Recommending Story-first games

[yossa999]

As for the rest of you comment, I didn't read it since I haven't played the LDNA yet and don't want to be even more spoiled than what can already be inferred from skimming peoples posts on the topic.

Haha, but he didn't say a word about LDNA, his post was mostly about Strangers on Paper

 

[NebulousShooter]

Haha, but he didn't say a word about LDNA, his post was mostly about Strangers on Paper

perfect, then I was effective

 

[yossa999]

I'm not so sure what DPC did was a "stunt" because I don't think he did it to attract attention specifically, that was just a side-effect that ended up being beneficial.

I think this was a case of "there is no way something bad isn't going to happen" so you just have to... let it happen. The ex-GF of MC, from what I recall, was nuts. So she was dangerous, and dangerous people tend to do dangerous things.

So having her literally kill off one of the LI's ended up being the most concise and straightforward way to show that danger.
Because either way, she still would've been needed to be dealt with, and that would've involved more danger and more prolonging of the game.

I think only DPC knows the truth, but I got the impression from the whole discussion about AL back then that it was intentional shock content to attract the maximum attention. I guess I need to re-read his old posts on this forum, he was pretty open back then. He couldn't just not realize that turning a dating sim into a horror game would push away many players.

I don't know what ending BAD is heading towards, I wrote in my review on the first season on Steam that I have a feeling from the game that American Pie will turn into Saw. But so far all the crises in the game are resolved very easily and harmlessly. First, suspense is created, dark music, ominous hints, Hitchcockian shots like when Patrick droves to Maya for a surprise room inspection and then "MC, why your sheets are pink?" Dude, seriously...

 

[realjitter]

She is obedient, comfortable, has great tits and very skillful at blowjobs.

Wow, you're going pretty hard on Amy here.

I do have to disagree though because you have to look at the bigger picture here. Someone correct me, but I think this AVN will "only" have 4 chapters. With that in mind you could call it more of a short story compared to your average AVN. So you certainly have to make some decisions as a writer about what to put into your short story and what not. Like I wrote in my initial mini review, the developer already did way more than I thought she would. So the question would be if it would add anything significant to the story if you would flesh out the Amy character even more by giving her more character traits/flaws/whatever.

I personally would say no, I like her as she is, but it does depend a little be on what happens next.

 

[realjitter]

Its the same thing with other themes, they just don't work in a AVN setting, visual novels have always been from inception at their core dating simulators. Get the girl(s) and ride off into the sunset and watch the 'ending' you unlocked. The more it deviates from that formula, the smaller the audience. Make your own case if that is a good thing, or not.

Well, then i'm glad that only 95% of AVN developers agree with you instead of a 100. Otherwise I would've left this place a long time ago =(

 

[yossa999]

Wow, you're going pretty hard on Amy here.

Well, maybe when I was young and daring, I crawled out of my basement one day and met someone like her. And basically played SoP only with very realistic graphics.

She has no idea what she wants. She seems comfortable with her fiancé, but she also knows he's a jerk. She seems loyal to him, but she wants to flirt and have fun with the MC. She seems happy in her relationship but she wants a sip of fresh air from that relationship. She seems to have plans and dreams, she dreams of opening a bakery or something (I fell asleep during this dialogue), but she just can't bring herself to do anything.

Nah, Becca is better. Sure, she's no gift either, Ms. Broken Emo Heart, but at least there's a hint of some fun in compare with the walking mix of indecisiveness, depression, and broken dreams.

I do have to disagree though because you have to look at the bigger picture here. Someone correct me, but I think this AVN will "only" have 4 chapters.

Yeah, the game lost a couple of RPs with me when I found out about that. I can't stand short stories. I'd rather go to the Daz skills thread, where they can fit the whole plot into one picture.

With that in mind you could call it more of a short story compared to your average AVN. So you certainly have to make some decisions as a writer about what to put into your short story and what not. Like I wrote in my initial mini review, the developer already did way more than I thought she would. So the question would be if it would add anything significant to the story if you would flesh out the Amy character even more by giving her more character traits/flaws/whatever.

I personally would say no, I like her as she is, but it does depend a little be on what happens next.

Yeah, that's the question, what happens next? What this game is about?

 

[realjitter]

Yeah, that's the question, what happens next? What this game is about?

But that's a good thing, ain't it?

 

[yossa999]

But that's a good thing, ain't it?

Of course, if you completed the episode in one breath and it ended with a cliffhanger and you can’t wait to find out what will happen next. Unfortunately, this is not my case.
EDIT: LDNA, on the other hand...

 

[Johnny Dough]

The game's name comes from Hubert's theory of "the abnormal virgin," an idea so ridiculous, it could only exist in porn. And as porny as that sounds, it is surprisingly well articulated and serves as a funny, self-aware parody of porn logic.

Hi. I tried to find it through the game, but it's not my kind of reading. I'm curious about this theory though. What is it? I tried to Google it, but I couldn't find anything.

 

[jufot]

I'm curious about this theory though. What is it? I tried to Google it, but I couldn't find anything.

It's not a real theory, it's just something Hubert (the brother) comes up with in the game. The short version is that an abnormal virgin is a promiscuous/slutty person who otherwise keeps their virginity intact (i.e. doing anything but) and the unlikely and weird nature of it making them more attractive to others on an almost subconscious level.

The game isn't making a serious argument, it's all very self-aware and tongue in cheek.

 

[Vasin]

So I came across Imperial Chronicles and it turned out to be a decently well written story. Now, sex scenes, especially at the start, do feel out of place, gratuitous and rather bland, but they are *all* skippable.

The main plot is a pretty standard fare of medieval intrigue, betrayal and the like, but what elevated it for me was a pretty high level of worldbuilding. It reminded me of Elvensang, despite not quite reaching the level, the exposition feels a bit stilted at times and it feels like the author is talking at us, instead of having organic conversations. It feels to me like a slightly pornier version of Shards of the Past, if we're talking in terms of mood.

On the development and production thing to note is that the English translation leaves some things to be desired, while it's mostly understandable I wouldn't expect an overabundance of eloquence. Renders are quite good and the release schedule from what I've seen is consistent, which is very impressive given that the choices in the game tend to have *some*, if limited impact, so there's quite a bit of variance.

Edit: I've got to the end of content and have some more things to say. The author has a remarkable, and frequently missing, ability to give you choices that have visible consequence and some weight while not completely derailing the main plotline. A lot of the time, the results of your choices are quite apparent. I went through the thread of the game and some people had apparently a completely different experience and playthough to mine. The other aspect of it is that I felt genuinely conflicted about some of them. Like which side of the family so support or what kind of government help to establish.

Does it feel like a story first game then? Well, no. It seems more to me like the game where the author wanted to tell a solid dark fantasy story, but it's also a porn game. So you can bang your mum. And both sisters. And I'd really rather not. On the flipside of that, it seems to be doing it to the satisfaction of the general population, and as long as I can keep not doing that, I'll keep an eye on the game.

 

[camube]

i'm in the middle of checking to then purging my backlogs to make it far smaller. Along the way i saw more than a couple AVNs gets abandoned in the past year even though they have good reviews and/or decent number of patrons. Including a couple of the games i've played in the past.

i think new avn devs is possibly fighting an even steeper uphill battle now because players, me for example, may not want to invest time on trying out new games because of worry of potential abandonment, which is paradoxical to the assumption that new devs often are the ones needing the most support to continue development

 

[yossa999]

i'm in the middle of checking to then purging my backlogs to make it far smaller. Along the way i saw more than a couple AVNs gets abandoned in the past year even though they have good reviews and/or decent number of patrons. Including a couple of the games i've played in the past.

i think new avn devs is possibly fighting an even steeper uphill battle now because players, me for example, may not want to invest time on trying out new games because of worry of potential abandonment, which is paradoxical to the assumption that new devs often are the ones needing the most support to continue development

Dunno, I'm still trying new games, although the backlog is only growing. Otherwise, how would I find such gems as Tides of Succession, The Missing Part, Alienated...

 

[camube]

Dunno, I'm still trying new games, although the backlog is only growing. Otherwise, how would I find such gems as Tides of Succession, The Missing Part, Alienated...

i think im gonnna be far more discerning on which ones i try to play if they are new. it has to be good to great before i invest my time.

On new renpy AVNs, like 1st release or 2nd release, maybe
If there's too many characters? probably a skip
If the scope of the story is too big? probably a skip
If there are too many gameplay mechanics that might be unsustainable? probably a skip
if they don't bother to have patreon/subscribestar for one reason or another? probably a skip

I will probably wait until either they are midway through development and show that they can be consistent, or they found success with high number of patrons, increasing the possibility that they wont abandon it

of the game i personally played, many has halted or greatly slowing down their developments, deluca, arson betrayal, desire of fate, mad world, nothing is forever, unraveling august, law of attraction off the top of my head

off the ones i put on my backlog, stray incubus and midsummer moonlight and frostshade

a few are just extremely slow too. Like move the chains is really slow. Being a DIK too. probably will drop Being a DIK in 2-4 years. u4ia and artemis is slow too

 

[kotte]

if they don't bother to have patreon/subscribestar for one reason or another? probably a skip

This is actually something that I sometimes interpret as positive (depending on how they introduce themselves). It could mean that they haven't started the project with a misguided hope that they could make enough money to quit their day job...

 

[GokutheG]

if they don't bother to have patreon/subscribestar for one reason or another? probably a skip

I've heard of devs who abandon Patreon when they try to force them to give them a copy of their government paperwork even if the Patreon is supposed to be a company account. I wouldn't trust a 3rd party with that information online especially with all the leaks going around.

 

[camube]

This is actually something that I sometimes interpret as positive (depending on how they introduce themselves). It could mean that they haven't started the project with a misguided hope that they could make enough money to quit their day job...

it's positive for me too but i'll check back in 2 or so years if they continue their game's development or stop midway

 

[kotte]

Hm. I have a folder in my bookmarks called "Has potential", where I put links to games that I maight want to try some day.
I seldom do, since I have enough ongoing games to keep me busy, but today I took a look at what was there.
Well, you know me, I like to crunch some data:

Of the 32 links I added in 2021 and 2022:

* 15 was abandoned
* 12 is still under development
* 5 have been completed

I don't know what this says, maybe that it's positive that more than half of the games, 2 years later, was either finished or still being developed? And 5 out of 32 games finished ain't that bad?

Of course, it is possible that the numbers are skewed since these are only games I have deemed interesting.
But on the other hand, I don't care about the others...

 

[jufot]

Impious Monk has published a

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on Episode 4 on Patreon.

I finally understand why he thinks "loss of Colleen" is a thing and more importantly, I like his plans for Emmeline which I didn't expect. But that speaks somewhat more to my lack of faith than his narrative choices, so go read it for yourselves

 

[Raife]

Sorry, one more thing I want to comment here...

So, with apologies to the regulars on this thread who have already picked over LDNA Episode 4, I'll chip in, too. I wanted to hold back until I'd played it, thought about the episode a bit, and started a couple new playthroughs from the beginning.

While I can see why this episode was so off-putting -- or disgusting -- for many players, and I still have my doubts about both Impious's plans and ability to see this story through, in a meaningful way, to the end... overall, I think it's a fantastic, albeit imperfect, effort. Let me say a few words about 'why' before I get to the twist itself.

There are certain things that I dislike intensely about most AVNs:

1) Gary Stu MCs, which provide comfortable wish-fulfillment for self-inserting players. There's nothing wrong with these sorts of games, but I've long wanted something more challenging. For the first chapter or two, Impious, I thought you'd fallen in to that trap. But, oh man, you had something else in mind.

2) The lack of a sense of jeopardy. While the LDNA MC isn't especially vulnerable in physical terms (although he's hardly invulnerable), psychologically, he's clearly hanging on by a very thin thread... one that is getting thinner by the episode. As a player, I feel very responsible for keeping him from tipping over into the darkness. My guess is that the physical menace is poised to get worse as well.

3) Illusory choices or choices that don't matter. That certainly is not the case in this game.

4) 'Porn logic' or prurient adult scenes that don't serve the story. There's almost none of that in your game -- including, I would argue -- in the 'twist' on one path.

The common feature of my four big 'dislikes' is that they all tend to increase the audience for an AVN -- but in ways that usually produce contortions that rob the story of integrity and emotional resonance. They make the game feel 'fake' or as a device for porn delivery.

Now, let's deal with the Big One:

I find incest revolting and do not play games that feature it as a fetish. But... this game does not treat it that way, at all. It is used as a tragic device that triples down on the MC's vulnerability and sense of emotional jeopardy. If, on three of the four LI paths he's teetering on the brink, on that one, he starts to fall.

I certainly understand why players are complaining about being blindsided... and we were. But, it's also true that Chekhov's gun was loaded and on the table from the beginning. We just didn't notice it.

In addition to the horrific father-daughter rape case, there was the long discussion of why even consensual incest between adults is terrible and should be illegal in the bar scene in Chapter 1. Finally, there's Jamie herself. She's the closest thing that the MC has to a little sister... and the main reason he can't see himself dating her, is that he continues to see her that way..

So the signs were there... we just weren't looking. Just as in one of the greatest movies of all time _Chinatown_ the true horror of that incestuous situation appears suddenly, albeit with some ominous hints. it's not fair to blame the dev for the fact we were surprised. We were _meant_ to be surprised.

But, Impious... "you are not a Jedi, yet" -- or, rather, 'you are not Robert Towne, yet.' I have some big concerns:

• You saved an Act V-type tragic revelation for the end of Act II or III. I'm not sure that works... or at least, it's going to be tough to manage.
• While I broadly disagree with jufot's initial negative reaction to the new chapter, he's right about Colleen. I don't think that landed as intended, primarily because we (the players) did not get to know her enough. I understand exactly what you were trying to do... but the MC's feelings and reactions were a bit ahead of the players', for understandable reasons. He (the MC) has a psychological need that we (the players) don't have. We needed a bit more time to understand the MC's perspective, and empathise fully with him.
• Do you really have the chutzpah to tell a tragic story... in an AVN? Really?

I have some other quibbles, as well. But... overall, I found this chapter to be a very brave move on your part, Dev: both in the 'Florida man' sense of brave (it's probably financial poison) and in the gutsy, admirable sense.

We complain constantly, on this thread, about devs playing for a mass audience, and distorting the stories they want to tell for financial reasons or to earn a bit of on-line stroking. Impious certainly hasn't done that. My virtual hat is off to him; I want to see where he takes this tale.