't think it's inspired by Asoiaf at all? Idk maybe that's just me but I don't see it at all, in any way. Nor does it do machiavellian statecraft? Solenasia is pretty standard fantasy feudal (then again I wouldn't consider Asoiaf grimdark, though I'm not a fan of it either)
There's a lot of selfish amoral political manipulation in both where it doesn't make sense for a vassalage-based setting (where power is very distributed so where there are a lot of peers and near peers to worry about). ASoIaF is the obvious choice for the source because it was kinda innovative with this. And its the 2nd most successful fantasy setting since 2000. Its influence on later fantasy and thinking about history for the uninformed public is hard to overstate.

And let's just say, that perspective puts strangely too much attention on elites when it comes to oppression. :unsure:

About grimdark, this guy's definition (from Wikipedia) fits well and should make it obvious it's valid for ASoIaF/GoT and Seeds of Chaos:
described it as fiction "where nobody is honourable and ", and as "the standard way of referring to fantasies that turn their backs on the more uplifting, visions of idealized medievaliana, and instead stress how nasty, brutish, short and, er, dark life back then 'really' was". But he noted that grimdark has little to do with re-imagining an actual historic reality and more with conveying the sense that our own world is a "cynical, disillusioned, ultraviolent place".
This hits the problem on the nail with grimdark's pretention about historical realism, and this vision of realpolitik fits behaviour in actual states way better.

on the relationship thing, idk maybe it's because I'm Aro/Ace but it always seemed to me like since no one is taking issue with anything, and they both have sex with other people and know about it, it's kinda open by fiat, as both seem to be fine with whatever as long as it's sexual and not emotional (which they do consider to be cheating and can come up as a plot point if you want) (and they do form a textual polycule with one character at one point). Then again, I don't have the same assumptions as you do, only people I know who are in a relationship and not in a polycule of some sort are my parents and I always assumed that was because thier very co-dependent.
Dunno about those other people, my guess they came after that part with the knightess. Let's say that when I played it, it wasn't communicated to the player it was open before the options came up. There sure are fantasy games that have open relationships as the default (for the MC at least) but those are obvious horniverse settings usually.

To be honest, I think my "assumptions" are more in line with how the average person thinks, even in "polygamous" societies (where most married people will still have 1 spouse anyway).

I really don't get the self driven claim. The couple are made slaves and threatened with death if they don't help the villains in their plan for world domination. You've got to decide if you want to be the one to have sex with a defeated friend or if you should leave her to be gang raped. If you try to prevent her from being raped than it damages the mc's relationship with his wife. Now it's been a while since a played so I don't know if they've added way to sabotage their plans but I doubt it since you get an automatic game over for not progressing their plans after a certain amount of time.
Yes, it went like Alexia was kidnapped, Rowan searched for her for months, then was tortured and imprisoned for months, and then forced into a "deal" with the Trumpy twins. Rare case that a game violated my "no unavoidable rape" red line for the MC as "perpetrator" of sorts or bystander, and then as victim on the "best" choice.

I didn't know it damages the relationship with his wife, but if that's right that means it isn't an open marriage.

idk how to write smut tbh, all my attempts read like thier from a medical textbook, very clinical
To be fair...

... that'd be a fetish for a lot of people too.

You could imagine telemetry in a AVN that tells us how many people took which paths, or how many times they viewed the galleries, etc. It would be very helpful for knowing what the players really like, but aggregate or not, it would seem pretty creepy to have an erotic game reporting what you do in it. I suspect that people wouldn't play games that do that.
Right, yes there have been examples where devs put tracking stuff in and that never went well. Every time there's a case when a game uses an internet connection there's a big commotion. And pirates are pretty paranoid in the best of times.
 

GokutheG

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Oct 20, 2022
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There's a lot of selfish amoral political manipulation in both where it doesn't make sense for a vassalage-based setting (where power is very distributed so where there are a lot of peers and near peers to worry about). ASoIaF is the obvious choice for the source because it was kinda innovative with this. And its the 2nd most successful fantasy setting since 2000. Its influence on later fantasy and thinking about history for the uninformed public is hard to overstate.

And let's just say, that perspective puts strangely too much attention on elites when it comes to oppression. :unsure:

About grimdark, this guy's definition (from Wikipedia) fits well and should make it obvious it's valid for ASoIaF/GoT and Seeds of Chaos:

This hits the problem on the nail with grimdark's pretention about historical realism, and this vision of realpolitik fits behaviour in actual states way better.


Dunno about those other people, my guess they came after that part with the knightess. Let's say that when I played it, it wasn't communicated to the player it was open before the options came up. There sure are fantasy games that have open relationships as the default (for the MC at least) but those are obvious horniverse settings usually.

To be honest, I think my "assumptions" are more in line with how the average person thinks, even in "polygamous" societies (where most married people will still have 1 spouse anyway).


Yes, it went like Alexia was kidnapped, Rowan searched for her for months, then was tortured and imprisoned for months, and then forced into a "deal" with the Trumpy twins. Rare case that a game violated my "no unavoidable rape" red line for the MC as "perpetrator" of sorts or bystander, and then as victim on the "best" choice.

I didn't know it damages the relationship with his wife, but if that's right that means it isn't an open marriage.


To be fair...

... that'd be a fetish for a lot of people too.


Right, yes there have been examples where devs put tracking stuff in and that never went well. Every time there's a case when a game uses an internet connection there's a big commotion. And pirates are pretty paranoid in the best of times.
From what I remember they talk and the mc let's his wife know that either he had sex with his friend or she'd get raped. The wife understood that he'd try to protect her even if the methods the demons gave weren't the best and things were going OK until she asks if he WANTED to sleep with her. That's where the damage comes from because the mc hesitates in answering the question giving her the impression that preventing the rape was just an excuse he told himself in order to sleep with someone he's attracted to.

Now there were multiple choices to shape what type of relationship they had in the past that may have influenced this or not.
 
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