Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

So why don't I have much support? Honestly? I think it's because it's just not that great. I have a decent story on my hands, and it'll be better IMO once it's fully realized, and fairly good character work I think, but I think if I have to step away from myself and be objective, it's just not that good right now as a whole. I can say with honesty it's not as good as I wanted it to be when I started.

You're being far too tough on yourself, noping No, it's not the best adult VN I've ever played... but it's pretty darn good: better than at least 90% of what's on this site. For an initial effort, that's amazing.

To my mind, you've done almost everything well... I look forward to playing through it to the end.

What's missing is just a strong initial plot hook, or point of interest, that draws the player in _immediately_.

Take Toro 7, for example: the dev harpoons the player's interest in about four different ways right away via (1) the whodunit, (2) the strange setting, and (3) allusions to additional mysteries beyond 1+2. Plus, the MC has a past, and a distinctive skillset and worldview... AND the LIs are great.

But... Tlaero has been doing her thing for years... and she has clearly learned from her mistakes. Her early work, while very good, is not nearly as great as her work over the last several years. Nobody starts out that good.

I mean to be encouraging here: you've most of what you need for a great game, and you're a talented dev... you just needed some initial gripping story elements beyond the characters to seize players' attention.

 

[noping123]

You're being far too tough on yourself, noping No, it's not the best adult VN I've ever played... but it's pretty darn good: better than at least 90% of what's on this site. For an initial effort, that's amazing.

To my mind, you've done almost everything well... I look forward to playing through it to the end.

What's missing is just a strong initial plot hook, or point of interest, that draws the player in _immediately_.

Take Toro 7, for example: the dev harpoons the player's interest in about four different ways right away via (1) the whodunit, (2) the strange setting, and (3) allusions to additional mysteries beyond 1+2. Plus, the MC has a past, and a distinctive skillset and worldview... AND the LIs are great.

But... Tlaero has been doing her thing for years... and she has clearly learned from her mistakes. Her early work, while very good, is not nearly as great as her work over the last several years. Nobody starts out that good.

I mean to be encouraging here: you've most of what you need for a great game, and you're a talented dev... you just needed some initial gripping story elements beyond the characters to seize players' attention.

You could be right. Or not, idk. I'll try to take what you say at face value, though gimmie a few dasys time and I should be all good. I'll drop it now though as I'd otherwise start talkking about things I most definitely should not.

 

[jufot]

What does everyone think of Healslut? I first played it a while ago and was just reminded of it with today's update.

At first, that page didn't inspire much confidence. The name, the description, that banner image, it all just screamed "misogynistic WoW sex parody" and that's just not for me. But, I was bored and figured why not.

Well, turns out there is an actual, well-developed story there and I'm kind of hooked! The whole thing is very porny, but the developer goes to great lengths to cater to different tastes. Sparkle (the MC) can be anything from a confident woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, to little more than a sex toy to be used by others. It's a very wide spectrum, and I play closer to the former, but I can see that even the latter would fit well with the story. This is one of those games where choices can have big, long-term effects on the world. At this point in the game, the possible combinations of characters, locations and personalities is huge, so updates take a long time to arrive. But still, I'm very much enjoying it

 

[Tlaero]

But... Tlaero has been doing her thing for years... and she has clearly learned from her mistakes. Her early work, while very good, is not nearly as great as her work over the last several years. Nobody starts out that good.

And, I'm a professional software developer and, in my past, was a science fiction novelist. Writing is a skill, like any other, and you get better at it with practice. Hold your head high, Noping, and keep at it.

Tlaero

 

[bacienvu88]

What does everyone think of Healslut? I first played it a while ago and was just reminded of it with today's update.

At first, that page didn't inspire much confidence. The name, the description, that banner image, it all just screamed "misogynistic WoW sex parody" and that's just not for me. But, I was bored and figured why not.

Well, turns out there is an actual, well-developed story there and I'm kind of hooked! The whole thing is very porny, but the developer goes to great lengths to cater to different tastes. Sparkle (the MC) can be anything from a confident woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, to little more than a sex toy to be used by others. It's a very wide spectrum, and I play closer to the former, but I can see that even the latter would fit well with the story. This is one of those games where choices can have big, long-term effects on the world. At this point in the game, the possible combinations of characters, locations and personalities is huge, so updates take a long time to arrive. But still, I'm very much enjoying it

I have played Healslut a while ago, but not to completion of that version. But I can't remember why I stopped. If it was just being distracted by something else, because I don't remember thinking it was a bad game, rather the opposite.

 

[noping123]

What does everyone think of Healslut? I first played it a while ago and was just reminded of it with today's update.

At first, that page didn't inspire much confidence. The name, the description, that banner image, it all just screamed "misogynistic WoW sex parody" and that's just not for me. But, I was bored and figured why not.

Well, turns out there is an actual, well-developed story there and I'm kind of hooked! The whole thing is very porny, but the developer goes to great lengths to cater to different tastes. Sparkle (the MC) can be anything from a confident woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, to little more than a sex toy to be used by others. It's a very wide spectrum, and I play closer to the former, but I can see that even the latter would fit well with the story. This is one of those games where choices can have big, long-term effects on the world. At this point in the game, the possible combinations of characters, locations and personalities is huge, so updates take a long time to arrive. But still, I'm very much enjoying it

I needed to recharge today, so I decided to give it a shot.


What. the. Fuck.

I don't have words.

It's not even bad. It's definitely well thought out and put together. But just... It's just... what the fuck.

And, I'm a professional software developer and, in my past, was a science fiction novelist. Writing is a skill, like any other, and you get better at it with practice. Hold your head high, Noping, and keep at it.

Actually, I'm technically an award-winning author myself.

I mean... not financially successful or well known. But award winning! A big part of my problem is, the art. I'm actually terrible at it - like really much so. So much that it takes 10x more effort for me to put it together than most people. I try my best, but at my core, I just do not have that in me, so it's a struggle to put it together. This definitely takes away from everything else - I end up putting a lot less into the writing than I'd want to. There's other considerations too but they're not important.





But seriously. I'm still thinking about healslut. What the fuck did I just play. I have the sudden urge to go play something extremely wholesome.

 

[jufot]

It's not even bad. It's definitely well thought out and put together. But just... It's just... what the fuck.


But seriously. I'm still thinking about healslut. What the fuck did I just play. I have the sudden urge to go play something extremely wholesome.

Hahaha, now that's an interesting reaction! The game has a lot of heart and, while some scenes are very much unwholesome, Sparkle's relationships can be. My Sparkle is in a Panki+Lel throuple relationship, and it's so very sweet

I also recommend keeping

You must be registered to see the links

open. It'll help you avoid any unsavoury content.

 

[bacienvu88]

Haha, that's pretty much what I said in my To Be A King review

Interesting review. I just noticed it since it got a new update and have just finished playing the game.

I definitely agree that there is too much porn logic going on, but in the new update there is finally some real intrigue going on and I hope the dev will take this opportunity to let the game become more interesting.

There is also the strangeness with skills that you acquire throughout the game which doesn't seem to be used at all.

 

[desmosome]

Yea, I've always envisioned this as a full piece, and honestly wrote it as such, so I think that plays into some of the "story" bits not feeling quite there yet, since admittedly a lot of that is backloaded. The front bit is more character work, the back bit is more story.

As far as the MC goes... there's a lot of things going on here. First, you're right. His life is "boring". That's partially by design, although I definitely see the whole "Man his life is boring when he's not interacting with people" thing. That's part of the reason I've started peppering in his backstory a bit, I did a small piece of it in CH4, another will come in ch5, plus as CH5 comes he'll have more to do, so hopefully that'll be slightly addressed. Or not, who knows.

Regarding your other points: #1, it's funny. All the character backstories I had written on day 1, and how (or if) they knew each other. So far you've mostly had characters who DO have history interacting (Like erin/nikki). Ch5 brings a lot of character interactions between people who lack that history, and don't actually know each other very well, so that's been very interesting to write, and I'm looking forward to putting all of that together.

Regarding #2... It's actually not much work. The hardest bit, is the coding side of it - making sure all the variables are in the correct place, and trying to make sure things are coded properly to take you on the correct path. The writing side of it, for me, is easy. Idk why, but it is. Who knows. Probably because I'm a halfway decent writer, (but a piss poor artist!) who has a mind for those sort of details, if I had to guess.



So why don't I have much support? Honestly? I think it's because it's just not that great. I have a decent story on my hands, and it'll be better IMO once it's fully realized, and fairly good character work I think, but I think if I have to step away from myself and be objective, it's just not that good right now as a whole. I can say with honesty it's not as good as I wanted it to be when I started.

I've slowly come to this conclusion over the last week or two, and tbh, it's sort of destroyed any motivation I've had to work on the game. All the work I've gotten done, has been basically me forcing myself to do it, because the motivation just didn't exist. Add to that some pretty harsh (Not necessarily undeserved, but definitely harsh) criticism I've gotten recently, and my motivation is at an all time low. A big part of me says "Not many people like this, and even less like it enough to support it, so why waste your time", and that has become increasingly difficult to fight against.

I'm still absolutely fucking determined to finish this, but it'll probably delay the release by a week or two while I fight to get myself motivated again. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for reassurances or anything, just randomly kvetching mostly, eventually I'll fight through and find myself in a spot where I'm motivated again, but for now I'll just have to find a way to deal with the honest realization that, what I've produced, is not as good as what I originally envisioned. I think what I'll need to do first is take some time and figure out where that disconnect occured - then I'll probably be able to get into a spot where I'll be excited to work again.

I will tell you straight up, your game is excellent. You should not conflate patreon success with the quality of the product. This can't be overstated. The quality of the writing and artistic merits have almost nothing to do with patreon success. Look at Primal Instinct. Sure, the dev is kind of a chode, but we didn't know about it at the time. That game, despite having some of the best visual story telling and great writing, peaked at like 500 bucks a month and untimately got abandoned. There are many amazing works that never take off because it isn't what the masses want. It's like a case of Fast and Furious 27 vs some Oscar nominee that no one knows about.

Seriously, you can make the next daddy daughter game with some loli model that passes a rule 7 check. Make decent renders and write some cliche loli porn and watch those pedo bucks roll in. It's that easy. Would you say that is a "good" game? Well, maybe financially successful and perhaps even good within its fetish, but perhaps lacking in artistic merit.

 

[Tlaero]

A big part of my problem is, the art. I'm actually terrible at it - like really much so. So much that it takes 10x more effort for me to put it together than most people. I try my best, but at my core, I just do not have that in me, so it's a struggle to put it together. This definitely takes away from everything else - I end up putting a lot less into the writing than I'd want to. There's other considerations too but they're not important.

The solution to that problem is to find an artist.

Ideally, find one who feels the same way about writing and programming as you do about art. I suggest going through a bunch of the games on this site that didn't do well or get very far, find one with decent/good art and bad writing or writing where the author clearly isn't a native speaker, etc. Then send that person a private message and suggest a collaboration.

Tlaero

 

[noping123]

The solution to that problem is to find an artist.

Ideally, find one who feels the same way about writing and programming as you do about art. I suggest going through a bunch of the games on this site that didn't do well or get very far, find one with decent/good art and bad writing or writing where the author clearly isn't a native speaker, etc. Then send that person a private message and suggest a collaboration.

Tlaero

I tried that before I started.

You know what I learned?

When you can't afford to pay, no artist worth even a tiny bit of a damn is going to work with you- and the few who are willing, will end up being flakey and abandon projects halfway through because they get burnt out.

Of course if I could afford to pay someone, it'd be a different story, but I can't, so alas. I'm stuck.

 

[Tlaero]

Seriously, you can make the next daddy daughter game with some loli model that passes a rule 7 check. Make decent renders and write some cliche loli porn and watch those pedo bucks roll in. It's that easy. Would you say that is a "good" game? Well, maybe financially successful and perhaps even good within its fetish, but perhaps lacking in artistic merit.

If the goal is to be financially successful, there's a much, much easier way to go about it. Learn to program and get a job at a tech company. There's a shortage of software developers, and starting salaries are in the 6 figures range.

Tlaero

 

[Jaike]

Hahaha, now that's an interesting reaction! The game has a lot of heart and, while some scenes are very much unwholesome, Sparkle's relationships can be. My Sparkle is in a Panki+Lel throuple relationship, and it's so very sweet

I also recommend keeping

You must be registered to see the links

open. It'll help you avoid any unsavoury content.

Amateur, there's also a harem that includes Jane/Skylark as well and I think there's also a way to romance Harmony in addition to those two.

I think it is a very amusing game and I appreciate the option to play as an unabashedly dominant female protagonist, on the other hand the drama with the party does go over the top imo and at points it can feel like a struggle session simulator. Guess that dating Roopah or putting her in charge of the protagonist may also feel like that. But I never thought of recommending it to you because of the super heavy porn logic and the avoidable stuff you dislike. I think it hits an interesting medium between a typical VN and a sandbox and the replay value's quite high because of the clever branching with skills, purchases, action, stuff like that.

One thing that I find very well thought out but also a bit of a trope subversion is that Lel is actually much harder to date solo than as part of a group relationship. Her self esteem is so low that she finds it easier to accept being another member of a harem than being a full one-on-one romantic partner. It's porny, but pointy.

 

[desmosome]

If the goal is to be financially successful, there's a much, much easier way to go about it. Learn to program and get a job at a tech company. There's a shortage of software developers, and starting salaries are in the 6 figures range.

Tlaero

Haha, true that. I was just talking about the porn game scene. There seems to be 3 main routes in terms of mass appeal. College dating sims, incest harems, and from what I've seen, daddy daughter. Out of these 3, I'd say the daddy daughter is the lowest hanging fruit that doesn't even need to be remotely good to bring in a decent amount of support.

 

[Jaike]

Haha, true that. I was just talking about the porn game scene. There seems to be 3 main routes in terms of mass appeal. College dating sims, incest harems, and from what I've seen, daddy daughter. Out of these 3, I'd say the daddy daughter is the lowest hanging fruit that doesn't even need to be remotely good to bring in a decent amount of support.

Add some passage of time or a bit of time travel and you can hit all three, an associate professor dating his daughters in uni or an adolescent dating his conveniently adolescent daughters in uni because time travel.

Must be a pretty soulless endeavour to make something like that though.

 

[Tlaero]

When you can't afford to pay, no artist worth even a tiny bit of a damn is going to work with you- and the few who are willing, will end up being flakey and abandon projects halfway through because they get burnt out.

Of course if I could afford to pay someone, it'd be a different story, but I can't, so alas. I'm stuck.

You definitely don't want a work for hire artist. No one could afford that. You want a someone starting out whose skills compliment yours and whose failings are the inverse of yours. You want someone you can treat as a full partner. Those people exist. You can see it in their decent art/bad writing attempts at games.

And when you make a game with them, start small. Write a 100 image short story. Do five of them. Worry more about learning to work together than creating a masterpiece.

This is a better path, with a higher chance of success than struggling to do something you don't like doing.

Tlaero

 

[noping123]

Add some passage of time or a bit of time travel and you can hit all three, an associate professor dating his daughters in uni or an adolescent dating his conveniently adolescent daughters in uni because time travel.

Must be a pretty soulless endeavour to make something like that though.

Uh....

Yea as it turns out my game is now abandoned.

I'm off to make Daddy Daughter University : The Future is Past

 

[desmosome]

Amateur, there's also a harem that includes Jane/Skylark as well and I think there's also a way to romance Harmony in addition to those two.

I think it is a very amusing game and I appreciate the option to play as an unabashedly dominant female protagonist, on the other hand the drama with the party does go over the top imo and at points it can feel like a struggle session simulator. Guess that dating Roopah or putting her in charge of the protagonist may also feel like that. But I never thought of recommending it to you because of the super heavy porn logic and the avoidable stuff you dislike. I think it hits an interesting medium between a typical VN and a sandbox and the replay value's quite high because of the clever branching with skills, purchases, action, stuff like that.

One thing that I find very well thought out but also a bit of a trope subversion is that Lel is actually much harder to date solo than as part of a group relationship. Her self esteem is so low that she finds it easier to accept being another member of a harem than being a full one-on-one romantic partner. It's porny, but pointy.

I always passed on Healslut because I had the impression that it was a male MC that is playing as a female MMO character. That seemed too gay for me. I recently did some reading through the thread and it seems like you can pick between male and female MC, right? So I could pick a female MC who is playing as a female game character. I could deal with that. That said, I always get a bit wary in games that offer too many sexual orientations in the tags, as the primary fetish and sexual content is often based on gender play, something I don't particularly enjoy.

If I were to play this one, I would play it mostly as a female protag corruption game I guess. I prefer male dom vibes, so I almost always go for submissive choices in those female protag games. Is there a decent amount of content for this type of run?

 

[noping123]

You definitely don't want a work for hire artist. No one could afford that. You want a someone starting out whose skills compliment yours and whose failings are the inverse of yours. You want someone you can treat as a full partner. Those people exist. You can see it in their decent art/bad writing attempts at games.

And when you make a game with them, start small. Write a 100 image short story. Do five of them. Worry more about learning to work together than creating a masterpiece.

This is a better path, with a higher chance of success than struggling to do something you don't like doing.

Tlaero

Nah, I'll pass. Honestly, THAT to me, sounds like the personification of hell. THAT sounds like something I don't want to do. I would MUCH rather struggle through doing something I don't really like doing, than waste my time and effort on something I don't care about, and have no investment in, and really just don't give a shit about, for the sake of "learning to work together" or "future success" or any of that nonsense.

If I wanted success, my previous post would have been serious and not a joke. If I want to toil away my time on something I don't care at ALL about, well, that's what a real job is for. This? Yea I hate doing the art, but I care about the project as a whole, and that's why I do it. Spending time doing that short story stuff, writing stores I don't care about, don't want to do, and really REALLY have no interest in? THAT to me is hell. What I'm doing now? It's just frustrating.

 

[jufot]

Amateur, there's also a harem that includes Jane/Skylark as well and I think there's also a way to romance Harmony in addition to those two.

I know, but Jane is too much of an airhead for my taste. I just let her fly around in her "bird" form Harmony? No, I'm not into necrophilia

But I never thought of recommending it to you because of the super heavy porn logic and the avoidable stuff you dislike.

Honestly, I wouldn't have tried it all based on the description. It was just a lucky combination of boredom and curiosity

Her self esteem is so low that she finds it easier to accept being another member of a harem than being a full one-on-one romantic partner. It's porny, but pointy.

Yes! Lel is very interesting. Her persona is very porny, but it doesn't feel out of character somehow. Her IRL identity is the game's greatest mystery for me, and a big part of why I'm so hooked

I recently did some reading through the thread and it seems like you can pick between male and female MC, right? So I could pick a female MC who is playing as a female game character. I could deal with that.

Yes, you can play as Nerdette instead of Nerd. That's what I do

If I were to play this one, I would play it mostly as a female protag corruption game I guess. I prefer male dom vibes, so I almost always go for submissive choices in those female protag games. Is there a decent amount of content for this type of run?

There is a shit ton of male (and male adjacent) dom to subject MC to. In fact, most of the content is like that. You'd have to actively try and avoid it, like I do