Recommending Story-first games

[forthewins]

Last time I talk about this series unprompted, I promise. But before I had posted when I was near the beginning of The Shell: Part III and now I've finished it and feel the need to share my thoughts.

This was without a doubt the most mature storytelling I've ever seen in a visual novel. I feel like Miya Suzuka -- the woman that wrote this series -- has grown leaps and bounds as a writer since the first game was released in 2008, and it was already a cut above all the rest back then.

If she had a weakness as a writer during the original game it would've been an over reliance on shock value, but that -- along with the unnecessary sex scenes -- is drastically toned down in the 2nd game, and even more so in the 3rd. There's nothing in this one that you wouldn't expect to find in a typical R rated film. (She's also written an all-ages lesbian themed series of 4 games called

You must be registered to see the links

in recent years that also contains some mystery elements. I'll be sure to check that out sometime as I need more of her writing in my life.)

I'd say the main theme of the series is grief: the different ways people experience it, and hopefully overcome it. Set in 1950s Tokyo, not that long after the conclusion of WWII, it's an area that is no stranger to grieving. And the ongoing murders obviously leave more of that in their wake.

The mystery elements were again brilliantly handled. Constantly surprising, never predictable, while also never unfair. There were again some minor issues with some of the gameplay elements (ala pixel hunting when examining a crime scene), and finding the true path was not the easiest thing to do. I did turn to a walkthrough more than once. But it's a minor nuisance that the rest of the game more than makes up for.

Also the fact that the series has shown that they're not afraid to kill a character you care about adds an amazing amount of drama to every scene. Even if nothing actually happens, you're just always on edge in a way that you typically never are in something where plot armor exists.

Worthy of note, the way this series handles "romance" is very unique, especially as the series goes on. The main character is almost asexual. It's extremely rare he expresses romantic or phsyical interest in anyone, despite us living in his head. This is partly why the sex scenes in the first game often feel so damn out of place. He's very different from your normal adult game protaganist, partly due to the past trauma of losing his fiance.

There's also a very subdued bit of a love triangle that goes on throughout the series between him and his two best friends. The woman in the group seems to have a crush on him (although she's also a widower and seems to hold herself back due to that), while his police officer best friend has a crush on her, and our main character is still hung up over his deceased fiance. It's all just a very different type of experience from your typical adult game series where love flows freely with very few consequences.

Okay, I've rambled on long enough. Though I will add that this series has made me cry before, but the final game is the only visual novel that's ever made me cry tears of happiness. As long as the more iffy areas of the first game aren't absolute deal breakers for you, I recommend everyone give the series a shot. It's as emotionally powerful as the medium gets.

 

[forthewins]

Oh, also one last thing I forgot to mention that I wanted to add.

Professional level writing. Professional original art. Professional original music. Professional voice acting (in Japanese, but still, if you've enjoyed a subbed foreign film before you know that quality acting can translate through the language barrier).

There are some independent works that blow me away that they're only made by one person. But it's hard for one person to match what a team like this can do. Which is why I really wish visual novels were more popular in the West. Maybe someday.

 

[kotte]

Okay, I've rambled on long enough.

While I am still not convinced that I would like the game, I'd like to say thank you for the thorough and nuanced write-up!
It totally sounds like a game that fits in this thread.
Perhaps it even fits into the category "games I wish that I liked"...

 

[Finuee]

Last time I talk about this series unprompted, I promise. But before I had posted when I was near the beginning of The Shell: Part III and now I've finished it and feel the need to share my thoughts.

This was without a doubt the most mature storytelling I've ever seen in a visual novel. I feel like Miya Suzuka -- the woman that wrote this series -- has grown leaps and bounds as a writer since the first game was released in 2008, and it was already a cut above all the rest back then.

If she had a weakness as a writer during the original game it would've been an over reliance on shock value, but that -- along with the unnecessary sex scenes -- is drastically toned down in the 2nd game, and even more so in the 3rd. There's nothing in this one that you wouldn't expect to find in a typical R rated film. (She's also written an all-ages lesbian themed series of 4 games called

You must be registered to see the links

in recent years that also contains some mystery elements. I'll be sure to check that out sometime as I need more of her writing in my life.)

I'd say the main theme of the series is grief: the different ways people experience it, and hopefully overcome it. Set in 1950s Tokyo, not that long after the conclusion of WWII, it's an area that is no stranger to grieving. And the ongoing murders obviously leave more of that in their wake.

The mystery elements were again brilliantly handled. Constantly surprising, never predictable, while also never unfair. There were again some minor issues with some of the gameplay elements (ala pixel hunting when examining a crime scene), and finding the true path was not the easiest thing to do. I did turn to a walkthrough more than once. But it's a minor nuisance that the rest of the game more than makes up for.

Also the fact that the series has shown that they're not afraid to kill a character you care about adds an amazing amount of drama to every scene. Even if nothing actually happens, you're just always on edge in a way that you typically never are in something where plot armor exists.

Worthy of note, the way this series handles "romance" is very unique, especially as the series goes on. The main character is almost asexual. It's extremely rare he expresses romantic or phsyical interest in anyone, despite us living in his head. This is partly why the sex scenes in the first game often feel so damn out of place. He's very different from your normal adult game protaganist, partly due to the past trauma of losing his fiance.

There's also a very subdued bit of a love triangle that goes on throughout the series between him and his two best friends. The woman in the group seems to have a crush on him (although she's also a widower and seems to hold herself back due to that), while his police officer best friend has a crush on her, and our main character is still hung up over his deceased fiance. It's all just a very different type of experience from your typical adult game series where love flows freely with very few consequences.

Okay, I've rambled on long enough. Though I will add that this series has made me cry before, but the final game is the only visual novel that's ever made me cry tears of happiness. As long as the more iffy areas of the first game aren't absolute deal breakers for you, I recommend everyone give the series a shot. It's as emotionally powerful as the medium gets.

I'm definitely going to try it. Thanks for the thorough follow-through.

 

[jufot]

Thread favourite Leaving DNA has a new update out

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!

 

[jufot]

OK, so... Shit. Any thoughts on Leaving DNA's episode 4?

I think 3 of the 4 paths were done immensely well. Malena, the tortured woman full of contradictions, was brilliantly destructive. And Jamie's scene at the mansion felt just right. It's to his immense credit that Rockford doesn't ask Jamie to stay and just supports her. Likewise, she does the righteous thing by not letting him kiss her, knowing she's about to leave.

Aghavni has been my least favourite LI for a while, but this chapter did a lot to paint her as exactly what Rockford needs - a chance for redemption with one of the many, many women he has wronged.

Unfortunately, what happens with Emmeline in the moments leading up to the cliffhanger did a lot of damage to my impression of this game. We find out she is in fact Rockford's real sister, not Colleen, moments after they've had sex, potentially impregnating Emmeline as well.

I felt certain this was an obvious red herring, that an "oops I accidentally fucked my sister" plot was so obviously beneath a game like LDNA. I was proven wrong. The dev has confirmed its legitimacy on Discord, and that he will be removing his Patreon page to avoid being taken down. I'm just disappointed, I suppose...

 

[moskyx]

OK, so... Shit. Any thoughts on Leaving DNA's episode 4?

I think 3 of the 4 paths were done immensely well. Malena, the tortured woman full of contradictions, was brilliantly destructive. And Jamie's scene at the mansion felt just right. It's to his immense credit that Rockford doesn't ask Jamie to stay and just supports her. Likewise, she does the righteous thing by not letting him kiss her, knowing she's about to leave.

Aghavni has been my least favourite LI for a while, but this chapter did a lot to paint her as exactly what Rockford needs - a chance for redemption with one of the many, many women he has wronged.

Unfortunately, what happens with Emmeline in the moments leading up to the cliffhanger did a lot of damage to my impression of this game. We find out she is in fact Rockford's real sister, not Colleen, moments after they've had sex, potentially impregnating Emmeline as well.

I felt certain this was an obvious red herring, that an "oops I accidentally fucked my sister" plot was so obviously beneath a game like LDNA. I was proven wrong. The dev has confirmed its legitimacy on Discord, and that he will be removing his Patreon page to avoid being taken down. I'm just disappointed, I suppose...

It's a real pity. I know it's only one of the 4-5 possible paths, and I know it's quite easy to step out of it (or not even start it, to begin with) but it's obviously a key point in the story, and the whole game (or at least, a significant part of it) is probably tailored around this chance. I'd be curious to see how the dev plans these characters to explore this situation but not in the context of an AVN, for my very own personal reasons. And I get why he asked the site's staff not to add the proper tag, but hiding it is also kind of dishonest, considering there are players (like me) who would've wanted to know in advance this could also be one of those games. Oh, well.

 

[yossa999]

Why the long faces?

Spoiler

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[jufot]

How is he supposed to process this, especially in light of that incestuous argument with Jamie and his co-workers at the bar earlier in the game? And he was on trial for an incest case between an abusive father and his daughter? Even though his situation with Em is completely different, he can't help but draw parallels and doubt himself.

That's a big part of my disappointment, which ties neatly into my next point:

but not because the game suddenly became one of THOSE games. Why the fuck did it become THAT game? [...] This is a really cool twist that adds a whole new layer to the game.

The ONLY way this doesn't become "THAT game", as you've so nicely put, is if nothing sexual whatsoever happens again between them, ever again. Anything short will make it THAT game, and my impression from the Discord today is that the dev will go very, very short of that bar.

 

[yossa999]

That's a big part of my disappointment, which ties neatly into my next point:

The ONLY way this doesn't become "THAT game", as you've so nicely put, is if nothing sexual whatsoever happens again between them, ever again. Anything short will make it THAT game, and my impression from the Discord today is that the dev will go very, very short of that bar.

It doesn't count as THAT game in my book because there's no fetishization of what's going on between MC and Em, as I said. Even if they continue that relationship. This isn't a bum-bum between the roommates.

I guess we'll see next year. Or even later, maybe I'm wrong, but I vaguely remember Monk saying something about releasing the rest of the parts in one update at once after Part 4. But I'm not sure.

 

[moskyx]

Why the long faces?

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As I said, I'm just not interested at all on learning how these characters will deal with this revelation in the context of an AVN. Or, at the very least, I'm very cautious with the dev's future choices about it, given Jufot's insight from dev's official channels. Right now, that path looks dangerously close to a no-go zone for me, and that's a pity (selfishly speaking as a player, and also in terms of my work as a fan translator, since I'm not comfortable with that kind of content, fetishized or not -this is not simply a kink issue to me). This doesn't mean I'll drop the game, since the revelation itself without all the incestuous drama attached makes for a cool twist, as you put it, on every other path. But that's a me problem.

 

[Tlaero]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

 

[Johnny Dough]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

It could be anatomical: "I didn't know you have a dick!"

 

[GokutheG]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

They're (in)directly responsible for the turmoil in the mc's life. Can you move past the harm they caused (un)intentionally or do you still want revenge?

 

[yossa999]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

Not sure if you'll be playing LDNA and if you want spoilers, so I'll put this under the spoiler section.

Spoiler: Disclaimer: DO NOT OPEN if you have not played LDNA, intend to play it, and do not want major spoilers.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Finuee]

What I'm reading is that you folks like that there's a twist, but you don't like this twist. That's totally fair. Incest is an incredibly charged subject. But, since you like that there's a twist, let's spend some time brainstorming on other kinds of twists that wouldn't ruin the game for you. (Not suggesting that this game change. I'm suggesting that we come up with possibilities for other games from whichever devs.)

The basic start for the brainstorm is: "MC has a sexual relationship with an NPC, then discovers something that makes the relationship horrible."

It could be warring families. "I didn't know you were a Montague!"

It could be a class thing. "I didn't know you were poor!" or "I didn't know you were a slave!"

It could be political. "I didn't know you were a <liberal/conservative>!" or "I didn't know you were from <insert country here>!"

It could be religion. "I didn't know you were an <insert religion here>! My faith forbids me from dating those people."

It could be a health thing. "I didn't know you only have a month to live!" or "I didn't know you have an infectious disease!"

It could be something magical. "I didn't know you were a demon!" or "I didn't know you were a zombie!"

It could be something technological. "I didn't know you were an android!"

It could be something psychological. It's all happening in your head, and the person you're dating is actually yourself.

Can you folks think of more?

Tlaero

If you don't mind me giving my own two cents, I feel those options wouldn't give the same level of impact, as they are reasons why the MC would feel the relatinship is horrible, but not reasons why the audience would. I would personally go for something more personal, like discovering the NPC is actually a horrible person, or that their being together hurts somebody else. Something along those lines.

Edited to add that GokutheG already covered this here.

 

[realjitter]

A new year, a new AVN

Strangers on paper (Full spoilers ahead)

It's a bit strange because I remember giving this one a try a while ago already and just wasn't feeling it for whatever reason. I played like 10 minutes of it and then just closed it and just let it sit there until I eventually forgot all about it... But now I gave it another shot and it turned out to be pretty amazing to be honest. Right up there, although different, with something like short sad stories in my opinion.

First of all, I was surprised about the level of detail when it comes to the writing and the characters. Not only that, also the consistency of it. Cynical me was pretty certain about how the story would unfold and what the LI's would be like after their initial introduction, but I was proven wrong.. To a point at least.

Well, the only thing i ended up predicting correctly was the reason why Amy and her future husband would (eventually) break up. That was the only, in my mind, missed opportunity where the developer could've challenged him/herself a bit more from a writing perspective. But that's just a minor thing which also doesn't really matter because the rest of it turned out to be so nicely interwoven.

I mean, sure, at first glance it does come across a bit corny. I think that was also the reason why I abandoned it back then. We have Amy, the ex cheerleader and Becca the "emo girl". We've seen those tropes plenty of times already in all kinds of media. But again, the devil lies in the detail. Or, in this case, the writing and how you handle said tropes.

Becca for example, the sexy, "mysterious" girl. Probably the more problematic of the 2 storylines. It's kinda funny because the MC sees her as being a more mature girl. I mean, as of yet, we don't have all the information about what's really going on with her. Just some vague information about her family and whatnot, but nothing definite. So I can just speculate, but to me she behaves, to a degree, more like a teenager up to this point. Either that or she has some more serious problems of some kind. Slightly traumatized?, depressive tendencies?, I don't know. I could also be wrong here and it just simply takes longer for her to open up... it's hard to tell.

It's just that she appears almost absent in some scenes, caught up in her head. Then she changes her behaviour, but shuts down again right after..... I don't know, i'd be a little bit worried I guess. Which brings me back to the teenager thing, if she would be 16 yo I wouldtn't think much of it, but she's a YA. There are quite a few scenes I could bring up here that would hint at something like that, but...maybe not.

This can also become problematic for the MC because he too is portrayed as being more of an introvert, sensible guy, which I thought was an interesting choice for the MC. It's just way harder to write that kind of guy than to write the more straight forward dude. That was actually the part I paid most attention to. Like, can I really by into him or is he just supposed to be a romance template to fit the girls?.

Besides that, I did like the "cliffhanger" of chapter 2. For most people I imagine this was a big yawn/whatever, but I thought it was an interesting and unexpected choice with the break up of his parents. We do know that the MC is on good terms with his mother and we also know that he's ok with his father based the phone call they had. So you can't just go with the "He was an asshole anyways and i'm glad that he's finally gone" storyline. This should have some, most likely negative, impact on him going forward.

As for Amy?. Well, at first glance this does seem to be the more complicated storyline of the two with her about to get married and all that.. But, as I mentioned earlier, the whole reveal about him being just a cheater took away a bit of the wind out of the sails, from my perspective. But then again, I do have to assume that the developer is not a professional writer and with that in mind he/she's doing a pretty good job here regardless.

Speaking of good job, the last thing I wanted to mention are the lewd scenes, or scene in this case. As the story went on it occured to me that going with just your standart AVN porn animation could've really hurt this AVN. Thankfuly the developer agreed with me here and didn't do that. Quite the opposite actually, we do get to learn more about Becca in that scene. And by that I don't mean that she apparently has a bit of a dominant streak going on. "Did I studder?" was probebly my favourite line of the game .

Anyway, i'm gonna stop rambling here. You really would need to see the finished product in order to talk about it properly. Anything i've mentioned above could be just way, way off.....

So overall, a pretty well crafted and fleshed out AVN and also a bit of an oddity amongst AVN's in general...

Small scale on the outside, big scale on the inside

 

[jufot]

But, as I mentioned earlier, the whole reveal about him being just a cheater took away a bit of the wind out of the sails, from my perscpective

It is my only real complaint about the story so far. It would have been far more interesting if the fiancé was just boring and uninteresting. Making him a cheater gives Amy an easy, socially acceptable out. There is no real conflict to it. Leaving a good guy just because he is bland would be a proper challenge, and maybe even a moral dilemma.

But then again, I do have to assume that the developer is not a professional writer and with that in mind he/she's doing a pretty good job here regardless.

She (the writer is a woman) said on Patreon that she has some published short stories out there, but when asked, she wasn't willing to share them as there is no way to do it anonymously.

Speaking of good job, the last thing I wanted to mention are the lewd scenes, or scene in this case.

It is the absolute gold standard for AVN sex scenes. It's unique enough to have a sex scene from the female perspective, but everything about it - the writing, composition, score, lighting - is all leagues ahead of the competition.

 

[realjitter]

She (the writer is a woman) said on Patreon that she has some published short stories out there, but when asked, she wasn't willing to share them as there is no way to do it anonymously.

Autsch, that makes the things I wrote sound like a bit of an insult . But yeah, I can see that. I mean. there's quite a lot of dialogue which has a double meaning + the overall attention to detail.. Again, it's pretty good.

 

[Johnny Dough]

Not sure if you'll be playing LDNA and if you want spoilers, so I'll put this under the spoiler section.

Spoiler: Disclaimer: DO NOT OPEN if you have not played LDNA, intend to play it, and do not want major spoilers.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I've been thinking about this incest thing lately because every time I see an incest-tagged game I cringe and think, "Oh, no! Another incest game in 2025!" (Or earlier because I already started to feel like this sometime between 2023 and 2024.) I'm not a moralist, so this is not the issue. When I started playing AVNs, I approached the incest genre with an open mind. There are some of these games I like because they integrate the theme into their plots and make something good out of it (usually, something funny). There are also others that could do without it but have nice stories, so I like them despite the incest. Nowadays, however, I only see repetitions of the same themes, nothing new on the table, and a series of clichés that only serve as fanservice.

About your post, specifically, I think those things work in the non-AVN world (see, for instance, the amazing movie Oldboy, and, way earlier, the classic Oedipus Rex). In the AVN universe, however, I think most people play/read those games/stories to have a good time and enjoy themselves (I'm not saying they are stupid... it's fair to have hobbies to relax the mind, and I believe that despite this, they or, at least, some of them may have more intellectual interests in other areas); and I'm saying this because I believe that here, in the AVN world, those who enjoy those shocking twists that could spoil their fun are probably a minority. I would like it because I like to see the world burn (figuratively, of course), but the majority would either stay because it's their kink—and, thus, not a shocking twist but a gift— or would be driven away because it's not their kink, and they've been put off by the twist.

For instance, in my previous post—which was supposed to be more of a joke than something serious—, the scene works great in a movie, but, if it was here, I don't doubt a pitchfork mob would be formed asking for the dev's head (of course, there would be those who would like it, but they would probably be playing games that tells them in advance what to expect). Thus, since those who would like those twists qua twist are not there for the sex, maybe this would work better in a non-"adult" VN (i.e., without explicit sex).

Well... These are just my impressions. Of course, it's all open to debate and, in fact, I would welcome it.