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Recommending Story-first games

5.00 star(s) 8 Votes

bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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I think that's where we differ. I really enjoy Legacy treating MC like a particularly dim-witted child :)
And that would have been fine if MC actually is dim-witted. Now, it comes across as condescending instead since Legacy refuses to actually teach him properly.
This is fair. I don't really care about the MC, so it doesn't bother me, but I can see why it'd be a problem for most, especially if you're self inserting.
I don't particularly care about MC either. But it makes MC less interesting. Compare with MC from Corporate Culture. I don't care about Edward, more dislike actually. But he is interesting. Especially when interacting with Elsa. MC from from Price of Power was ok before Legacy, but after that he is basically just a stubborn body for Legacy that has a bit of romance with Maria.
Like I said, I can see why he's divisive. My theory on Legacy is that despite his bombast, he was designed purely to kill things and is actually quite limited. So while he has nigh-infinite information and plenty of process power, he's bumbling along through trial and error whenever he comes across a problem outside his intended purpose. He's a high trained grunt bereft of his support network and chain of command.
So, what you are saying is that he treats MC as a dimwitted child to hide his own stupidity? :)
This is the only one from your list I wasn't already aware of. I love Fringe, so I'm definitely intrigued, but there are some suspicious tags like rape and mind control. How big a role do those play in the game?
I haven't played it for the last 6 months or so, so my info may be a bit outdated.
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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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I don't particularly care about MC either. But it makes MC less interesting. Compare with MC from Corporate Culture. I don't care about Edward, more dislike actually. But he is interesting. Especially when interacting with Elsa. MC from from Price of Power was ok before Legacy, but after that he is basically just a stubborn body for Legacy that has a bit of romance with Maria.
OK, that's completely fair and I agree.

I haven't played it for the last 6 months or so, so my info may be a bit outdated.
Hmm, good to know it's avoidable at least. Maybe I'll check it out sometime.
 
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Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
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Like I said, I can see why he's divisive. My theory on Legacy is that
I largely share that perspective, with one notable tweak: Legacy is a military-focussed AI _not_ a computer programme according to our understanding. He's a fully independent being, who is a bit of an anti-human bigot in the sense that he views us as inferior beings... a bit like the way most people perceive non-human primates. We have an instrumentality to him, like say, cows or dogs... but he regards teaching the MC as boring and a bit of a waste of time.

The MC _is_ a bit dull, but I see his relationship with Legacy as very interesting -- the most intriguing part of the game, really. Legacy's agenda and motivations -- and his reliability -- are unclear. This sets up a very interesting challenge for the MC: if he confronts or disagrees with Legacy (a conflict that is clearly coming) that character could kill him... but that might also kill Legacy.

So... I don't see Legacy as inhibiting the MC's agency... quite the opposite, really. He gives the MC access to tremendous power _and_ agency... but that opens up all sorts of opportunity for corruption or morally questionable choices. (The clue is in the title...)

But... I do agree with bacienvu88 that the dev sometimes uses Legacy for excessively large exposition dumps. He's a bit of a narrative kluge (to use one of my favourite engineering terms).
 
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bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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The MC _is_ a bit dull, but I see his relationship with Legacy as very interesting -- the most intriguing part of the game, really. Legacy's agenda and motivations -- and his reliability -- are unclear. This sets up a very interesting challenge for the MC: if he confronts or disagrees with Legacy (a conflict that is clearly coming) that character could kill him... but that might also kill Legacy.
I find MC to be rather average. Not particularly bright, but not particularly stupid either. And the relationship between them certainly have potential to be interesting. I like the game mostly because of the sweet romance between MC and Maria and the setting which is interesting and Legacy is part of the setting in many ways and interesting as well. But I do find the whole "Haha, you are so stupid to not understand this which I refuse to teach you" pretty tiresome. Plus all the bad jokes at the expense of MC.
So... I don't see Legacy as inhibiting the MC's agency... quite the opposite, really. He gives the MC access to tremendous power _and_ agency... but that opens up all sorts of opportunity for corruption or morally questionable choices. (The clue is in the title...)
Well it is double-edged. On one hand, yes MC do get access more options. But at the same time he lacks understanding on what the options actually mean. And he won't understand if a choice is a false dilemma and there is a third, hidden option. Which means he is stuck relying on Legacy's advice anyway. So in reality he is not capable of making any choices by himself.

In addition, they are becoming way too dependent on Legacy in many ways, so I'm afraid they are starting to lose the ability to solve issues without the help of Legacy.
But... I do agree with bacienvu88 that the dev sometimes uses Legacy for excessively large exposition dumps. He's a bit of a narrative kluge (to use one of my favourite engineering terms).
He is used as a narrative kluge a lot. Not just exposition. He resolves most of their problems along the way, from defeating the monster to helping MC win the duel.
 

Have_a_great_Day

New Member
Jun 14, 2017
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I think that's where we differ. I really enjoy Legacy treating MC like a particularly dim-witted child :)


This is fair. I don't really care about the MC, so it doesn't bother me, but I can see why it'd be a problem for most, especially if you're self inserting.


This is the only one from your list I wasn't already aware of. I love Fringe, so I'm definitely intrigued, but there are some suspicious tags like rape and mind control. How big a role do those play in the game?
Its not anything hardcore and i wont spoil it.The mind control was only to get information not to force someone and the rape dont remember completely but maybe its avoidable or its something minor so its all green if your not into it. I myself are not cool with rape and i dont judge but its a vanilla situation and the whole plot is intriguing so have a go.

Edit: I remembered that you can be a "good" or "bad" guy so maybe those tags are for that so you choose this Im not so sure its been a while since I played it.
 
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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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Alright, so The Seven Realms is off the list after this latest update. I gotta give it to the dev, he went much further than most to create a story justification for the harem. He deserves some kudos for that. But still, this chapter dialled up the porn logic to 11. Add to that the LI agency problems we've discussed here before (they're even worse now), it's enough to be booted off the list.

It's still a good game, mind you, just not one that fits my criteria :)
 
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bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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Alright, so The Seven Realms is off the list after this latest update. I gotta give it to the dev, he went much further than most to create a story justification for the harem. He deserves some kudos for that. But still, this chapter dialled up the porn logic to 11. Add to that the LI agency problems we've discussed here before (they're even worse now), it's enough to be booted off the list.

It's still a good game, mind you, just not one that fits my criteria :)
Agree. Just finished the update. I really like the story parts, but the porn parts are really forced. I wish dev would have made Atlas & Leyala a power couple, equal to each other that have fun with others on the side for the porn parts.

EDIT: It is weird the sex scene is made in three variants where one is left out. Would make more sense to have a foursome. I guess it is due Patreon incest rules. But it is still weird, story wise.
 
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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I took a glance at the Seven Realms thread, and it looks like it's had 6 updates in a month and a half. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Tlaero
 

bacienvu88

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2021
1,714
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I took a glance at the Seven Realms thread, and it looks like it's had 6 updates in a month and a half. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Tlaero
6 updates in two and a half months (first release was 1 apr if I read things correctly). But still high development speed.
 

E_O_N

Creator of Winter Warmth & Karma
Game Developer
Jan 31, 2021
769
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Alright, so The Seven Realms is off the list after this latest update. I gotta give it to the dev, he went much further than most to create a story justification for the harem. He deserves some kudos for that. But still, this chapter dialled up the porn logic to 11. Add to that the LI agency problems we've discussed here before (they're even worse now), it's enough to be booted off the list.

It's still a good game, mind you, just not one that fits my criteria :)
Honestly, it's not easy. Most games focus on the fap part and usually get patrons quite fast. If you go the story focused route, there is a set of skills that needs to be much higher (writer). That alongside rendering, animation, sound, post work, coding etc.
Additional work for something that might hurt them in return.

As someone who thinks of story as essential, thank you for the thread. Even though I might never belong to that list :)

6 updates in two and a half months (first release was 1 apr if I read things correctly). But still high development speed.

Depending on what's in those updates, that's not high development speed. But like Lightspeed development, but faster.
 

bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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Depending on what's in those updates, that's not high development speed. But like Lightspeed development, but faster.
The updates aren't that long. Usually contains around 4 scenes. The latest update for example contains two longer scenes and two very short scenes.
 

E_O_N

Creator of Winter Warmth & Karma
Game Developer
Jan 31, 2021
769
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The updates aren't that long. Usually contains around 4 scenes. The latest update for example contains two longer scenes and two very short scenes.
Sounds like 50-100 renders per update. Let's take the middle 75 renders x 6. 450 renders in 2.5 months.
Alright, that is still respectable, I took a look at their renders out of curiosity at this point, still respectable.

2.5 months -> 75 days, - 40% for holidays and weekend. About 40 days, meaning 11.25 renders a day. Faster than many, doesn't include writing, animations etc.

Did I get it right?
 

bacienvu88

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Aug 3, 2021
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Sounds like 50-100 renders per update. Let's take the middle 75 renders x 6. 450 renders in 2.5 months.
Alright, that is still respectable, I took a look at their renders out of curiosity at this point, still respectable.

2.5 months -> 75 days, - 40% for holidays and weekend. About 40 days, meaning 11.25 renders a day. Faster than many, doesn't include writing, animations etc.

Did I get it right?
I'm not a VN dev, so have no experience of my own on render speed etc. But if I understand correctly, they are two persons working on it.
 

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
1,562
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Honestly, it's not easy. Most games focus on the fap part and usually get patrons quite fast. If you go the story focused route, there is a set of skills that needs to be much higher (writer). That alongside rendering, animation, sound, post work, coding etc.
Additional work for something that might hurt them in return.
Agreed. The financial incentives in AVN development are firmly aligned with cheap & fast porn delivery, and I don't begrudge any dev for choosing that. After all, who wouldn't want to make a living off their hobby?

As a consequence, though, the games with the best stories are the ones developed for personal satisfaction, not money. It's why many games in my list have very little in terms of Patreon supporters, but are getting updates nonetheless.

As someone who thinks of story as essential, thank you for the thread. Even though I might never belong to that list :)
I saw Karma in your signature when you first posted in this thread, and it's in my backlog :)
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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I wish dev would have made Atlas & Leyala a power couple, equal to each other that have fun with others on the side for the porn parts.
That would have been great, and probably feel like a much better game.

Now that I think about it, doesn't Leyala have an even bigger claim to the throne than Atlas now? After all, she is Lucius and Effie's biological child and Atlas is just a random kid they took in.
 
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E_O_N

Creator of Winter Warmth & Karma
Game Developer
Jan 31, 2021
769
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I'm not a VN dev, so have no experience of my own on render speed etc. But if I understand correctly, they are two persons working on it.
If there are two people and they do everything, including writing, animations, modelling, coding (Renpy, pure vn's are easier - can get harder fast), community/social/twitter, postwork. Then their speed is still very good.

There is a reason over 90% of adult indie games are never finished. Most of them stop after v0.1
They think it's easy. Work, work harder, work extremely hard and manage to eventually squeeze a release. Only to release it takes much, much more to eventually get there. Several times that, with no guarantee.

Agreed. The financial incentives in AVN development are firmly aligned with cheap & fast porn delivery, and I don't begrudge any dev for choosing that. After all, who wouldn't want to make a living off their hobby?

As a consequence, though, the games with the best stories are the ones developed for personal satisfaction, not money. It's why many games in my list have very little in terms of Patreon supporters, but are getting updates nonetheless.


I saw Karma in your signature when you first posted in this thread, and it's in my backlog :)
While story is very important to me. I wouldn't say the game belongs here.
That being said, compared to most of the games I've played it's a better fit.

A note: F95 only has the public version, not the patron one - until it leaks.
 
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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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While story is very important to me. I wouldn't say the game belongs here.
That being said, compared to most of the games I've played it's a better fit.

A note: F95 only has the public version, not the patron one - until it leaks.
No worries, I play (and support!) plenty of games that don't belong on this thread :)
 

realjitter

Member
Jun 21, 2021
297
372
So how long does it usually take to produce 1 single render with let's say an average PC/Vcard? I have no clue about these things...Are we talking minutes or hours?
 

E_O_N

Creator of Winter Warmth & Karma
Game Developer
Jan 31, 2021
769
1,659
So how long does it usually take to produce 1 single render with let's say an average PC/Vcard? I have no clue about these things...Are we talking minutes or hours?
Are you asking about the time it needs to be actively worked on, or the render time that comes afterwards?
The second part you usually do over night with a renderqueue.

Here an example, assuming we have the writing.
Modelling character - a lot of time.
Modelling place for the scene, including basic lightning - also a lot of time.
You actively working on the render - really depends on your speed. But I would say this relatively simple render should be done within minutes. This can increase fast with multiple characters, expressions, interactions, physics/simulations, postwork etc. And work can absolutely go into hours for a single render.
Now it depends on your cuda cores and your GPU speed how long it takes to render it. Will you take denoiser at the end? With a 3070 I'd say about 1-2 hours for the example below. It would be slightly better with a better gpu. But by the end you are not active on your workstation while it happens.

S13_006.png

Hope that helps :)
 

noping123

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Game Developer
Jun 24, 2021
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So how long does it usually take to produce 1 single render with let's say an average PC/Vcard? I have no clue about these things...Are we talking minutes or hours?

That varies so much it's incredible.

But if you want to average it out? Average hardware (not good/not terrible), average level VN quality image? 45m-1h is reasonable when you include render time. Hardware actually matters a LOT, low end hardware an image might take 1 hr to render and still not be great quality, requiring a lot of postwork in photoshop or w/e, whereas high-end hardware that exact same image can be done at relatively high quality in under 20 minutes.

But again, it varies a lot. There is *so much* that will affect the time it takes, both in production and the actual rendering of the image, that it really could average out from anywhere from 5-15 min per image, to well over an hour per image.

Also it matters if you're using say daz (or even blender. Blender tends to render faster but most people will take a lot longer on the setup part of it), it's going to be a lot slower than if you're using honey select images. But we'll use daz for a baseline example here:

A single quick image, with a simple background and 1 or 2 characters, on middling hardware? It might take 30 to an hour to do the initial setup, and then another 5-10 min for each image in the series (Series here being defined as images that happen within the same scene, with the same characters), plus 20-30 min each to render.

As you increase the number of characters, and the complexity of the background, both the rendering and setup time increase - to the point where you could easily spend hours on the setup, and then 20-30 min per each image in the series, plus 30+ min per image to render.

Mostly though, I'm just trying to use average numbers, as the actual numbers like I said, vary a LOT, and even by dev. Some people could average 20 min total spent on each image (rendering plus design), some average hours per. So there isn't really a great answer to that question.

Some people focus more on raw image quality, so the actual rendering takes longer (sometimes into the hours). Most people try to find a balance between speed and quality, so the average is somewhere around the 20 minute mark. Some people prioritize speed over everything, so they might finish the render in under 10 minutes.


To give a slightly different answer: This again varies a lot, but many devs produce between 5 and 15 images per day on average. The "most productive" devs end up producing 20+ per day. 20+ per day is usually reserved for people who are either insane, or basically do this full time. Of course some devs produce 20+ per day, but at a much lower quality, but for these purposes that doesn't really count.

Seriously, if you consistently put out more than 20 a day on average, you're either certifiable or you work on stuff full time, it's really not reasonable otherwise. (Again this is all assuming solo dev. More people working would obviously change the numbers a bit).
 
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5.00 star(s) 8 Votes