Recommending Story-first games

[FatGiant]

I suspect that people wouldn't play games that do that.

At least not without a substantial level of trust being established with the Dev team.

I would allow it in your games.

But, for example (yes, it is my bette noire) I would never consider it for the Dev of Friends in Need. Or for the, now abandoned, Dev of Bitch Squad. Obviously there are more, that I would allow and many more I wouldn't... these are just examples.

This only very partially respects to the fact that I like or dislike their games, it has more to do with how I felt as a player and as a thread follower. Trust at that level, is not obtained easily, but it is lost extremely fast.

I could make a list of Dev's I would allow it to, but, I feel that it is WAY too subjective and experience driven to be useful to anyone, maybe not even to myself because of the above said volatility.

Yes, I do see how useful it would be, how much more targeted some games could be, but... there's a risk associated with it too. Niche creation, that could truly harm the creators ROI. Even if you were a High Volume production team, like... Oppai Man, where you can have multiple titles going, having your games appeal to smaller and smaller targeted audiences, even if increasingly more satisfying, would (IMHO) work against your overall profit. Because, let's face it, after all is said and done, Dev time, effort and the assets cost money or prevent them from obtaining it elsewhere.

I'll shut up now...

Peace

 

[MrPocketRocket]

Chapter 4 of Pecker PI is up. They haven't kicked it up to the top of the pile yet, but thought I'd let you know.

Cheers!

 

[Jaike]

I... don't think it's inspired by Asoiaf at all? Idk maybe that's just me but I don't see it at all, in any way. Nor does it do machiavellian statecraft? Solenasia is pretty standard fantasy feudal (then again I wouldn't consider Asoiaf grimdark, though I'm not a fan of it either)

There's a lot of selfish amoral political manipulation in both where it doesn't make sense for a vassalage-based setting (where power is very distributed so where there are a lot of peers and near peers to worry about). ASoIaF is the obvious choice for the source because it was kinda innovative with this. And its the 2nd most successful fantasy setting since 2000. Its influence on later fantasy and thinking about history for the uninformed public is hard to overstate.

And let's just say, that perspective puts strangely too much attention on elites when it comes to oppression.

About grimdark, this guy's definition (from Wikipedia) fits well and should make it obvious it's valid for ASoIaF/GoT and Seeds of Chaos:

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described it as fiction "where nobody is honourable and

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", and as "the standard way of referring to fantasies that turn their backs on the more uplifting,

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visions of idealized medievaliana, and instead stress how nasty, brutish, short and, er, dark life back then 'really' was". But he noted that grimdark has little to do with re-imagining an actual historic reality and more with conveying the sense that our own world is a "cynical, disillusioned, ultraviolent place".

This hits the problem on the nail with grimdark's pretention about historical realism, and this vision of realpolitik fits behaviour in actual states way better.

on the relationship thing, idk maybe it's because I'm Aro/Ace but it always seemed to me like since no one is taking issue with anything, and they both have sex with other people and know about it, it's kinda open by fiat, as both seem to be fine with whatever as long as it's sexual and not emotional (which they do consider to be cheating and can come up as a plot point if you want) (and they do form a textual polycule with one character at one point). Then again, I don't have the same assumptions as you do, only people I know who are in a relationship and not in a polycule of some sort are my parents and I always assumed that was because thier very co-dependent.

Dunno about those other people, my guess they came after that part with the knightess. Let's say that when I played it, it wasn't communicated to the player it was open before the options came up. There sure are fantasy games that have open relationships as the default (for the MC at least) but those are obvious horniverse settings usually.

To be honest, I think my "assumptions" are more in line with how the average person thinks, even in "polygamous" societies (where most married people will still have 1 spouse anyway).

I really don't get the self driven claim. The couple are made slaves and threatened with death if they don't help the villains in their plan for world domination. You've got to decide if you want to be the one to have sex with a defeated friend or if you should leave her to be gang raped. If you try to prevent her from being raped than it damages the mc's relationship with his wife. Now it's been a while since a played so I don't know if they've added way to sabotage their plans but I doubt it since you get an automatic game over for not progressing their plans after a certain amount of time.

Yes, it went like Alexia was kidnapped, Rowan searched for her for months, then was tortured and imprisoned for months, and then forced into a "deal" with the Trumpy twins. Rare case that a game violated my "no unavoidable rape" red line for the MC as "perpetrator" of sorts or bystander, and then as victim on the "best" choice.

I didn't know it damages the relationship with his wife, but if that's right that means it isn't an open marriage.

idk how to write smut tbh, all my attempts read like thier from a medical textbook, very clinical

To be fair...

... that'd be a fetish for a lot of people too.

You could imagine telemetry in a AVN that tells us how many people took which paths, or how many times they viewed the galleries, etc. It would be very helpful for knowing what the players really like, but aggregate or not, it would seem pretty creepy to have an erotic game reporting what you do in it. I suspect that people wouldn't play games that do that.

Right, yes there have been examples where devs put tracking stuff in and that never went well. Every time there's a case when a game uses an internet connection there's a big commotion. And pirates are pretty paranoid in the best of times.

 

[GokutheG]

There's a lot of selfish amoral political manipulation in both where it doesn't make sense for a vassalage-based setting (where power is very distributed so where there are a lot of peers and near peers to worry about). ASoIaF is the obvious choice for the source because it was kinda innovative with this. And its the 2nd most successful fantasy setting since 2000. Its influence on later fantasy and thinking about history for the uninformed public is hard to overstate.

And let's just say, that perspective puts strangely too much attention on elites when it comes to oppression.

About grimdark, this guy's definition (from Wikipedia) fits well and should make it obvious it's valid for ASoIaF/GoT and Seeds of Chaos:

This hits the problem on the nail with grimdark's pretention about historical realism, and this vision of realpolitik fits behaviour in actual states way better.


Dunno about those other people, my guess they came after that part with the knightess. Let's say that when I played it, it wasn't communicated to the player it was open before the options came up. There sure are fantasy games that have open relationships as the default (for the MC at least) but those are obvious horniverse settings usually.

To be honest, I think my "assumptions" are more in line with how the average person thinks, even in "polygamous" societies (where most married people will still have 1 spouse anyway).


Yes, it went like Alexia was kidnapped, Rowan searched for her for months, then was tortured and imprisoned for months, and then forced into a "deal" with the Trumpy twins. Rare case that a game violated my "no unavoidable rape" red line for the MC as "perpetrator" of sorts or bystander, and then as victim on the "best" choice.

I didn't know it damages the relationship with his wife, but if that's right that means it isn't an open marriage.


To be fair...

... that'd be a fetish for a lot of people too.


Right, yes there have been examples where devs put tracking stuff in and that never went well. Every time there's a case when a game uses an internet connection there's a big commotion. And pirates are pretty paranoid in the best of times.

From what I remember they talk and the mc let's his wife know that either he had sex with his friend or she'd get raped. The wife understood that he'd try to protect her even if the methods the demons gave weren't the best and things were going OK until she asks if he WANTED to sleep with her. That's where the damage comes from because the mc hesitates in answering the question giving her the impression that preventing the rape was just an excuse he told himself in order to sleep with someone he's attracted to.

Now there were multiple choices to shape what type of relationship they had in the past that may have influenced this or not.

 

[Grimnir098]

There's a lot of selfish amoral political manipulation in both where it doesn't make sense for a vassalage-based setting (where power is very distributed so where there are a lot of peers and near peers to worry about).

Could you expand more on what would make sense in a vassalage-based setting? Maybe in a PM to avoid going off-topic.
Or send me some links I can look at?

 

[Jaike]

Could you expand more on what would make sense in a vassalage-based setting? Maybe in a PM to avoid going off-topic.
Or send me some links I can look at?

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, especially the parts "vassals and bannermen" and "honor, homage and fealty".

Note it's the end of a 3-part series and that the series' aim is a little different. I'm only indirectly interested in how "historical" GoT/ASoIaF is (really fan perception of the past) and more about how consistent the worldbuilding is.

 

[UnkownRoboCommie]

I suppose I've always considered grimdark as "things are real bad" (dark) and "nothing can get better, things can only get worse" (grim). The poster child is of course 40k, which I hate (Though I'm a big fan of Age of Sigmar)

On the fuedal stuff, I think the kingdom acts about standard "fantasy fuedal", and Bloodmean of course is specifically shown in opposition to fuedalism, with a might makes right system. A fair portion of the game is about that actually, with Rowan hating the fuedal structure but also opposing the twins system.

What are some games people recommend? I'm a crazy person who plays smut games (and the same is true when I read smut) for the writing and story (aro/ace so tat probably effects it), so it's quite difficult for me to find things I don't hate for reasons that probably helped inspire this very thread :v

Out of Touch is pretty good I recall, some competent writing and actually good characters that feel like people, and the relationships are sweet, though one does first have to get past a really bad (not in a worrysome way, just not funny) joke they put in first, that sadly has later story relevence, but aside from that it's quite good. It has the nice but shockingly rare thing where the polycule is an actual polycule, not just some person's sex harem (not to be confused with irl harems, which were mostly administrative bodies)

 

[jufot]

Corporate Culture's latest chapter is out I've shared my thoughts here and would love to know what you folks think of it.

 

[Arisushi]

Corporate Culture's latest chapter is out I've shared my thoughts here and would love to know what you folks think of it.

Just finished playing it.

Personally, I found it to be the best update of the game so far.

Spoiler: Warning! Long Read Ahead

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[Birdnman993]

Corporate Culture's latest chapter is out I've shared my thoughts here and would love to know what you folks think of it.

And how long is this update? Because I like the story a lot, but not so much to wait another year for more content to come out.

 

[kotte]

Yay! Episode 3 of Dancing Colors has hit this site. Haven't tried it yet, but I enjoyed the first two installments a lot.

 

[camube]

noping's No Such Luck new chapter is out on Patreon

 

[kotte]

Since the thread is a bit quiet this week, I'll post this, even though it doesn't bring anything new here:

I have read many times in this thread about Corporate Culture. The other day I decided to try it, and today I finished the latest episode and added one more Patreon to my list of patronages.

At first, I was quite put off. The MC is a moron, but I also made the mistake of finding the AVN moronic. It had the typical "alpha vs. loser" choices, it felt naïve, almost pubescent. But then I came to one of the brilliant games of word-tennis between the MC and Elsa and it made me want to stay.

After that, I started to find more and more signs of excellence. Like the neighbour, Lucy, that I first guessed was put there to be an easy shag early in the game, so as to not lose players if the main LI's were progressing too slowly. Until I read how much of a real person she is, how even the the worst interactions (actually, especially those) are full of life and purposeful.

Then we had the bar scene with the fight, and there the dev switched from words to a scene solely driven by still images that precisely and rythmically carried the story and the ambience at the same time.

And last but definitely not least, some of the interactions with Elsa are just plain brilliant. I am extremely torn, if she would become an LI, would I like it or hate it, but no matter which she is the epicenter of the story. Every little bit of information we get about her, every time she shows us a sliver of humanity, I just go for it like a starving man for a strawberry cake.

Thanks for recommending it!

 

[jufot]

some of the interactions with Elsa are just plain brilliant. I am extremely torn, if she would become an LI, would I like it or hate it, but no matter which she is the epicenter of the story. Every little bit of information we get about her, every time she shows us a sliver of humanity, I just go for it like a starving man for a strawberry cake.

Based on their current relationship, I don't want her to be an LI. Nothing about him seems desirable to someone like her. So I'm infinitely curious how sqwl will manage to make her one, without resorting to nonsense. I have faith in him, though, so it's just a waiting game

 

[kotte]

Based on their current relationship, I don't want her to be an LI. Nothing about him seems desirable to someone like her. So I'm infinitely curious how sqwl will manage to make her one, without resorting to nonsense. I have faith in him, though, so it's just a waiting game

To me, it is a Pygmalion story where Elsa is driven by a desire to transform Edward, but if she would succeed, she would lose interest in him. Just like Higgins with Eliza.

However, there are a lot of hints, where Elsa might seem a little bit jealous when Edward is going on about how fantastic Alice is. But it could just as well be that she simply finds it tiring to listen to...

 

[jufot]

To me, it is a Pygmalion story where Elsa is driven by a desire to transform Edward, but if she would succeed, she would lose interest in him. Just like Higgins with Eliza.

I spent a good minute thinking how Higgins didn't lose interest in Eliza and so the comment didn't make sense, but then it clicked that you meant the other way around as the analogy is gender swapped

However, there are a lot of hints, where Elsa might seem a little bit jealous when Edward is going on about how fantastic Alice is. But it could just as well be that she simply finds it tiring to listen to...

Interesting. I've never read that as jealousy. Just... drudgery. I think Elsa quickly gets bored with his nonsense, which is why she tries to keep the conversation short and to the point.

 

[camube]

Lately I realized that most AVNs are probably not made for me. I'm not the target audience because in order to earn support, most devs has to sacrifice the "Novel" part of AVNs.

I'm aware that the way people consume stories, some people put themselves on first person perspective, another portion of people put ourselves on third person perspective, an observer.

I recently realized AVN target audience goes beyond wanting to see things from first-person or third person POV though.
That it goes beyond a mere 'relating' to the Main Character. That there is this need to pretend that they are the Main Character themselves. It seems as if it goes beyond want, and crossing to need.

I recently realized that that need means developers are being criticized for having story elements that is disagreeable to AVN target audience.
It's a really disappointing realization that the story part might be sacrificed to appeal to target audiences of AVNs.

There is a game I support on Patreon where the dev is currently questioning how to re-do their Novel early part because it has "forced girlfriend" setting.
A part of that game's story hook is his present dilemma between committing to his current girlfriend or changing his mind based on what happened in his past. So the setting is a part of the story. Revising the story to "optional girlfriend" would change the basic of the story.

This leads me to example 2. There is a game out there that barely just began but I think has a sharp writing, and has a plot that makes sense that, even a year after I played that game, I still remember some character and part of it's story. I just learned that the game is speculated to be abandoned because the latest update from a year ago received heavy criticism.

At first I did not understand what the criticism was about until I was reminded that one of the character in that game blackmailed the Main Character. And that part of the story is so very disagreeable that the criticism speculated to have made the dev abandoned the game).

That leads to example 3. I just started a game where the game has a warning that says something to the effect of "it's characters may have sexual histories and not necessarily with the main character. It will also contain seldom and sporadic scenes where these characters maybe sexual with others for whatever reason that may be. None of these scenes exist with the intention of cucking the MC"

To summarize the three examples. Example 1 affects the initial hook of the story. Example 2 affects the story element. Example 3 affects the world of the story. As in how alive the world of the story is.

Example 1 shows the dev having to change to cater to the target audience. Example 2 shows the dev also having to cater, but this time by stopping the development. Example 3 is catering by trying to do a middleground by building a world but making it "seldom and sporadic"

I like Choose Your Own Adventure and I like Story, so visual novel, west or east, fits me because it satisfies both of that. West VN in general is far shorter than East VN, so for me that's a major plus.

The fact that an AVN developer has to cater to readers that does not want to see this or that story element to be able to earn a living is a major disappointment to me because it affects the story themselves

I really don't put much stock what story element is in an AVN. I just want to read good stories.
To me,
Deviancy and Little Regina has similarities
House of the Dragon and New Antioch has similarities
Firefly and Projekt Passion has similarities
One Tree Hill and Our Red String has similarities

Everyone is entitled to their opinion in their dislikes and likes. What matters to me is how it's delivered and what is the dev trying to convey with the story.

What I did not realized until recently is how the dislikes of AVN target audience might heavily affect AVN story because what is in the game will affect AVN devs bottom line.
It's a major disappointment and a sad realization to me that AVN also might have to self-censored on the Novel part so that the devs can earn supports.
Heavy on the Adult and light on the Novel is one thing but having to excise or not include things that could have made a better story is unfortunate.

 

[jamdan]

^ This is a core reason that many people are militantly against NTR games, they themselves feel cucked.

However, I think AVN devs should... well, just ignore them. The vast majority of people on this website do not ever pay for the games they play. If devs want to make a living, complete their game and put it on Steam; a place where people will actually buy it.

Letting a piracy website be, more or less, the regulator of AVN games isn't a good idea.

 

[Tlaero]

Lately I realized that most AVNs are probably not made for me. I'm not the target audience because in order to earn support, most devs has to sacrifice the "Novel" part of AVNs.

While I agree with your sentiment, I think you're conflating "F95" and "The target audience for AVNs." While F95 is a large audience, they're not the only one. And, though people on F95 seem to think that they are the only people who matter, that's clearly not the case. For example, ArianeB has zero presence here, and is making a living writing her AVNs.

Also, it's not just AVN developers who have to contend with a toxic environment for making their product. You've got people review-bombing TV shows that have a female superhero. You've got people writing bad reviews about movies they didn't see because they were made by a company they feel is too supportive of people they don't like. Etc.

As bad as things are, now, it used to be much worse. 35 years ago, the only way for a writer to sell a book was to get it published by one of a small number of publishers. And even if the writer managed to get noticed by one of those publishers, the bookstores would only stock their book for a short time before tearing off the cover and sending it back. 30 years ago, Amazon started selling book from anyone. But you still had to pay a ton of money to get your books printed. 25ish years ago, you started seeing digital books that allowed everyday people to write stories for very little cost to them and sell them online. Now you don't even have to sell them. You have places like Patreon to support you.

It's definitely a shame when a promising developer fails. But failure in any endeavor is common. Something like 80% of all restaurants fail in the first year.

What you can do is support the people who are trying to make the things you like. It doesn't have to be money/patronage. Just getting positive feedback in the sea of negativity can convince a writer to keep going. Don't take for granted what encouragement will do for people who are struggling. And, if you can afford to toss some money their way, all the better.

Tlaero

 

[Dessolos]

Probably too early to recommend for this thread. I just played the Prologue of The missing Part. I thought it was just as good on an emotional level as Leap of Faith just from a prologue. I think it's one worth keeping an eye out on.