Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

the choice itself is kind of confusing because it's after all meaningless and is just a concession to the nature of the medium. Another point towards superiority of kinetic novels

Couldn't agree more

 

[Finuee]

The true endings are canon. Other endings are just bad endings, like in a Choose Your Own Adventure book.

Bad endings are usually the result of picking the wrong suspect or something like that, after the game assumes you've been given enough clues to figure it out. The game honestly does a much better job than most detective games at not being too obvious while also not leaving you just completely clueless. Occasionally those can happen, but more typically if you've been paying attention you'll have one or two people you have good reason to be suspicious of and will be able to make a good educated guess.

You also have a big notebook of all the suspects and clues to help you keep track of everything, and can review the clues to often find the answer you're looking for. Also there's multiple cases you're investigating in each game, and often multiple people involved in the crimes, so this type of thing comes up more often than you'd maybe think. It's not just an end of game thing.

If you pick the wrong person when it's really critical it may result in someone dying or the suspect getting away, and then a game over screen. But then the ending also often hints at what you did wrong, by revealing more details about what's going on behind the scenes.

Nice, thanks for the information. It really sounds like something I'll like, so I'll definitely give the game(s) a try.

 

[Éama]

Thoughts on Alpha, Omega's fourth chapter? I'm particularly interested in those who are playing Alexa's path (romantically or otherwise). I just can't bring myself to it.

On the Ivan path, Lily and Taylor are far and away my favourites Both such wonderful characters.

The barrier to get on Alexas path is harsh, so I get why you hesitate. But when you are on it there is not only a very rewarding relationship blooming, but also lots of content with characters that you learned to love up to that point. It's just a different angle with meaningful differences in perspective.
Maybe wait for another 1-2 updates before you cross the barrier, but definitely give it a try later on. Or you will miss out on a decent chunk of content and insight.

 

[Raife]

I really need to try _Alpha, Omega_. Still haven't found the time. All the other AVNs in my personal queue are going to have to wait until I've played Chapter 4 of Leaving DNA, which is done and is being released.

A few updates/notes on gameplay innovations in the AVN world:

Mr. Georgie's new efforts

Mr. Georgie is doing an improved version of Reunion for Steam. I'll be first in line to check it out, given the excellence of the original game (it is on jufot's list).

Georgie is also work on a new game; he shared an early build with a few of us. It's promising, and features a new mechanic involving d20 rolls for hard choices. I like it... but BG3 had a more sophisticated version of that system, which gave you certain advantages (or re-rolls) if you'd role-played well or hit certain story forks in a very credible way (much like a real P&P style D&D campaign). I tried to convince him to implement some of these story-related tweaks, but Georgie seems to be sticking with his basic system. Still, I like the effort at innovating a bit.

The LI mechanics in Tides of Succession

Not convinced that ToS belongs on jufot's list, although the world-building is impressive. I do like the mechanic that the Dev created to manage LI relationships without a points system. Essentially, as he explains on his Patreon, it involves a sort of 'gate' system connected to certain story events and choices -- which establish a 'Primary LI' -- and other LIs that might still take the top spot. This allows for competition and jealousy mechanics that are interesting. It's not a harem game, so at a certain point the holder of the top tier becomes permanent, and the others fall away.

This seems to deal with many of the problems associated with points systems, including the story issues they can create.

Battle for Luvia is back! Maybe?

There are so many things that I love about this game: (A) the deranged world building (the dev has imagined a world in which the Holy Roman Empire created overseas colonies, and also crafted a idiosyncratic feudal/class system); (B) the super complex political dynamics and gameplay (where you can trade resources and favours for political support); (C) a web of loyalties and betrayals (which you can affect with your choices); and (D) the unique art style and realistic mix of body shapes and types.

The game manages to square the circle of giving the player a huge amount of agency in shaping the MC's personality/morality, while preserving the MC's core character and story integrity. You're essentially playing a Jamie Lannister type -- who can be noble and knightly, or a completely corrupt sex maniac, or a measure of both (Jamie was both). But he remains Jamie/Sir Patrick.

The only problem is that the Dev's ambitions are are vast, but he's an essentially a one-man band. He goes through periods of working on the game like a manaic... and then disappears for a year. Seventh (the dev) is also a prickly character who sometimes randomly goes off on you for making suggestions... and then adopts them (with thanks!). I think he's a mad genius... but his chances of finishing the game are low!

 

[forthewins]

Last time I talk about this series unprompted, I promise. But before I had posted when I was near the beginning of The Shell: Part III and now I've finished it and feel the need to share my thoughts.

This was without a doubt the most mature storytelling I've ever seen in a visual novel. I feel like Miya Suzuka -- the woman that wrote this series -- has grown leaps and bounds as a writer since the first game was released in 2008, and it was already a cut above all the rest back then.

If she had a weakness as a writer during the original game it would've been an over reliance on shock value, but that -- along with the unnecessary sex scenes -- is drastically toned down in the 2nd game, and even more so in the 3rd. There's nothing in this one that you wouldn't expect to find in a typical R rated film. (She's also written an all-ages lesbian themed series of 4 games called

You must be registered to see the links

in recent years that also contains some mystery elements. I'll be sure to check that out sometime as I need more of her writing in my life.)

I'd say the main theme of the series is grief: the different ways people experience it, and hopefully overcome it. Set in 1950s Tokyo, not that long after the conclusion of WWII, it's an area that is no stranger to grieving. And the ongoing murders obviously leave more of that in their wake.

The mystery elements were again brilliantly handled. Constantly surprising, never predictable, while also never unfair. There were again some minor issues with some of the gameplay elements (ala pixel hunting when examining a crime scene), and finding the true path was not the easiest thing to do. I did turn to a walkthrough more than once. But it's a minor nuisance that the rest of the game more than makes up for.

Also the fact that the series has shown that they're not afraid to kill a character you care about adds an amazing amount of drama to every scene. Even if nothing actually happens, you're just always on edge in a way that you typically never are in something where plot armor exists.

Worthy of note, the way this series handles "romance" is very unique, especially as the series goes on. The main character is almost asexual. It's extremely rare he expresses romantic or phsyical interest in anyone, despite us living in his head. This is partly why the sex scenes in the first game often feel so damn out of place. He's very different from your normal adult game protaganist, partly due to the past trauma of losing his fiance.

There's also a very subdued bit of a love triangle that goes on throughout the series between him and his two best friends. The woman in the group seems to have a crush on him (although she's also a widower and seems to hold herself back due to that), while his police officer best friend has a crush on her, and our main character is still hung up over his deceased fiance. It's all just a very different type of experience from your typical adult game series where love flows freely with very few consequences.

Okay, I've rambled on long enough. Though I will add that this series has made me cry before, but the final game is the only visual novel that's ever made me cry tears of happiness. As long as the more iffy areas of the first game aren't absolute deal breakers for you, I recommend everyone give the series a shot. It's as emotionally powerful as the medium gets.

 

[forthewins]

Oh, also one last thing I forgot to mention that I wanted to add.

Professional level writing. Professional original art. Professional original music. Professional voice acting (in Japanese, but still, if you've enjoyed a subbed foreign film before you know that quality acting can translate through the language barrier).

There are some independent works that blow me away that they're only made by one person. But it's hard for one person to match what a team like this can do. Which is why I really wish visual novels were more popular in the West. Maybe someday.

 

[kotte]

Okay, I've rambled on long enough.

While I am still not convinced that I would like the game, I'd like to say thank you for the thorough and nuanced write-up!
It totally sounds like a game that fits in this thread.
Perhaps it even fits into the category "games I wish that I liked"...

 

[Finuee]

Last time I talk about this series unprompted, I promise. But before I had posted when I was near the beginning of The Shell: Part III and now I've finished it and feel the need to share my thoughts.

This was without a doubt the most mature storytelling I've ever seen in a visual novel. I feel like Miya Suzuka -- the woman that wrote this series -- has grown leaps and bounds as a writer since the first game was released in 2008, and it was already a cut above all the rest back then.

If she had a weakness as a writer during the original game it would've been an over reliance on shock value, but that -- along with the unnecessary sex scenes -- is drastically toned down in the 2nd game, and even more so in the 3rd. There's nothing in this one that you wouldn't expect to find in a typical R rated film. (She's also written an all-ages lesbian themed series of 4 games called

You must be registered to see the links

in recent years that also contains some mystery elements. I'll be sure to check that out sometime as I need more of her writing in my life.)

I'd say the main theme of the series is grief: the different ways people experience it, and hopefully overcome it. Set in 1950s Tokyo, not that long after the conclusion of WWII, it's an area that is no stranger to grieving. And the ongoing murders obviously leave more of that in their wake.

The mystery elements were again brilliantly handled. Constantly surprising, never predictable, while also never unfair. There were again some minor issues with some of the gameplay elements (ala pixel hunting when examining a crime scene), and finding the true path was not the easiest thing to do. I did turn to a walkthrough more than once. But it's a minor nuisance that the rest of the game more than makes up for.

Also the fact that the series has shown that they're not afraid to kill a character you care about adds an amazing amount of drama to every scene. Even if nothing actually happens, you're just always on edge in a way that you typically never are in something where plot armor exists.

Worthy of note, the way this series handles "romance" is very unique, especially as the series goes on. The main character is almost asexual. It's extremely rare he expresses romantic or phsyical interest in anyone, despite us living in his head. This is partly why the sex scenes in the first game often feel so damn out of place. He's very different from your normal adult game protaganist, partly due to the past trauma of losing his fiance.

There's also a very subdued bit of a love triangle that goes on throughout the series between him and his two best friends. The woman in the group seems to have a crush on him (although she's also a widower and seems to hold herself back due to that), while his police officer best friend has a crush on her, and our main character is still hung up over his deceased fiance. It's all just a very different type of experience from your typical adult game series where love flows freely with very few consequences.

Okay, I've rambled on long enough. Though I will add that this series has made me cry before, but the final game is the only visual novel that's ever made me cry tears of happiness. As long as the more iffy areas of the first game aren't absolute deal breakers for you, I recommend everyone give the series a shot. It's as emotionally powerful as the medium gets.

I'm definitely going to try it. Thanks for the thorough follow-through.

 

[jufot]

Thread favourite Leaving DNA has a new update out

You must be registered to see the links

!

 

[jufot]

OK, so... Shit. Any thoughts on Leaving DNA's episode 4?

I think 3 of the 4 paths were done immensely well. Malena, the tortured woman full of contradictions, was brilliantly destructive. And Jamie's scene at the mansion felt just right. It's to his immense credit that Rockford doesn't ask Jamie to stay and just supports her. Likewise, she does the righteous thing by not letting him kiss her, knowing she's about to leave.

Aghavni has been my least favourite LI for a while, but this chapter did a lot to paint her as exactly what Rockford needs - a chance for redemption with one of the many, many women he has wronged.

Unfortunately, what happens with Emmeline in the moments leading up to the cliffhanger did a lot of damage to my impression of this game. We find out she is in fact Rockford's real sister, not Colleen, moments after they've had sex, potentially impregnating Emmeline as well.

I felt certain this was an obvious red herring, that an "oops I accidentally fucked my sister" plot was so obviously beneath a game like LDNA. I was proven wrong. The dev has confirmed its legitimacy on Discord, and that he will be removing his Patreon page to avoid being taken down. I'm just disappointed, I suppose...

 

[moskyx]

OK, so... Shit. Any thoughts on Leaving DNA's episode 4?

I think 3 of the 4 paths were done immensely well. Malena, the tortured woman full of contradictions, was brilliantly destructive. And Jamie's scene at the mansion felt just right. It's to his immense credit that Rockford doesn't ask Jamie to stay and just supports her. Likewise, she does the righteous thing by not letting him kiss her, knowing she's about to leave.

Aghavni has been my least favourite LI for a while, but this chapter did a lot to paint her as exactly what Rockford needs - a chance for redemption with one of the many, many women he has wronged.

Unfortunately, what happens with Emmeline in the moments leading up to the cliffhanger did a lot of damage to my impression of this game. We find out she is in fact Rockford's real sister, not Colleen, moments after they've had sex, potentially impregnating Emmeline as well.

I felt certain this was an obvious red herring, that an "oops I accidentally fucked my sister" plot was so obviously beneath a game like LDNA. I was proven wrong. The dev has confirmed its legitimacy on Discord, and that he will be removing his Patreon page to avoid being taken down. I'm just disappointed, I suppose...

It's a real pity. I know it's only one of the 4-5 possible paths, and I know it's quite easy to step out of it (or not even start it, to begin with) but it's obviously a key point in the story, and the whole game (or at least, a significant part of it) is probably tailored around this chance. I'd be curious to see how the dev plans these characters to explore this situation but not in the context of an AVN, for my very own personal reasons. And I get why he asked the site's staff not to add the proper tag, but hiding it is also kind of dishonest, considering there are players (like me) who would've wanted to know in advance this could also be one of those games. Oh, well.

 

[yossa999]

Why the long faces?

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[jufot]

How is he supposed to process this, especially in light of that incestuous argument with Jamie and his co-workers at the bar earlier in the game? And he was on trial for an incest case between an abusive father and his daughter? Even though his situation with Em is completely different, he can't help but draw parallels and doubt himself.

That's a big part of my disappointment, which ties neatly into my next point:

but not because the game suddenly became one of THOSE games. Why the fuck did it become THAT game? [...] This is a really cool twist that adds a whole new layer to the game.

The ONLY way this doesn't become "THAT game", as you've so nicely put, is if nothing sexual whatsoever happens again between them, ever again. Anything short will make it THAT game, and my impression from the Discord today is that the dev will go very, very short of that bar.

 

[yossa999]

That's a big part of my disappointment, which ties neatly into my next point:

The ONLY way this doesn't become "THAT game", as you've so nicely put, is if nothing sexual whatsoever happens again between them, ever again. Anything short will make it THAT game, and my impression from the Discord today is that the dev will go very, very short of that bar.

It doesn't count as THAT game in my book because there's no fetishization of what's going on between MC and Em, as I said. Even if they continue that relationship. This isn't a bum-bum between the roommates.

I guess we'll see next year. Or even later, maybe I'm wrong, but I vaguely remember Monk saying something about releasing the rest of the parts in one update at once after Part 4. But I'm not sure.

 

[moskyx]

Why the long faces?

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As I said, I'm just not interested at all on learning how these characters will deal with this revelation in the context of an AVN. Or, at the very least, I'm very cautious with the dev's future choices about it, given Jufot's insight from dev's official channels. Right now, that path looks dangerously close to a no-go zone for me, and that's a pity (selfishly speaking as a player, and also in terms of my work as a fan translator, since I'm not comfortable with that kind of content, fetishized or not -this is not simply a kink issue to me). This doesn't mean I'll drop the game, since the revelation itself without all the incestuous drama attached makes for a cool twist, as you put it, on every other path. But that's a me problem.

 

[Tlaero]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

 

[Johnny Dough]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

It could be anatomical: "I didn't know you have a dick!"

 

[GokutheG]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

They're (in)directly responsible for the turmoil in the mc's life. Can you move past the harm they caused (un)intentionally or do you still want revenge?

 

[yossa999]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

Not sure if you'll be playing LDNA and if you want spoilers, so I'll put this under the spoiler section.

Spoiler: Disclaimer: DO NOT OPEN if you have not played LDNA, intend to play it, and do not want major spoilers.

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[Finuee]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

If you don't mind me giving my own two cents, I feel those options wouldn't give the same level of impact, as they are reasons why the MC would feel the relatinship is horrible, but not reasons why the audience would. I would personally go for something more personal, like discovering the NPC is actually a horrible person, or that their being together hurts somebody else. Something along those lines.

Edited to add that GokutheG already covered this here.