Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

Everyone will judge it differently but personally my litmus test for "is it porny?" is simply, how often does this happen outside of fiction?

I like that scale, noping -- it's a good way of forcing yourself to consider such scenes systematically... which I imagine is particularly useful for a dev like you.

Another way of evaluating the Alexis scene at the beginning of intertwined is if we ask: "did we need that scene in order to better understand either Alexis or the MC?" Or, alternatively "does it do anything to develop the narrative, advance the plot or shed light on either character?" If the answer is 'no' -- than it hits the porny trope.

[For context: I really like Alexis. She's probably my favourite LI in the game, and Nyx does a great job in eventually revealing both the nature of her desire for the MC and her inner conflict over it. But that early scene doesn't help...]

 

[FranceToast]

In Sherlock Holmes mysteries, you theoretically can figure it out because Doyle gives you all the information that Holmes gets, but, because so much of that information isn't relevant, the answer is hidden.

I don't deserve to even be mentioned in the same sentence as those writing giants, but I think about their approaches quite a bit. I'm trying to go somewhere in between. There is information that's important to the mystery in the user chosen conversations. And it's conceivably possible for you, the player, to figure things out by playing. But your choices won't impact the rate at which the MC solves the mystery.


Tlaero

I've been pondering this lately. Have you considered any mechanism towards allowing the player to (internally) figure out the puzzle/mystery, before springing it on them from the MC's explanation in the course of the story?

My MC gets a little too much smug self-satisfaction in revealing to others how they solved certain small puzzles, but I was wondering if I should put in a pause, or prompt for the player to guess/think about it, before continuing with the reveal.
Or, maybe that just is too fourth wall breaking.

 

[Tlaero]

I've been pondering this lately. Have you considered any mechanism towards allowing the player to (internally) figure out the puzzle/mystery, before springing it on them from the MC's explanation in the course of the story?

My MC gets a little too much smug self-satisfaction in revealing to others how they solved certain small puzzles, but I was wondering if I should put in a pause, or prompt for the player to guess/think about it, before continuing with the reveal.
Or, maybe that just is too fourth wall breaking.

The classic way to do this is to give hints along the way and let the audience draw their conclusions. As long as there's some space between the final hint and the reveal, at least some of your players will figure it out and be happy when the reveal matches their thinking.

Well, they might be happy. There have been many times where my spouse and I are watching a movie or a mystery show and, when the "twist" is revealed, we turn to each other and say sarcastically, "I'm shocked. Are you shocked?" I remember one movie we watched where it would have been a twist if Character A did NOT turn out to be the bad guy. So, even "clever" can get to be cliche. Unless you're writing a comedy, I suggest against cliche.

Tlaero

 

[mad_kiwi]

Accidental Mind - is one the rarest creatures on F95, a completely text-based game with no images.

Ha, I was planning to rush here with this recommendation... I don't quite think it clears the bar for the list due to the way the hero has powers that make people want to sleep with him but it really is amazing not just in the premise, but the execution and worldbuilding around it - +1 to everything written above would recommend for story and dialogue enjoyers

 

[vneotpolemus]

Ha, I was planning to rush here with this recommendation... I don't quite think it clears the bar for the list due to the way the hero has powers that make people want to sleep with him but it really is amazing not just in the premise, but the execution and worldbuilding around it - +1 to everything written above would recommend for story and dialogue enjoyers

Glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed it!

I did go back and forth on whether it meets all the criteria. It's not Corporate Culture degree of story over smut, but I think Accidental Mind is on the same level as some of the other games that make the list.

As for the MC's powers, they have got some big limits. He can only affect people who are already attracted to him, he can only directly intervene in dreams, and several characters find out about his abilities or have defenses of their own. Having real time emphatic feedback for everything he does makes him very good at influencing people, but he can't snap his fingers and make them fall in love with him. He has to work for it, which gets into a point that Sam raises in the intro, where is the line between psychic powers and mundanely influencing people?

 

[Raife]

I did go back and forth on whether it meets all the criteria. It's not Corporate Culture degree of story over smut, but I think Accidental Mind is on the same level as some of the other games that make the list.

Thanks for the recommendation: jufot will have to check it against his own criteria.

Personally -- and without expressing any judgement about particular kinks -- I loathe mind control. It's anti-erotic, from my point of view, because it removes mystery and risk from the LI relationships. I also tend to dislike anything that curbs the agency and personalities of LIs, or subjects them to artificial control... and mind control is a big one. At some subconscious level, I find it deeply unappealing. Who would _desire_ an automaton, when you could win over a dynamic and compelling woman (or man)?

The only things I dislike more are non-consent and 'sleep sex' (the latter being a particularly creepy and unrealistic form of non-consent)... for substantially the same reason that I reject mind control... coupled with an overlay of general revulsion. I understand intellectually why many players (including female players) enjoy these kinks. But... I don't.

To each his or her own, of course... and I do like old fashioned text-based AVNs. But mind control? Pass. Just my personal, aesthetic preference...

 

[Raife]

The classic way to do this is to give hints along the way and let the audience draw their conclusions. As long as there's some space between the final hint and the reveal, at least some of your players will figure it out and be happy when the reveal matches their thinking.

I think you've landed on the right balance, Tlaero. Story breadcrumbs that might theoretically allow the player to solve the mystery before the MC are brilliant -- I love them -- but only if they are subtle.

When subtlety goes out the window, heavy handed hints can ruin the story. Hollywood screenwriters, for instance, often treat their audience like morons by -- say -- highlighting a 'Chekhov's gun' moment early in a screenplay with all the subtlety of a T-Rex in a china shop.

Clues, hints, allusions, etc are great... but please treat me (the audience) like an intelligent adult human, not a gibbering chimp. (You do in your games... I have high hopes for the dog-related breadcrumbs in Toro!)

 

[jufot]

Thanks for the recommendation: jufot will have to check it against his own criteria.

This is becoming a bit of a habit, Raife. Yet again you write something I thoroughly agree with, word for word

 

[realjitter]

On the other hand, we'll put "Help me step-bro, I'm stuck!".
-
On the other hand, we'll put "Help me bro, I'm stuck!". -patched & fixed

 

[vneotpolemus]

To each his own, of course... and I do like old fashioned text-based AVNs. But mind control? Pass. Just my personal, aesthetic preference...

This is becoming a bit of a habit, Raife. Yet again you write something I thoroughly agree with, word for word

Well, that's unfortunate. I've enjoyed games both of you have recommended and your analyses is always interest. Would have been nice to return the favor. I could probably write a couple of paragraphs on why I don't think Accidental Mind is that kind of game, and how the LIs retain their agency, but eh, I get it. What we like and what we don't like is heart-not-head. If the situations were reversed I doubt you could talk me around either.

 

[jufot]

Would have been nice to return the favor. I could probably write a couple of paragraphs on why I don't think Accidental Mind is that kind of game, and how the LIs retain their agency, but eh, I get it.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm still willing to give it a shot, especially when it's recommended by a regular of this thread! It's just that my expectations are tempered for all the reasons Raife mentioned

 

[jufot]

Elvensang (a game I only know about thanks to you folks!) has an

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. Public release should follow in a week or so.

The episode is quite long and really good. A lot of things happen, and we also get to learn a little bit more about Anasteya's (MC's mom) history. I can't say more without spoiling things I do recommend the episode 4 discussion channel on Discord if you're interested.

What's even more notable, though, is that I think Worlaix is on his way to deliver a mother/son incestual relationship that isn't porny at all. That's probably an AVN first! I've had a lengthy discussion with him about this, and came away with the impression that he's very committed to avoiding what we call porn-logic here. We aren't fully on the same page, but I'm convinced that if anyone can deliver "realistic incest" it's him.

A big part of this is Anasteya's personality. She's domineering, cynical, misanthropic and utterly amoral. Something in her past caused her to give up everything she held dear, and the only thing that matters to her now is protecting her son, especially from her past. Doriel, the MC, has something of an oedipus complex - which is quite understandable as he grew up in a forest with only his mother for company. They are also shunned and ridiculed by the nearby townspeople for belonging to a hated minority.

Add all of that together, and you get fertile ground for an otherwise unlikely relationship. I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.

 

[Jaike]

I've posted a review of Ladykiller in a Bind, a lezdom VN I've plugged a lot in here, so if you want to know why I think it's so so good you can now read about it at more length than I'd ever dare to ramble in this thread.

Looks like there is 12 years of comics there, way too intimidating Like, I've been reading

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for the past 13 years but I absolutely couldn't start it from scratch if I were to discover it now.

Hmm? I haven't read a lot of it, but I think the comic is like managable. It's not a difficult read.

Some of the political angle is a little weird and can feel dated, but some of the jabs about tokenism are still current.

That said, I think we have very different definitions of vanilla, because having 6 arms isn't what I'd consider vanilla.

It never came to my mind that someone could find that not vanilla, but fair I suppose. I myself see 8 human limbs as still vanilla, but a human torso with 8 spider legs as very unvanilla.

Skimming a few parts, it looks like the comic has furries but no furry sex: the furries are heckling an animalistic superhero.

It's like the 'tree falls in the forest' philosophical question: if my game has a porny opening, but nobody knows it's not porny (due to future plot developments) is it really porny? My ruling is: it's porny!

My ruling is the opposite. If later developments make something that seems porny actually grounded in the plot, it's grounded.

The only things I dislike more are non-consent and 'sleep sex' (the latter being a particularly creepy and unrealistic form of non-consent)... for substantially the same reason that I reject mind control... coupled with an overlay of general revulsion. I understand intellectually why many players (including female players) enjoy these kinks. But... I don't.

That reminded me of this post.

When subtlety goes out the window, heavy handed hints can ruin the story. Hollywood screenwriters, for instance, often treat their audience like morons by -- say -- highlighting a 'Chekhov's gun' moment early in a screenplay with all the subtlety of a T-Rex in a china shop.

How would you feel about a heavy-handed hint that's subverted? Like there's a Chekhov's gun, but when a character pulls the trigger it doesn't fire, and the plot develops further from there.

 

[realjitter]

I've posted a review of Ladykiller in a Bind, a lezdom VN I've plugged a lot in here, so if you want to know why I think it's so so good you can now read about it at more length than I'd ever dare to ramble in this thread.

Lezdom is like the only thing i'd consider being a kink of mine, but is this game about lezdom?. Because judging by the preview pictures it looks to me like a guy who's forced or whatever to crossdress?

 

[Jaike]

Lezdom is like the only thing i'd consider being a kink of mine, but is this game about lezdom?. Because judging by the preview pictures it looks to me like a guy who's forced or whatever to crossdress?

Yes, it's lezdom. The MC is a tomboy who crossdresses to pass as a man.

Spoiler: Proof

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[Raife]

That reminded me of this post.

How would you feel about a heavy-handed hint that's subverted? Like there's a Chekhov's gun, but when a character pulls the trigger it doesn't fire, and the plot develops further from there.

That post is hilarious... and also accurate. 'Sleep sex' falls into the category of kinks that are, in intellectual terms, pretty interesting... but that I don't find remotely appealing. Like say, vore... but at least some of the vore people have a sense of humour about their preference!

On Chekhov's gun... I _love_ misdirection, red herrings and subversion of audience/player expectations... those are great! A Chekhov's gun that failed to go off, or a heavy focus on the gun that leads nowhere, is fun to play. For example, I enjoy the way Dark Blue subverts expectations regarding sleep sex/molestation in _Hillside_... he enraged half the F95 audience by baiting them with that porn game cliche, but that just increased my glee!

 

[Raife]

It never came to my mind that someone could find that not vanilla, but fair I suppose. I myself see 8 human limbs as still vanilla, but a human torso with 8 spider legs as very unvanilla.

Speaking of vanilla: it's amazing how bad, unrealistic and anti-erotic most 'vanilla' is in these games. I'm not sure if PornHub is to blame, or audience expectations shaped by porn tropes, or what. It makes for a lot of shitty sex scenes.

One of jufot's current favourites, A Long Journey, is an exception... it has a realistic and erotic depiction of an initial 'vanilla' sexual encounter between two people who don't know each other very well. There's a tentative exploration and intimacy in that scene that's 100% true to life... longing and desire, leavened by trepidation. I'd love to see more of that in games.

If you get vanilla sex right in the context of a nascent relationship it opens up a range of other appealing things for the dev to explore. In ALJ the latest chapter shows how tentative intimacy can curdle if trust is lost, but also how hints how it might grow into something better. That's tasty vanilla.

 

[Raife]

Elvensang (a game I only know about thanks to you folks!) has an

You must be registered to see the links

. Public release should follow in a week or so.

The episode is quite long and really good.... I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.

I've been a Worlaix supporter from the beginning, partly due to: (1) his art style; (2) his obsessive world building (it's sort of _Dragon Age_ or _Witcher_-esque, in how he treats elves); (3) an emphasis on story; and (4) some highly idiosyncratic characters.

It is very likely that Worlaix has bit off more than he can chew: like many devs, his ambitions mean that it completing his game could take centuries. I also don't get the sense that he has a clear grasp where his plot is going, unlike more tightly scripted and better-designed games. But Elvensang is interesting and frequently surprising... and that unpredictability keeps me playing.

 

[jufot]

It is very likely that Worlaix has bit off more than he can chew: like many devs, his ambitions mean that it completing his game could take centuries. I also don't get the sense that he has a clear grasp where his plot is going, unlike more tightly scripted and better-designed games.

That used to be my impression too, until I talked to him. It seems he's aware of the dangers of scope creep and is taking steps to rein it in. For example, my choices in episode 3 has put me on a path that apparently no longer exists as of episode 4 because he decided to merge it into one of the existing paths.

I've also asked him about long-term plans. He has solid ideas for the next several episodes, and vague thoughts about potential endings. His biggest bottleneck remains art, but he's dedicated to improving in both quality and speed.

Spoiler: Although I have no idea why he worries about quality...

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[boobsrcool]

jufot have you tried No More Money?