Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

I don't think there's a problem with the actual use of the tag. It's not as bad as you make it sound, mods usually assign the tag properly (at least, according to the site's tagging rules). But the game thread is going to be derailed by those claiming for the NTR tag to be added when it shouldn't, and some will effectively harass the game's dev as soon as any other male character could be seen as a potential threat to our MC. That's the real problem: people either don't read the tag rules to know when the tag applies, or simply understand 'to create jealously in the MC' as in 'to create jealously on the player, even though the MC may be OK with it'. And then we get what you said about the hypersensitivity of a very vocal userbase.

Yeah, I mostly agree. The main problem is not excessive NTR tagging, but self-censorship to avoid potential tagging or dogpiling.

There is still a problem with overuse of NTR tags, though. I favour a _very_ narrow definition of NTR that takes us closer to the original Japanese meaning. For example, a LI that cheats should should _not_ earn the game an NTR tag, if it lacks the semi-masochism usually present in those Japanese games. It should just be tagged as 'cheating.'

 

[jufot]

Jufot recommends a game with a harem tag ... now this I gotta see!

In my defence, there is no harem in the game as of v0.2, and I did say I might remove it from the list in the future

 

[moskyx]

Yeah, I mostly agree. The main problem is not excessive tagging, but self-censorship to avoid potential tagging or dogpiling.

Totally agree with the self-censorship, it was kind of my point. Nobody likes to deal with a bunch of aggressive people complaining about a certain topic you can 'easily' avoid by just not adding any other straight male character.

There is still a problem with overuse of tags, though. I favour a _very_ narrow definition of NTR that takes us closer to the original Japanese meaning. For example, a LI that cheats should should _not_ earn the game an NTR tag, if it lacks the semi-masochism usually present in those Japanese games. It should just be tagged as 'cheating.'

There is already a 'cheating' tag, and also a 'sharing' one for those games in which the MC's partner has sex with other people with the MC's acknowledgment (or even encouragement) and without creating jealousy in him. And since this is a controversial topic that forces mods to intervene quite often in those game's threads, these tags are usually well placed, according to their definition in site's rules. But in those threads you'll find the vocal group asking for the NTR tag to be added either way, plus people genuinely asking for details on the exact nature of the content tagged, since those tags are still a bit broad (like, is the MC cheating or being cheated?), which can be tiresome and annoying, and leads us to the first point: why bother dealing with this when you can just create a safe world for these people.

 

[Raife]

Totally agree with the self-censorship, it was kind of my point. Nobody likes to deal with a bunch of aggressive people complaining about a certain topic you can 'easily' avoid by just not adding any other straight male character.

But in those threads you'll find the vocal group asking for the NTR tag to be added either way, plus people genuinely asking for details on the exact nature of the content tagged, since those tags are still a bit broad (like, is the MC cheating or being cheated?)

Agreed. Plus, there are those instances when an NTR tag is not demanded, but the dev is still subjected to semi-bullying for putting the MC in a situation where an LI might be attracted to another man. Tlaero ran into that problem a few months ago, as you will remember (not least because you spent a great deal of time -- rightly -- defending her). I certainly don't blame the mods for situations like that... although they could do a better job cracking down on shitposting that edges into harassment.

 

[desmosome]

Totally agree with the self-censorship, it was kind of my point. Nobody likes to deal with a bunch of aggressive people complaining about a certain topic you can 'easily' avoid by just not adding any other straight male character.


There is already a 'cheating' tag, and also a 'sharing' one for those games in which the MC's partner has sex with other people with the MC's acknowledgment (or even encouragement) and without creating jealousy in him. And since this is a controversial topic that forces mods to intervene quite often in those game's threads, these tags are usually well placed, according to their definition in site's rules. But in those threads you'll find the vocal group asking for the NTR tag to be added either way, plus people genuinely asking for details on the exact nature of the content tagged, since those tags are still a bit broad (like, is the MC cheating or being cheated?), which can be tiresome and annoying, and leads us to the first point: why bother dealing with this when you can just create a safe world for these people.

There is actually no sharing tag, which is annoying. There is a swinging tag, which is too narrow to encompass other forms of sharing. I keep saying that we need a blanket, "non-MC sex" tag to cover all the situations where NTR is being misused.

Jumping into this discussion, I'd like to offer some viewpoints as an avid NTR enjoyer. The discussion is mostly on the right track. There is a vast difference between actual NTR and what sparks the usual dogpiling in "NTR games that are not tagged as such."

NTR means "to be stolen by sleeping with," or something along those lines. That stolen part is very important and a core aspect of NTR that isn't necessarily found in standard cheating. Jealousy and all that shit is just a secondary effect and not the core criteria. That said, negative emotions, not necessarily limited to jealousy is very often present. Without getting to deep, what does this mean as a tag?

NTR is not an act, it is a theme. A deliberate theme created with intent by the dev or writer. Some girl banging a non-MC dude can be a huge number of different things, but it's really fucking hard to create NTR accidentally, and it certainly doesn't hinge on some player feeling jealous on behalf of the MC.

To get into it a bit more, how is this theme of NTR constructed? In the vast majority of cases, it follows the standard progression.

1. Initial peaceful state of the male and female protagonists.
2. Introduction of the antagonist.
3. Corruption arc of the female by the antagonist dick.
4. NTR reveal and fallen heroine (mind broken, cock addicted, whored, etc.).

Throughout this progression, the female loses her close bond with the male protagonist and is thus stolen. This bond doesn't even have to be a romantic one. It just has to be a close bond, but a bond has to be there for it to be broken.

So yea, NTR is pretty specific right? It takes deliberate intent to make NTR. There are some overlap with the western styled cuckolding and the broader cheating situations, but NTR is quite a bit more demanding in the story "real estate" if that makes sense.

That said, I don't even really mind if cheating and western cuckolding is just lumped with NTR at this point. What truly gets on my nerves, and what most of you are essentially lamenting, is the NTR hysteria basically gatekeeping writers from exploring things that are not even cheating or cuckolding. Things like MC's best friend having a girl. Things like parents having sex. Just people having some agency on their own outside of the MC, a lot of times without even any hint of maliciousness. It greatly limits the type of stories we might have. They all end up at one extreme or the other. Another safe space harem romance, or a flat out NTR game. The vast space in between, where some mature, nuanced, and realistic character interactions could happen is just a hellscape for devs.

 

[desmosome]

On a more positive note, I have to plug After the Inferno for story first games. Just go play it. It's completed and not too long. Please go play it .

 

[Raife]

NTR is not an act, it is a theme. A deliberate theme created with intent by the dev or writer. Some girl banging a non-MC dude

What truly gets on my nerves, and what most of you are essentially lamenting, is the NTR hysteria basically gatekeeping writers from exploring things that are not even cheating or cuckolding. Things like MC's best friend having a girl. Things like parents having sex. Just people having some agency on their own outside of the MC, a lot of times without even any hint of maliciousness. It greatly limits the type of stories we might have. They all end up at one extreme or the other. Another safe space harem romance, or a flat out NTR game. The vast space in between, where some mature, nuanced, and realistic character interactions could happen is just a hellscape for devs.

On the nose. That's precisely my view. It's a lamentable situation for devs who want to explore the vast narrative and thematic territory you describe.

 

[jufot]

On a more positive note, I have to plug After the Inferno for story first games.

I've been playing it since one of the earlier releases and I have finished it. It has some interesting ideas, and there is clearly some attention paid to it (e.g. voice acted cutscenes in VNs are basically unheard of), but I can't say I'm happy with it :/

It feels less like a coherent story and more a loosely connected set of vignettes. Characters are introduced for a single chapter where we are given some backstory and then largely disappear for the rest of the game, save for a few lines at the finale. These people all live and work in close proximity, but they don't even talk to each other. Are there any scenes with Cressa and Kyra? Aymee and Edric? Coren and Fayeth? Aurea and Izumi? These are all people ostensibly working towards the same goal, and yet they don't share a single line of dialogue as far as I remember. They mostly exist as episodic sexual targets for Devran and have minor story relevance.

The overall story, about Saterra's last stand against an increasingly belligerent Isenian Empire, is... fine. It's enjoyable. But it could have been great! Sadly, I feel it largely misses the mark. Big parts of the lore are dumped into the Codex, whereas they would have been much more impactful as part of the game. Like, there is extensive documentation on the religious make-ups of various empires and how that relates to the Isenian conflict, and yet religion plays no part in the narrative. We never meet anyone who even has a religion!

There is nothing outrageously wrong with the game, it's fine, even enjoyable. I'm just frustrated at the missed potential...

 

[desmosome]

I've been playing it since one of the earlier releases and I have finished it. It has some interesting ideas, and there is clearly some attention paid to it (e.g. voice acted cutscenes in VNs are basically unheard of), but I can't say I'm happy with it :/

It feels less like a coherent story and more a loosely connected set of vignettes. Characters are introduced for a single chapter where we are given some backstory and then largely disappear for the rest of the game, save for a few lines at the finale. These people all live and work in close proximity, but they don't even talk to each other. Are there any scenes with Cressa and Kyra? Aymee and Edric? Coren and Fayeth? Aurea and Izumi? These are all people ostensibly working towards the same goal, and yet they don't share a single line of dialogue as far as I remember. They mostly exist as episodic sexual targets for Devran and minor story relevance.

The overall story, about Saterra's last stand against an increasingly belligerent Isenian Empire, is... fine. It's enjoyable. But it could have been great! Sadly, I feel it largely misses the mark. Big parts of the lore are dumped into the Codex, whereas they would have been much more impactful as part of the game. Like, there is extensive documentation on the religious make-ups of various empires and how that relates to the Isenian conflict, and yet religion plays no part in the narrative. We never meet anyone who even has a religion!

There is nothing outrageously wrong with the game, it's fine, even enjoyable. I'm just frustrated at the missed potential...

That's fair. All things I agree with. They are mainly issues arising from the condensed narrative and compartmentalized delivery of the story arcs. The nature of the story is on the grandiose side but the length of the game short, so there had to be some sacrifices. I thought it told a pretty intimate story and the dev largely succeeded in what they set out to do. It had a sub 1 year dev cycle with updates coming out in mostly self contained chunks. For a first project, I thought it was a fantastic.

 

[bacienvu88]

Jufot recommends a game with a harem tag ... now this I gotta see!

There are several harem games on the list already. Most notably Talothral's games.

 

[Tlaero]

Although there are much bigger problems with this site, I feel that people are too reliant on tags. A mod gets the game, looks it over briefly, and assigns some tags. Then there's a ton of conversation time devoted to people saying that the tags are wrong. And that conversation is usually of the form, "The tag said this, and I downloaded it, and it didn't have that, and now I'm PISSED."

I guess this is made worse by how the tags are set up. For instance, there's one that's "Trans/Futa" as though that's the same thing.

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

Making Memories. A relatively new one. The Dev is a Non-native English Speaker (like me). Sure the Story is not new, but I think it is well told, the renderings are great (in my opinion) and the look of the protagonists is refreshingly different.

The Arson Betrayal, another newer one. But with a lot of content already. Yes, there are some forced and maybe unnecessary lewd scenes. But isn't that what we are here for? I think the story more than makes up for that:

Jason. I am not sure if this one will survive. I believe the Developer thought he could make fast and easy money and is now hit by reality. Nonetheless, I think he is a great artist and if he keeps going this could become good.

Hey, welcome to the thread!

I'm not a fan of Jason, and The Arson Betrayal doesn't look like my thing, but I did check out Making Memories. It's very... emotive? I'm not sure if that's the right word. It's certainly unusual for a VN to indulge in post-infidelity navel-gazing. The background music, and all those transitions with soft clouds and cityscape views make things very immersive. As an incest game, there is a limit to the realism any dev can offer, but I think it's tackled better than most here, especially MC's relationship with his sister. I liked that it wasn't instigated by his divorce. It's fairly realistic, and I can actually see it happening in real life, and various novels and movies have depicted such relationships.

Unfortunately, the presence of the daughter kind of ruins that immersion. She's just a teenager with a crush on a man twice her age. There is a clear power dynamic, a right and wrong here, no matter what Elvira the therapist-with-a-dozen-degrees says. MC chooses wrong, and is universally encouraged to do so. I can't help but think that the story would have been stronger without the daughter, despite the reduction in porn value.

Speaking of MC's choices - there really are none. I played it with the code open, and apparently the choices are purely flavour text. I like that! It means that you're reading the story the writer intended to tell, and because you don't get to choose the two central relationships, there is room for them to be explored and developed. It's very encouraging to see a dev do this because it's so rare.

The daughter aside, I have only two minor complaints. First, the MC's horrendous skin. He looks like a reanimated corpse! I understand it's not feasible to fix existing renders, but surely something can be done for future episodes? Then, there's the dev's English. It's not too bad, but it's not fluent either, and it can be distracting at times.

Still, this is a refreshing take on an oversaturated genre, and it has me intrigued

 

[Carefree247]

jufot I've played the Seven Realms and I feel it's too early to judge, but yes I see hints of good writing and world building even if the forced bond irks me to no ends as it's a personal peeve of mine wonder how he'll proceed and wheather I'd be interested in it moving forward as I feel it's as you said Twilight rebranded.

 

[jufot]

@jufot I've played the Seven Realms and I feel it's too early to judge, but yes I see hints of good writing and world building even if the forced bond irks me to no ends as it's a personal peeve of mine wonder how he'll proceed and wheather I'd be interested in it moving forward as I feel it's as you said Twilight rebranded.

It's good to see I'm not alone with the Twilight thing I'm the opposite with forced relationships. I find that it's usually indicative of a better, more developed, more intentional story. There are exceptions of course, but when I start a VN with a pre-existing and/or forced relationship, my initial impression is almost always positive.

 

[Carefree247]

It's good to see I'm not alone with the Twilight thing I'm the opposite with forced relationships. I find that it's usually indicative of a better, more developed, more intentional story. There are exceptions of course, but when I start a VN with a pre-existing and/or forced relationship, my initial impression is almost always positive.

For me I like it when you don't have a fixed love interst or know who the love interest is but have one from the cast really stand out for the player and mesh soo well with the story it forces you to acknowledge them like Bella from Summers gone, as it's a far smarter way to deal with the consumers and feels more organic and adds value to the limited choices in the game.

 

[desmosome]

Just an example of the usual foaming at the mouth in response to a reasonable dev stance.
https://f95zone.to/threads/the-one-v0-03-0-profile-games.106672/post-7507596

Well, I have not played that game or know anything about it, but when you got 20 facepalms from the brigade (of course the post was linked in the Djkunn anti-ntr thread), and pretty much the entirely of the game thread is people crying about pixels, you'd have to lose motivation pretty fast.

They will pat themselves on the back for "winning" the battle and removing some sneaky dev that tried to "trick" them into NTR. And the cycle continues. It's honestly quite sickening, this childish mentality of wanting every story to be tailored specifically to ones own sensitive tastes.

 

[realjitter]

Yep, god forbid letting people tell their own created adult stories the way they want to, how dare those fuckers...burn em all

 

[Raife]

Although there are much bigger problems with this site, I feel that people are too reliant on tags.

I agree with you: most players on this site focus too much on tags, which often do a massive disservice to the devs... particularly those trying to tell original, nuanced, adult stories.

There's a place for tags, but I wish the mods would limit them to a few high-level concepts and very well-defined kinks. (When they include kinks, they need to be defined very narrowly/correctly...)

Also Tlaero... I do think that tags have a particularly important (and, perhaps, outsized and negative) role for new devs who are just introducing themselves to the community.

People like you -- who have a sort of 'brand' and reputation -- don't need tags. when I see a new Tlaero/Mortze game, I am going to play it, full stop... I pay zero attention to your F95 tags. The only 'tag' I need to see is your name.

For new devs, like our friend Badtimes, tags are something between billboards and health warnings... they can sometimes make or break a game.

What's your view, from the perspective of an established dev? How should tags be handled? Would a 'story-driven game' tag be workable?

 

[Tlaero]

Although I've been doing this for a while, I see a lot of people on my game threads who have never heard of me before. So I'm guessing the tags impact me in a similar way as less established Devs. I just grow tired of people getting bent out of shape because a tag is there when they don't think it should be or one is missing when they think it should be there.

There's even disagreement about how much content justifies a tag. For instance, if you've got a game with 20 major scenes and one of them involves a foursome between two couples, should there be a "swinging" tag? If you're the kind of person who is so against swinging that when you see it in a game, you delete the game and never play anything by that Dev ever again, (yes, I've seen that happen) then hell yeah, you need the tag. But if you're someone looking for "swinging" content and you play the whole game for one scene at the end, you're disappointed and accuse me of putting the scene in just to trick you into playing my game (even though the game was written before F95 existed...). I swear, there's no winning.

I guess that's the real problem. Some people use tags to protect themselves from seeing content they don't want to see, and some people use tags to find content they want to see more of. That almost guarantees conflict.

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

One of my favourite games on this site, Intertwined, just had its Chapter 9 update! I loved it and also kinda hated it! Quick thoughts below.

Spoiler

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Sadly, ~80% of this chapter wasn't available to me as it focuses on Cara and Nikki's routes, and I'm on neither. The rest is 90% a flashback to when MC met Iris, and a few short scenes elsewhere.

Still, it was a great chapter. Shame we'll have to wait another six months to see that cliffhanger resolved, though. What did you guys think of it?