Recommending Story-first games

[moskyx]

Jufot, man, this is really an unfair comment.

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I'm not sure how to put this without sounding like an insensitive cunt, since it's obvious this project means so much to you, and it shows - not to mention I'm also aware of your struggles of these last months. But you should realize your target audience was a small subset of players from a niche. You aimed to raise the bar for AVN games with a serious plot, and so far I'd say you're closer to succeeding than not, but you are still making an AVN nonetheless. So, adjust your own expectations, maybe?

I mean, if you were hoping for deep philosophical discussions about serious matters, maybe an AVN wasn't the right media, in the first place? It attracts a large group of people who just don't care about that and won't hesitate to crush your creation as soon as it diverges from what they expect/demand from these games, misguiding the public discussion you hoped for. But, leaving that aside, the truth is that sex blurs everything else, even in threads like this. By default, as I said above, an enormous chunk of your players will miss all of those nuances you tried to add to your characters and scenes, as they only focus on sex and instant gratification, and even those who actually care about the story and how it's told will still miss (and/or dismiss) something, sometimes blinded too by the lewd content.

It doesn't help that this is an episodic work, too: you know the whole story, you know why your characters act the way they act and say the things they say, but the rest of us can only guess your intentions based on the portion we've received, our own sensitivity, and the potential paths we can see in front of us as of now. And we'll use our bias and experiences in real life and adult gaming to shape those guessings, and our adult gaming experiences will probably make us fear the worst (well, you were aiming to raise the bar for a reason). Don't sweat for this, it's not your fault (or, maybe only a little). Trust the process. As long as everything you add to the game makes perfect sense in your mind, and fits your characters and the story and environment you aimed to create, you shouldn't worry too much about us not getting the whole picture or not being as interested as you in those small details that felt so important to you. And sometimes we need a little nudge like this comment to help us better understand what you were aiming for and shape our future expectations accordingly. You're the author, don't hesitate to kick the discussion ball rolling.

Then there's also this wish (that I guess almost every author has) to transcend and shock your players with unusual and unexpected turns, which can be a hurtful drive - what you think is a well-thought scene can be easily perceived as a cheap twist by many players, as it's impossible to get the exact amount of drama right: different people have different tolerance limits and will feel kicked out of their suspension of disbelief at different points of the story. But that's also to be expected when you face such a diverse audience and your chosen twist steps into a controversial zone for many players, be it killing off a LI or suddenly making her family. Some people will applaud your balls, and others will want to cut them off. That's creative work in a nutshell.

In my particular case, the way I see this twist is double-edged: I can understand your intentions regarding its impact on these characters, especially the MC, and as I said the other day I'd be genuinely interested in seeing how this particular path would evolve characterization-wise because everything else is great in your game and I trust you'll manage to make it worthwhile for the 'story-focused' subset of players, but I can't help but state that the way it's presented is a trap on players that can be easily perceived as a cheap shocking resource just for the sake of drama, even though it makes perfect sense after your explanation. But, most importantly to me, I can't help but notice you're creating an AVN and there's also this very solid chance that one of the potential ramifications would eventually involve players being able to choose to indulge in the incestuous relationship, much to this other large subset of 'kink-oriented' players titillation. And since it's a kink that hits too close to home to me (I could tell this MC a couple of things about what a family is), it's a twist that I can't honestly like in this media. I'll still translate this episode, but if the potential scenario is developed the way I fear, I might not be able to continue after this. But hey, it's in your disclaimer. You shouldn't feel bad about meeting someone who may, indeed, want to skip your AVN due to its themes. By all means, keep doing what you always wanted to do.

 

[jufot]

Alright, in the almost 5-year history of this thread, this is only the second time I'm making an unusual recommendation.

Abnormal is not a story-first game. One could argue if it has a story at all. What it does have is some smart, tightly paced writing and an endearing set of core characters.

It's a slice of life VN set around Stephanie, a Mennonite-looking, nerdy wallflower. She and her best friend Raina are about to graduate from high school, and are tormented by their long-term nemesis Sadie and her trio of Mean Girls bullies. Stephanie also has her mum and a younger brother, Hubert.

The game's name comes from Hubert's theory of "the abnormal virgin," an idea so ridiculous, it could only exist in porn. And as porny as that sounds, it is surprisingly well articulated and serves as a funny, self-aware parody of porn logic.

It's a fairly standard coming of age story centred on Stephanie's sexual awakening. It's corruption, but in the literal, loss of innocence sense, without any of the genre's distasteful tropes like abuse, violence, rape and so on. In fact, if you squint really really hard, the game's sexual politics are kinda-sorta progressive, if a little cynical. It's a fairly long game despite being only 6-months old, and it requires copious suspension of disbelief. There is plenty of porn logic, especially on the family side. Not an incest game, though, but there is some blurring of the lines.

Stephanie's character growth (and corruption) is done very well and is largely driven by Raina and Sadie. They are both well written, smart, interesting characters. Importantly, they have lives outside Stephanie, including sexually! Sadie in particular is my favourite character. Her intelligence and cynicism reminds me of Corporate Culture's Elsa (always a plus), though Sadie has actual vulnerability and heart to her. In fact, some of her dialogue could fit perfectly well into CC:

Sadie: "You know what's thrilling?"
Steph: "Picking on others relentlessly and filling their heads with bullshit?"
Sadie: "Besides that. Subverting expectations."
Steph: "Huh?"
Sadie: "Proving to others you aren't what you seem. That you're more than your image."
Sadie: "It's like having a hidden power."
Sadie: "Because people cling to what's normal. And that's boring."
Sadie: "But you can take that tendency and use it like a weapon. Misdirect their expectations in new and exciting ways…"
Steph: "Sensei teaches something similar in aikido… To use your opponent's momentum and energy against them…"
Sadie: "That's exactly it! But they don't have to be your opponents. It can even be your friends. Or family."
Sadie: "Everywhere you look, people are stuck in their preconceptions."
Sadie: "Their minds are full of assumptions, desires for familiarity, notions of normalcy, the comforts of routine and pattern."
Steph: "You really are a master manipulator, aren't you?"
Sadie: "We all are, just some are more self-aware than others."
Steph: "I never thought I'd be sitting here with a topless Sadie Carter talking philosophy…"

If any of this sounds intriguing, maybe give it a go?

 

[boobsrcool]

I, for one found the twist to be hot!

Jufot Nelson have you given Tribulations of a Mage a spin yet? I didn't play the terminus reach games a try but in my opinion it's been

 

[TREXrg]

Sorry, one more thing I want to comment here, not really a continuation of my previous post but:

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Rule of thumb is often people say they want something but in reality they want something else and with romances and death it's easy to enrages people with something they care about .

On story note killing of (good or plot)characters don't work well in general and even if they are at the ending of storys, people realy want happy endings for them self and in games/selfinsert Mc with the love intrest of there choice every story that has choices but then has no option to have a happy end is for most people a bad story.
Acting Lesson is more hated then loved by most because of that reason.

Most see VN's as entertainment to forget/don't feel negative to the point they are reminded of tragedys in there own lives, death is something people can't realy ignore if they care for the characters that are dead and people that don't care don't care so it's a loose loose situation.

So if done it's either optional(more work) or negativly recived

About optional it's like kinks most don't care about it if it's avoidable but if not avoidable they will react because they feel forced to it(baldurs gate 3 does it to the point where you can do freak and evil stuff but are not forced to do it that way and surves show most people/89% play good so the effort is there because they want to have the choices for two reason first they want them themself and seconde it shows even the good players the option to be evil or freaky is there and people like having options even if they never use the options)

About negativly recived it's something that has to be calulated and expected and the question every autors has to ask is if the character has more value alive or dead(exept in westerns there it's Dead or Alive) even George R.R.Martin regrets killing some charaters of becaues now he does not know how to drivethe story in the direction where he wants them to (He killed to many Plot Charaters of for shock without asking the question first Dead or Alive)

I personaly have Story's where characters CAN die(but also saved and main route is always the save route) but it's more work so either made by a team or done at the end of game/story.
The more work is the main reason because good characters are not in a vacum and thus afect others so lots of lines have to be adjusted and even character arcs have to change

So it's a cost question of time and/or money(if more people) it optionale or of goodwill if not optional because people that did not care about certain character will still get fear about the characters the like.

 

[Jaike]

Guess that means I'll have to add LDNA to my play list.

Jufot Nelson have you given Tribulations of a Mage a spin yet? I didn't play the terminus reach games a try but in my opinion it's been

Not sure there are many other Talothral shills still in this topic beside me. I've completed his 3 first VNs, and I've tried an early version of Tribulations of a Mage and will give it another run soon. I can recommend the Terminus Reach: Sentinel series, but suggest you first read a little about international relations theory first so you can appreciate more of the themes, and finally be prepared for a visual downgrade with the first Terminus Reach: Sentinel.

I do think the drama in his stories come more from the mysteries and the political maneuvering, cause the MCs are often so powerful and we all know there'll be a harem ending.

 

[yossa999]

Acting Lesson is more hated then loved by most because of that reason.

I do agree but with just one remark. AL was the sacrificial goat that DPC slaughtered to get a +50% attention bonus. I don't know how many people love the game and how many hate it, but almost everyone knew about the game and its author who pulled off such a stunt. The game was certainly talked about everywhere. So when DPC released the first episode of BaD, the initial interest was just colossal due to the previous fame. So no, it was not a bad writing, but a cold, calculated move.

 

[realjitter]

such a stunt

I don't get, if anything it got me more hyped about AVN's going forward since AL was also the first AVN i've read. Dramatic events are present in every media everywhere. Even freaking Hallmark movies do have them (I assume, maybe not ). So what is this here, the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil club?. Same goes for when people bring up "escapism". Like, what are they even talking about?. First of all escapism is a vastly exaggerated word in my opinion, entertainment would be more accurate. And when I bring up entertainment, well, I dont think I have to explain this any further since we're all grown ups here. The self insert argument would also be invalid imo because self inseration is (obviously) not an AVN exclusive thing.

Anyways, this whole topic is not what I wanted to initially write about =\


I wanted to bring up Strangers on paper once more since jufot mentioned the whole marriage thing again. I think I went a little too soft on this storyline because the more I think about the less thought out it comes across...

So what's the situation here, we have Amy and Brandon about to get married, yay. Well, it's not a forced marriage and it's also not some weird/complicated family interference/whatever kind of deal. With that in mind, shouldn't they be super happy right now?. Basically at the very hight of their relationship, with sunshine and rainbows everywhere?. I just found it to be odd what's presented to us here, from a logic standpoint.

On one hand we have Brandon the asshole cheater . Like, ok?. But why would he want to marry Amy when he's happier with someone else? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to break up with Amy?. What's his gain here, to potentially pay alimony somewhere down the road?. Or is it something else, does Amy have money?. Is Amy like a trophy for him?. But even then, none of this makes any sense at all.

And what about Amy herself?. In the game she's portrayed as being the whole package. Attractive, smart, witty, ambitious, confident and so on and so forth. What a woman, right?. She basically doesn't have any real flaws, at least none that we know about. So how come that "super Amy" wants to marry assshole Brandon in the first place, just out of convenience?. Or maybe her inner clock's already ticking and she just takes whomever?. Does Brandon has some kind of hold over her?. Or maybe Amy is completely infatuated with him so that she's unable to see what's right infront of her?. All of that doesn't sound like our super Amy , does it?.

I'm just mentioning all of those things because we don't get to see anything of it in the game. We do get to see Amy and Brandon interact only once (I think). In that scene we get a brief look at him where it gets telegraphed to the audience how dissmissive he behaves while basically being on his way out again to cheat on Amy. It just doesn't add up to me...

Again, this doesn't take place after they became married, nor does it take place while they're just in a normal boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.. Because those two type of scenarios would've been less problematic because it gives you the freedom to interpret and write about it however you want to, but not in this particular instance.

So my question would sill be, why would Brandon not break up with Amy?. Because this whole stroyline, as it stands now, feels more like some romantic fever dream by someone. Or straight up pulp fiction....

 

[jufot]

With that in mind, shouldn't they be super happy right now?. Basically at the very hight of their relationship, with sunshine and rainbows everywhere?. I just found it to be odd what's presented to us here, from a logic standpoint.

What makes you think it's the height of their relationship? They have clearly fallen far from whatever past heights, and I don't think either of them would dispute it.

But why would he want to marry Amy when he's happier with someone else? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to break up with Amy?. What's his gain here, to potentially pay alimony somewhere down the road?. Or is it something else, does Amy have money?. Is Amy like a trophy for him?. But even then, none of this makes any sense at all.

Because relationships don't work that way? Anonymous people online love to post self-righteous "just leave" comments in response to cheating stories, but real life is seldom that simple. A relationship can be too good to leave and too bad to stay in. Even if the cheater is caught, it's far from a given that their partner will want to leave or even be mad at all.

And even if Brandon has no redeemable qualities whatsoever (a massive if) and Amy suspects his extracurriculars, inertia alone is enough to stop most people from changing course.

She basically doesn't have any real flaws, at least none that we know about.

You say this, but then complain about her staying with Brandon. Wouldn't that be a massive, real flaw?

I'm just mentioning all of those things because we don't get to see anything of it in the game. We do get to see Amy and Brandon interact only once (I think). In that scene we get a brief look at him where it gets telegraphed to the audience how dissmissive he behaves while basically being on his way out again to cheat on Amy. It just doesn't add up to me...

Because it ultimately doesn't matter. The player's perspective is that of a third party, and clearly, all MC is interested in is to be there to catch her when she inevitably falls. It doesn't matter how or why her engagement has ended up in this state. That's in the past. It doesn't even matter how it will end, only that it will.

 

[TREXrg]

I do agree but with just one remark. AL was the sacrificial goat that DPC slaughtered to get a +50% attention bonus. I don't know how many people love the game and how many hate it, but almost everyone knew about the game and its author who pulled off such a stunt. The game was certainly talked about everywhere. So when DPC released the first episode of BaD, the initial interest was just colossal due to the previous fame. So no, it was not a bad writing, but a cold, calculated move.

Oh he certaintly did it for that reason,
and by 'Bad Writing' i meant what people feelt about it not that it's badly written
he also had BaD fast enough to ride the infame and he improved significant so BaD looked better animations/renders all around
so it's a stunt not many could pull of and a generaly still have the feeling he may does something akin to that because it is what he sees as 'ART'

 

[realjitter]

What makes you think it's the height of their relationship? They have clearly fallen far from whatever past heights, and I don't think either of them would dispute it.

Still that sounds a little too convienent to me. So the situation is just simply that they both reluctantly crawl towards a marriage they both don't want?. Again, it's 1 month before their wedding. They should be in the middle of their wedding preperatios with family gathereings and all the million things that play into such an event... It's just, for my tastes a bit too simple to just give us Brandon the cheater in this scenario. I wouldn't even think about and I also would agree with everything you wrote if it weren't for those specific circumstances, is all.

I am aware about that the focal point of this story is not Amy + Brandon, it's of course MC + Amy/Becca. I just think this whole getting married thing is a too big of a burden for that storyline. It's like a rom/com storyline to me without the com.

 

[jufot]

for my tastes a bit too simple to just give us Brandon the cheater in this scenario.

I agree that "Brandon the cheater" is the weakest point of the game. I just don't think the specifics of it really matter.

 

[realjitter]

Brandon the cheater

Imagine if the scenario would be different, with Amy being happily married to Brandon until she meets the MC... Oh the controversy..

 

[jufot]

Imagine if the scenario would be different, with Amy being happily married to Brandon until she meets the MC... Oh the controversy..

It would have been infinitely better, but AVN audiences treasure their hugboxes and are utterly terrified of emotional discomfort or conflict. It would never fly, unfortunately.

 

[forthewins]

Jufot, man, this is really an unfair comment.

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Hey, man. I haven't played all of your game, but I did play a good chunk of it and plan on catching up.

I just want to say I see you're taking this feedback hard. Hang in there.

No good art has ever come from trying to give people what they want. Make the game you want to make.

And if it matters, honestly, this discussion is just making me want to get back to your game. So for everyone you may turn off by having a twist that people weren't expecting and didn't "want", you may be attracting others to your game to see what the fuss is all about, and those that aren't as bothered by those kinds of twists.

I think Dr. Pinkcake is doing okay after all that backlash from the fire, last I heard.

edit: fixing messy quotes

 

[forthewins]

So when DPC released the first episode of BaD, the initial interest was just colossal due to the previous fame. So no, it was not a bad writing, but a cold, calculated move.

I actually think it was neither. It was a writer with a vision, that didn't really care what affect it had on the audience. He was going to follow through with his plan no matter what.

I do kind of doubt he'll have the balls to again go with such a tragic and shocking ending with BaD though, given how much money he's making nowadays. But it did have a huge warning at the beginning of the game that things may happen that will be unpleasant, etc. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[yossa999]

Wow bro, I was just asking for directions to the nearest grocery store, no need to get that worked up.

Okay, sorry for the dumb joke, but I'll try to jump on the bandwagon of your train of thought.

I don't get, if anything it got me more hyped about AVN's going forward since AL was also the first AVN i've read. Dramatic events are present in every media everywhere. Even freaking Hallmark movies do have them (I assume, maybe not ). So what is this here, the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil club?

Let me point out that you may be talking to someone who is not a native English speaker, and who is not even trying to think in English, but is mechanically translating common words and idioms from his native language.

Now about the stunt, one of the definitions of this word is from the Google's English dictionary which they claim is provided by Oxford Languages: "something unusual done to attract attention."

To me it sounds like a perfect definition of what DPC did with Maya and Josy Missy and Megan in AL. I mean, dramatic events are not taboo in AVNs, but something as shocking as the sudden death of one of the main love interest does not strike me as a very common plot device. Especially when the author makes you responsible for the choice who's going to die. In fact, very few AVN writers would dare to do it, a happy ending is the standard and trusted expectation of most players.
Was the fire situation and the death choice unexpected? I think it totally was. Did he attract a lot of attention, even if it was negative? I guess he did. So, a stunt.

Same goes for when people bring up "escapism". Like, what are they even talking about?.

About a magic dick and a harem I guess

Something like: "I don't want problems and complications in relationships with the opposite sex in the game like it happens in my real life. I want to be a pumped-up Jason Momoa MC, like in WiAB (while lying on the couch, munching on chips and never going to the gym) so that all the guys respect me, and all the girls are getting wet just from my appearance. And I want to sleep with all the girls at once and so that they don't get jealous, not like in the real life, where for cheating on my wife I will get a divorce, alimony and a reputation."
Escapism? Escapism!

I wanted to bring up Strangers on paper once more since jufot mentioned the whole marriage thing again. I think I went a little too soft on this storyline because the more I think about the less thought out it comes across...

Oh man, I bought it on Steam cause the devs are very talented and I wanted to support them, but do I like the game after the last chapter? I'm not sure.

So what's the situation here, we have Amy and Brandon about to get married, yay. Well, it's not a forced marriage and it's also not some weird/complicated family interference/whatever kind of deal. With that in mind, shouldn't they be super happy right now?. Basically at the very hight of their relationship, with sunshine and rainbows everywhere?. I just found it to be odd what's presented to us here, from a logic standpoint.

On one hand we have Brandon the asshole cheater . Like, ok?. But why would he want to marry Amy when he's happier with someone else? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to break up with Amy?. What's his gain here, to potentially pay alimony somewhere down the road?. Or is it something else, does Amy have money?. Is Amy like a trophy for him?. But even then, none of this makes any sense at all.

Are you really looking for a logical reason why a girl chooses a certain guy and stays loyal to him even though he's a jerk?

Maybe he has a chin and nose shape similar to her father and she feels cozy and protected around him. Maybe he uses the same perfume as her first love, with whom she lost her virginity. Maybe when she was a child, her parents took her to a football game and her mother told her that when she grew up, she would marry a quarterback, while buying her ice cream. And now she associates pleasure exclusively with quarterbacks.

Obviously, I'm exaggerating, but sometimes the reasons are exactly like that and there is no logic to them.

You said it yourself, she's super-Amy, she's a top cheerleader, smart, witty and sexy. She's faithful to him and puts a blind eye on his little sins. All the guys envy him when he tells over a beer how he had his way with her last night and in what positions and how she moaned... And most importantly, it seems she's his maximum level (I know how that sounds, but if we accept that he only sees her as a trophy), apparently he's too small and unimportant for the heiress from a rich family.

And what about Amy herself?. In the game she's portrayed as being the whole package. Attractive, smart, witty, ambitious, confident and so on and so forth. What a woman, right?. She basically doesn't have any real flaws, at least none that we know about. So how come that "super Amy" wants to marry assshole Brandon in the first place, just out of convenience?. Or maybe her inner clock's already ticking and she just takes whomever?. Does Brandon has some kind of hold over her?. Or maybe Amy is completely infatuated with him so that she's unable to see what's right infront of her?. All of that doesn't sound like our super Amy , does it?.

Sounds like a thousand similar characters from those romantic melodramas, where she's going to marry a guy who might not even be a bad guy, but who can't stimulate her G-spot the way MC did. But at the last moment (fucking the viewer's brain for 1h 45m), she realizes that the MC is the one she's really loved her whole life, and runs away from the altar into the sunset with MC. Yuck.

So I guess she'll end up breaking up with her fiancé. Or maybe marry him and meet the MC after a decade gap and admit how wrong she was. Then again, a thousand similar endings from pop movies.

So my question would sill be, why would Brandon not break up with Amy?

She is obedient, comfortable, has great tits and very skillful at blowjobs.

 

[NebulousShooter]

Same goes for when people bring up "escapism". Like, what are they even talking about?. First of all escapism is a vastly exaggerated word in my opinion, entertainment would be more accurate. And when I bring up entertainment, well, I dont think I have to explain this any further since we're all grown ups here. The self insert argument would also be invalid imo because self inseration is (obviously) not an AVN exclusive thing.

Its not an AVN exclusive thing, but games offer the most out of all the entertainment choices in terms of interactivity and immersion, so it is the closest thing to escaping reality. Some argue that books are, since you use your imagination, but cmon, nothing is more immersive than you making choices and experiencing the consequences of those choices.

I don't get, if anything it got me more hyped about AVN's going forward since AL was also the first AVN i've read. Dramatic events are present in every media everywhere. Even freaking Hallmark movies do have them (I assume, maybe not ). So what is this here, the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil club?.

Some things that work in one medium, don't work as well in others, or are complete deal breakers in other cases. Kinks are the best example, someone following porn flic trends would come to the wrong conclusion on what is popular in a AVN, thats why sluts are a turn off for the majority of the playerbase, yet in regular porn people can't get enough of them, the wilder and sluttier the better.

Its the same thing with other themes, they just don't work in a AVN setting, visual novels have always been from inception at their core dating simulators. Get the girl(s) and ride off into the sunset and watch the 'ending' you unlocked. The more it deviates from that formula, the smaller the audience. Make your own case if that is a good thing, or not.

As for the rest of you comment, I didn't read it since I haven't played the LDNA yet and don't want to be even more spoiled than what can already be inferred from skimming peoples posts on the topic.

 

[yossa999]

I actually think it was neither. It was a writer with a vision, that didn't really care what affect it had on the audience. He was going to follow through with his plan no matter what.

I do kind of doubt he'll have the balls to again go with such a tragic and shocking ending with BaD though, given how much money he's making nowadays. But it did have a huge warning at the beginning of the game that things may happen that will be unpleasant, etc. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I won't argue, but even his vision then worked in the right direction and brought him the hype needed for a successful kickstart to the second game.

 

[forthewins]

I won't argue, but even his vision then worked in the right direction and brought him the hype needed for a successful kickstart to the second game.

For sure. I kind of hope he goes with something just as shocking if not more so with BaD, just to watch all the mayhem that ensues.

 

[jamdan]

I'm not so sure what DPC did was a "stunt" because I don't think he did it to attract attention specifically, that was just a side-effect that ended up being beneficial.

I think this was a case of "there is no way something bad isn't going to happen" so you just have to... let it happen. The ex-GF of MC, from what I recall, was nuts. So she was dangerous, and dangerous people tend to do dangerous things.

So having her literally kill off one of the LI's ended up being the most concise and straightforward way to show that danger.
Because either way, she still would've been needed to be dealt with, and that would've involved more danger and more prolonging of the game.