Recommending Story-first games

[bacienvu88]

You won't be surprised to hear that I had similar reactions to both updates: _Rebirth_ and _Price of Power_ have shifted back into gear after a series of rather dull episodes that either introduced peripheral characters, or engaged in excessive exposition/wheel spinning. (Likesblodes had an even worse issue along these lines with his first game... which had an exceedingly tedious, over-long, middle section that only picked up near the end.)

It must be difficult, as a dev, to create both a compelling overall story arc _and_ gripping individual episodes. These two games have great arcs, but the mileage definitely varies episode-by-episode. (Unlike, say, _Hillside_, which is almost always great...)

Rebirth actually have pretty good episodes. Each individual update often feels a bit lackluster though.

I think many AVN:s would benefit more from not thinking of the entirety of the plot as one single huge novel. But instead see it as several smaller light novels or similar. Or think of how TV series does individual episodes together with season arcs.

EDIT: And regarding Rebirth, I'm enjoying the discussions and speculations of the plot more than the actual game currently.

 

[realjitter]

Absolutely: there's nothing more dull than mechanical sex involving LI-harems that abandon personality and agency in pursuit of an inexplicably attractive MC.

The trouble is, as we've discussed many times before, it's difficult to create really compelling stories, characters or eroticism without touching on feelings of uncertainty, pain, loss or jealousy. Given the anti-NTR fanaticism and general preference for escapism on this site, games that generate those emotions tend to get dogpiled or simply fail to find a mass audience.

It's a shame... although I am always encouraged by the devs on this thread who ignore those considerations and try to create compelling narratives and characters.

Yep, without NTR AVN's are doomed longterm to do the same shit over and and over again...
Good developers can of course still work with what they have and come up with good/decent stories to still make up for it, but generally speaking it's pretty sad.

Honestly i didn't even know about the term NTR before i discovered this forum And that's coming from someone who was more or less active on a fetish forum for several years...
So when i found out what this was about i was like ..What?, excuse me?, for real?

Well, i remember back when i discovered this site months after playing Acting lesseons i was so sure about what i would find..
Especially after reading that those games are supposed to be dating sims...
I thought that people would come up with those "rollercoaster of emotions" type of scenarios where basically everything can happen. But yeah, turns out AVNs are "just" PVN's (pornographic visual novels) how i like to call them...
You never have to develop personal skills in order to pursue some1 (like it would be in an actual game)..
You don't need to deal with anykind of real emotions, or different opinions... there's no real friction. There can't be without those things. The only friction that Developers can resort to is giving their female cast a tragic background or whatever zzZzz. And often times that "background" is all girls simply being virgins..

You'll never be able to create a somewhat believable "dating sim" with a bigger cast of females without things like rejection (some degree of it at least), rivalry, arguing, being challenged about opinios... basically all the ups and downs you have to potentially deal with when you go outside yourself and try to meet someone new..

And i'm not saying somebody should create like a super serious, ultra deep, ultra detailed, real life simulation, but the thing is that all those games we are talking about already have a choice systems integrated, so i'm somewhat confident people could come up with something at least a little more in depth...

I'm also not trying to say PVN's are a bad thing, hell no, never.
I like to "play" a generic porn game sometimes. Of course they all have a right to be here (obviously), It's a innocent thing and people are supposed to have fun and all. And if that means people want to indulge in some harem fantasy that's cool and all, but the fact that the majority of people are apparently so apprehensive against anykind of different approaches when it comes to AVN's is a little scary to be honest and also a little creepy..

If you read comments like "Ey dude i liked your AVN it's super deep and all, but there was that one scene where that girl wanted to have her toes sucked...no thanks, you gross fuck 1/5 stars...."

I don't know, for some reason people turn religious or some shit (the bad kind of religious) when it comes to AVN's..

 

[bacienvu88]

I think the basic problem with most AVN:s are that they are designed to be self-inserts. You have an MC and the POV is almost always from that MC. Specifically you never make choices for anyone else than the MC. The player can select the name for the MC implying that the player should user their own name for extra immersion. You are supposed to get into the role of the MC. This leads to religiousness about fetishes and choices etc. because of course I want my character to do experience exactly the sex scenes I fantasize aboout. And I don't want to be cheated on or NTR'd etc. And so on.

In addition to that the MC POV limits how much can be described and the choices made by other characters. Limiting what kinds of scenes and situations can be done.

 

[Jaike]

Yep, without NTR AVN's are doomed longterm to do the same shit over and and over again...
Good developers can of course still work with what they have and come up with good/decent stories to still make up for it, but generally speaking it's pretty sad.

Honestly i didn't even know about the term NTR before i discovered this forum And that's coming from someone who was more or less active on a fetish forum for several years...
So when i found out what this was about i was like ..What?, excuse me?, for real?

Well, i remember back when i discovered this site months after playing Acting lesseons i was so sure about what i would find..
Especially after reading that those games are supposed to be dating sims...
I thought that people would come up with those "rollercoaster of emotions" type of scenarios where basically everything can happen. But yeah, turns out AVNs are "just" PVN's (pornographic visual novels) how i like to call them...
You never have to develop personal skills in order to pursue some1 (like it would be in an actual game)..
You don't need to deal with anykind of real emotions, or different opinions... there's no real friction. There can't be without those things. The only friction that Developers can resort to is giving their female cast a tragic background or whatever zzZzz. And often times that "background" is all girls simply being virgins..

You'll never be able to create a somewhat believable "dating sim" with a bigger cast of females without things like rejection (some degree of it at least), rivalry, arguing, being challenged about opinios... basically all the ups and downs you have to potentially deal with when you go outside yourself and try to meet someone new..

And i'm not saying somebody should create like a super serious, ultra deep, ultra detailed, real life simulation, but the thing is that all those games we are talking about already have a choice systems integrated, so i'm somewhat confident people could come up with something at least a little more in depth...

I'm also not trying to say PVN's are a bad thing, hell no, never.
I like to "play" a generic porn game sometimes. Of course they all have a right to be here (obviously), It's a innocent thing and people are supposed to have fun and all. And if that means people want to indulge in some harem fantasy that's cool and all, but the fact that the majority of people are apparently so apprehensive against anykind of different approaches when it comes to AVN's is a little scary to be honest and also a little creepy..

If you read comments like "Ey dude i liked your AVN it's super deep and all, but there was that one scene where that girl wanted to have her toes sucked...no thanks, you gross fuck 1/5 stars...."

I don't know, for some reason people turn religious or some shit (the bad kind of religious) when it comes to AVN's..

Actual NTR is like the stalest, porniest and most misogynist genre around, so I don't see how it could make things less porny or less repetitive. Since you seem to be getting at something else entirely, it'd be better marketing to use a different word.

 

[realjitter]

I think the basic problem with most AVN:s are that they are designed to be self-inserts. You have an MC and the POV is almost always from that MC. Specifically you never make choices for anyone else than the MC. The player can select the name for the MC implying that the player should user their own name for extra immersion. You are supposed to get into the role of the MC. This leads to religiousness about fetishes and choices etc. because of course I want my character to do experience exactly the sex scenes I fantasize aboout. And I don't want to be cheated on or NTR'd etc. And so on.

In addition to that the MC POV limits how much can be described and the choices made by other characters. Limiting what kinds of scenes and situations can be done.

I did that once with Acting lessons where i played with my real name at first, but it was just so awkward , i had to restart right away and i made up some random, easy to read, whatever name which i'm still using to this day. I just don't see anyway i could pretend to fantasy roleplay me being the MC..it's impossible because i would always act differently then what the games suggests, always..
But i can see that being a thing? i don't knoiw, that is a pretty complex topic i guess

 

[bacienvu88]

I did that once with Acting lessons where i played with my real name at first, but it was just so awkward , i had to restart right away and i made up some random, easy to read, whatever name which i'm still using to this day. I just don't see anyway i could pretend to fantasy roleplay me being the MC..it's impossible because i would always act differently then what the games suggests, always..
But i can see that being a thing? i don't knoiw, that is a pretty complex topic i guess

When you select choices (that actually matter rather than simple point-maximizing). Do you think "What would the MC do given their character so far?" or do you select on your own preference?

 

[realjitter]

Actual NTR is like the stalest, porniest and most misogynist genre around, so I don't see how it could make things less porny or less repetitive. Since you seem to be getting at something else entirely, it'd be better marketing to use a different word.

So, what word do you sugguest i should use?.

To me NTR the way i understood it is a scenario like this :

MC enters a bar and stumbles across a LI. (sexychick69) They talk and the MC accumulates his first "love points" with her or whatever and after some time you see a guy walking towards you. The guy starts to passionately kiss that girl in front of you and the girl says : Oh, by the way, this is MrX he's my boyfriend...The conversation continues until they decide to leave, ending with sexychick69 saying "See you later MC, it was nice talking to you"...and then MrX says " come on honey, let's go"

Someone correct me if am completly off when it comes to NTR....

 

[realjitter]

When you select choices (that actually matter rather than simple point-maximizing). Do you think "What would the MC do given their character so far?" or do you select on your own preference?

It's 50/50 i think, because if you only go with what the MC wants you almost always end up fucking eveybody and their mother, because the games are simply written that way. In my mind i'm doing some damage control most of the time

 

[moskyx]

So, what word do you sugguest i should use?.

To me NTR the way i understood it is a scenario like this :

MC enters a bar and stumbles across a LI. (sexychick69) They talk and the MC accumulates his first "love points" with her or whatever and after some time you see a guy walking towards you. The guy starts to passionately kiss that girl in front of you and the girl says : Oh, by the way, this is MrX he's my boyfriend...The conversation continues until they decide to leave, ending with sexychick69 saying "See you later MC, it was nice talking to you"...and then MrX says " come on honey, let's go"

Someone correct me if am completly off when it comes to NTR....

Technically, yes, you are completely off. That is not an NTR situation, but a completely logical and natural way to introduce a potential LI who is just an ordinary and functional person, who happens to be in a relationship when you meet her. Depending on how the story develops, though, you could be facing an actual NTR situation down the road, but that setting is not NTR per se according to the term's original definition.

Sadly, in this forum, a potential LI doing as much as looking to any other male (be it human or from any other species) is publicly labeled as NTR, so I understand the confusion. And yes, I didn't knew either what NTR was before getting lectured on this site. But now I know it's not what the general opinion in this forum seems to believe it is.

 

[realjitter]

Technically, yes, you are completely off. That is not an NTR situation, but a completely logical and natural way to introduce a potential LI who is just an ordinary and functional person, who happens to be in a relationship when you meet her. Depending on how the story develops, though, you could be facing an actual NTR situation down the road, but that setting is not NTR per se according to the term's original definition.

Sadly, in this forum, a potential LI doing as much as looking to any other male (be it human or from any other species) is publicly labeled as NTR, so I understand the confusion. And yes, I didn't knew either what NTR was before getting lectured on this site. But now I know it's not what the general opinion in this forum seems to believe it is.

Alright, i looked it up and NTR is basically adultery....
This is confusing, i'm a simple man, i just like to see variety when it comes to AVN games...

 

[bacienvu88]

It's 50/50 i think, because if you only go with what the MC wants you almost always end up fucking eveybody and their mother, because the games are simply written that way. In my mind i'm doing some damage control most of the time

Which ties in with my point. The way typical AVN:s are written means the lines between the player and the MC are blurred.

 

[moskyx]

Alright, i looked it up and NTR is basically adultery....
This is confusing, i'm a simple man, i just like to see variety when it comes to AVN games...

No, is not that either. It's more complex than adultery. NTR is a special relationship in which one of the people involved actively seeks to humiliate their partner by having sex with other people; for this to work, the 'victim' must know what is going on and submit, sometimes being forced to watch them fucking, while showing how much it pains him/her.

Everything else is, well, other things, but not pure NTR. Which I agree is confusing. I just don't care about all these labels and tags, but people seem to be extremely sensitive about their lewd pixels.

 

[realjitter]

No, is not that either. It's more complex than adultery. NTR is a special relationship in which one of the people involved actively seeks to humiliate their partner by having sex with other people; for this to work, the 'victim' must know what is going on and submit, sometimes being forced to watch them fucking, while showing how much it pains him/her.

Everything else is, well, other things, but not pure NTR. Which I agree is confusing. I just don't care about all these labels and tags, but people seem to be extremely sensitive about their lewd pixels.

Excuse me, but that sounds more like a form of forced cuckolding to me.
But... whatever it is in it's entirety, it just sounds so, fucking niche...Why is it even a thing when like almost no games have it in it? Was there like a famous game in the past that crushed peoples souls and left a mark for years to come or what is it about NTR?
Or is it like a cool kids term people like to throw around without really knowing what it's about? (like me apparently lol)

 

[moskyx]

Excuse me, but that sounds more like a form of forced cuckolding to me.
But... whatever it is in it's entirety, it just sounds so, fucking niche...Why is it even a thing when like almost no games have it in it? Was there like a famous game in the past that crushed peoples souls and left a mark for years to come or what is it about NTR?
Or is it like a cool kids term people like to throw around without really knowing what it's about? (like me apparently lol)

Yes, forced cuckolding is accurate. It's a Japanese genre and apparently very popular there. In the Western it has become a sad meme

 

[jufot]

I did that once with Acting lessons where i played with my real name at first, but it was just so awkward , i had to restart right away and i made up some random, easy to read, whatever name which i'm still using to this day.

I think I mentioned this here before, but I'm the same way. If the game offers a default name, I use that. If I'm forced to choose, I always go with James. I'm not actually James. I don't even know a James. I picked it randomly the first time an AVN forced me to, and it just stuck with me.

No, is not that either. It's more complex than adultery. NTR is a special relationship in which one of the people involved actively seeks to humiliate their partner by having sex with other people; for this to work, the 'victim' must know what is going on and submit, sometimes being forced to watch them fucking, while showing how much it pains him/her.

Exactly. realjitter for a great example of an actual NTR game, I can recommend The Edge Of. It's cerebral. Really fucks with the MC's head, and fits moskyx's definition to a tee.

 

[jufot]

badtimetales and a few others on this thread have recommended The Seven Realms and I just finished playing it. I liked it! Minor spoilers below.

It's Twilight if it was written by a competent author I know, I know, hold your horses. That sounds like damning with faint praise, but it's not! Imagine the overall worldbuilding of Twilight (I only saw the first film, don't judge me) without all the teenage angst, smouldering looks and sparkling vampires.

Edward Atlas is a jacked dude and heir to the vamp throne. Bella Leyala is a naive, innocent not-really-human woman who shares an as-yet-unexplained bond with Atlas that just pulls them together, carnally I know, I know, keep reading. Atlas saves Leyala from Jacob a bunch of werewolves who want to kill her, for unknown reasons.

That's where the similarities end. The world here is larger and more well established, and there is a bigger picture surrounding the vamp king Lucius, his dead wife Effie, court machinations and treasonous people in high-powered positions. It's a well-written story, and I'm curious to see where it goes next.

As for the porn, I'm pleasantly surprised. Atlas is kind and respectful of boundaries. Everything happens on Leyala's speed. As of update 2, the two of them have been in a de facto exclusive relationship for more than half a year, without ever having PIV sex! Can you think of any other AVN with something like that? I can't.

Tropes? A few, but it's much better than most. Atlas (the game discourages you from changing the default name) still has a porn-sized dick, but it's not a baseball bat. He's also 200% muscle by body mass, but it looks less like physical perfection and more like steroid abuse

The most interesting, and frustrating thing here is that Seven Realms has a unique construct where certain monogamous people experience physical pain (potentially causing death) if their partner cheats on them. We find out Leyala is one such person. I mean, imagine the possibilities! Could this be the holy grail of AVNs? Could it actually punish the player for being a lecher?

Well, no Leyala tells Atlas that despite the physical pain she suffers, it excites her to imagine him fucking others, and while she has no intention of doing it herself (for... reasons), she wants him to be able to fuck around.



Still, this is most definitely a story-first game, and the porn logic is kept to a surprising minimum, so the game has been added to the OP! The dev has intentions for a fairly massive harem with Leyala being the "main" girl, so I reserve the right to pull it off the list if the nonsense gets too excessive

---
P.S: The dev does a great job with facial expressions, and especially with eye contact. Below is my favourite picture from the game so far. Her eyes are screaming "fuck me!" and it's just brilliant

 

[Raife]

Or is it like a cool kids term people like to throw around without really knowing what it's about? (like me apparently lol)

Moskyx and Jaike have given you the right guidance, jitter, and you have drawn the right conclusions:

• NTR refers to a specific, highly niche kink that is present almost exclusively in a genre of Japanese adult games. There's another, completely different Netori kink which is sometimes present in the same games, but is usually addressed in a quite separate Japanese game genre. The bottom line is that very, very few games actually contain the NTR kink -- it is extremely niche.
• The trouble is that the august authorities who run this wonderful website, may they live forever (that is, the semi-sentient mouth-breathing simians who stumblebum about this chaotic hellsite.) have somehow allowed NTR to be defined as any action that "inspires jealousy in the MC." There are two problems with this genius decision: (1) it is wrong, because that's literally not Netorare, and (2) since jealousy is subjective, and some players are _extremely_ sensitive, it has essentially allowed NTR to be defined as 'any situation in which _any_ player/MC might feel a slight twinge of jealousy.'

Why does all of this matter? Because, as Jaike observes, there are a large number of players who dislike NTR games intensely; any game slapped with an NTR label will lose a substantial portion of its potential audience. That, in turn, has led many, many devs (including some that I respect a great deal) to publicly disavow any possibility of 'NTR' in their games -- which is, in essence, a disavowal of any potential feelings of discomfort or jealousy. (You can see this in the 'dev notes' sections in OPs.)

The impact on potential story-first games has been baleful: many devs now avoid creating non-gay (or literally castrated!) male NPCs in games with a Male MC, lest they be labelled 'NTR.' It kills realism, disempowers characters -- and has contributed to the proliferation of boring 'harem' games.

If you spend half a second thinking about great literature, you'll find examples of jealousy or potential jealousy _everywhere_... all of that feeling and emotional resonance would earn an NTR tag on this site.

 

[Raife]

badtimetales
Still, this is most definitely a story-first game, and the porn logic is kept to a surprising minimum, so the game has been added to the OP! The dev has intentions for a fairly massive harem with Leyala being the "main" girl, so I reserve the right to pull it off the list if the nonsense gets too excessive

Jufot recommends a game with a harem tag ... now this I gotta see!

 

[Raife]

I think I mentioned this here before, but I'm the same way. If the game offers a default name, I use that. If I'm forced to choose, I always go with James. I'm not actually James. I don't even know a James. I picked it randomly the first time an AVN forced me to, and it just stuck with me.

One of many, many ways in which we are oddly similar... I have a name that I _always_ use to play male MCs in these games: it's not my name, or the name of anyone I know... but it's my alter-ego for these games.

My wife likes to say that it's still me, but with my id dialled up and my superego dialled down. In other words, it's me at my best AND my worst.

 

[moskyx]

Moskyx and Jaike have given you the right guidance, jitter, and you have drawn the right conclusions:

• NTR refers to a specific, highly niche kink that is present almost exclusively in a genre of Japanese adult games. There's another, completely different Netori kink which is sometimes present in the same games, but is usually addressed in a quite separate Japanese game genre. The bottom line is that very, very few games actually contain the NTR kink -- it is extremely niche.
• The trouble is that the august authorities who run this wonderful website, may they live forever (that is, the semi-sentient mouth-breathing simians who stumblebum about this chaotic hellsite.) have somehow allowed NTR to be defined as any action that "inspires jealousy in the MC." There are two problems with this genius decision: (1) it is wrong, because that's literally not Netorare, and (2) since jealousy is subjective, and some players are _extremely_ sensitive, it has essentially allowed NTR to be defined as 'any situation in which _any_ player/MC might feel a slight twinge of jealousy.'

Why does all of this matter? Because, as Jaike observes, there are a large number of players who dislike NTR games intensely; any game slapped with an NTR label will lose a substantial portion of its potential audience. That, in turn, has led many, many devs (including some that I respect a great deal) to publicly disavow any possibility of 'NTR' in their games -- which is, in essence, an disavowal of any potential feelings of discomfort or jealousy. (You can see this in the 'dev notes' sections in OPs.)

The impact on potential story-first games has been baleful: many devs now avoid creating non-gay (or literally castrated!) male NPCs in games with a Male MC, lest they be labelled 'NTR.' It kills realism, disempowers characters -- and has contributed to the proliferation of boring 'harem' games.

If you spend half a second thinking about great literature, you'll find examples of jealousy or potential jealousy _everywhere_... all of that feeling and emotional resonance would earn an NTR tag on this site.

I don't think there's a problem with the actual use of the tag. It's not as bad as you make it sound, mods usually assign the tag properly (at least, according to the site's tagging rules). But the game thread is going to be derailed by those claiming for the NTR tag to be added when it shouldn't, and some will effectively harass the game's dev as soon as any other male character could be seen as a potential threat to our MC. That's the real problem: people either don't read the tag rules to know when the tag applies, or simply understand 'to create jealously in the MC' as in 'to create jealously on the player, even though the MC may be OK with it'. And then we get what you said about the hypersensitivity of a very vocal userbase.