Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

I recommend Chasing Beth.

Tlaero

Joel is one of my favourite characters... possibly my favourite male MC. I explicitly excluded your games from my whinge, though...

But... Joel might be worth discussing. As I recall, there was a odd player on the Chasing Beth thread who reacted very negatively to Joel -- essentially for all the reasons that I found Joel compelling and fun to play. I remember that you were exceptionally patient in dealing with that particular troll.

Do you think that Joel-types have more niche appeal -- concentrated among the sorts of players who populate this thread? What's your experience as a dev?

 

[Tlaero]

Joel is one of my favourite characters... possibly my favourite male MC. I explicitly excluded your games from my whinge, though...

But... Joel might be worth discussing. As I recall, there was a odd player on the Chasing Beth thread who reacted very negatively to Joel -- essentially for all the reasons that I found Joel compelling and fun to play. I remember that you were exceptionally patient in dealing with that particular troll.

Do you think that Joel-types have more niche appeal -- concentrated among the sorts of players who populate this thread? What's your experience as a dev?

Well, there is a reason that the majority of MCs are the way they are. But there's also a reason why most of the games released aren't story first. Any game we're talking about here is inherently in a niche of a niche sort of situation.

The overriding feedback that I get for my male MCs is that they're "too weak." Although, what people generally mean by that is that they want to play people who have sex with everything that moves, not ones who are emotionally supportive of their broken girlfriends.

Interestingly, I did NOT get that feedback (much) for Joel. Most of the negative feedback I got for Joel was people rebelling at the fact that Serena wasn't emotionally over her previous crush. It harkened back to the discussions we've had here where any potential competition for the player is unacceptable.

I'm not going to stop doing what I do, but devs who want mass appeal and large numbers of patrons probably shouldn't follow the advice here.

Tlaero

 

[MyGirlsNowYoink]

Has anyone suggested Avalon yet? I swear the games feels story based or maybe it's just me.

 

[TheimmortalP]

Neither of them are story-first games I don't mind if they are mentioned in a larger comment that is mostly relevant to this thread, but otherwise it's better to keep that discussion elsewhere.

Sorry, forgot to delete the post. Did so now.

 

[TheimmortalP]

I think the challenge you've got in finding recommendations for well-paced games is that, even more than story focused, "well-paced" is in the eye of the beholder..

You'll have some people who will feel that if you don't have a sex scene in the first 5 minutes, it's boring and not worth their time. And you'll have others who feel that if sex happens in the first few hours, it's too soon. Neither is wrong. Even for a given developer, different stories will have differing sexual ramps. If the game is about meeting a shy girl and eventually building a relationship with her, the sex will come much later than if the game is about a couple who already lives together. I've done both of those games (and many others in between). The pacing varies with the story.

Tlaero

The pacing I'm looking for has nothing to do with the frequency of the sex, what I'm looking for is for the game to keep moving.

I feel like almost everything I've read latey has these long moments where there's slow conversation that goes 20 minutes and the conversation isn't compelling enough to justify its length, and I end up not reading anything for like a month because I need a break. (sorry for bringing 2 non-story first games again Jufot, but it's relevant) Melody and The Author are like this, and while they're 2 of my faves, I need to avoid them for a while so I can enjoy reading again. I found what I was looking for with the game that I mentioned before, but I'd like to find it again with some story-first games as well.

So please, can you recommend some story-first games with super good pacing? I know that One Night Stand is like this, and I love it, but it's super super early access.

 

[Tlaero]

The pacing I'm looking for has nothing to do with the frequency of the sex, what I'm looking for is for the game to keep moving.

Have you played my games? In my past I was a novelist, and pacing is an important part of successful writing. But the right pace is still in the eye of the reader.

Tlaero

 

[Raife]

The overriding feedback that I get for my male MCs is that they're "too weak." Although, what people generally mean by that is that they want to play people who have sex with everything that moves, not ones who are emotionally supportive of their broken girlfriends.

Interestingly, I did NOT get that feedback (much) for Joel. Most of the negative feedback I got for Joel was people rebelling at the fact that Serena wasn't emotionally over her previous crush. It harkened back to the discussions we've had here where any potential competition for the player is unacceptable.

I thought Joel was a fantastic MC -- he had been through a hellish situation, but strong friendships and an inherent strength of character allowed him to recover.

The real test of that strength was how he managed his relationship under stress... and your writing revealed him to be an immensely strong, moral, caring person. He is certainly the sort of man I aspire to be. That episode reminded me a bit of something that C.S. Lewis said:

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues but the form of every virtue at the testing point, which means at the point of highest reality."

For Joel, the crisis in his relationship with Serena was that testing point... and it allowed him to 'show his quality.' I thought it was extremely satisfying... and, frankly, did not understand the players who complained about it. It was brilliantly contrived.

I guess this is a long way of saying that I'd love to play more MCs like Joel.

 

[boobsrcool]

I recommend Chasing Beth.

Tlaero

Just finished. Great game thanks. Where would you suggest starting with your work if I enjoyed this one?

 

[Tlaero]

Just finished. Great game thanks. Where would you suggest starting with your work if I enjoyed this one?

Thanks! The omnibus has the first 5 games in that series as well as a number of short stories. It's a great place to start:
https://f95zone.to/threads/elsaverse-omnibus-vol-1-tora-productions.90315/

Tlaero

 

[TheimmortalP]

Hey Jufot, I don't know if this counts, but I just found out from this video that there's this game called The Seven Realms where you're a Vampire Prince, and apparantly you can play it in a way where you don't have sex with anyone, althought you will see some nudity.

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https://f95zone.to/threads/the-seven-realms-v0-10-septcloud.112700/

 

[TheimmortalP]

Thanks! The omnibus has the first 5 games in that series as well as a number of short stories. It's a great place to start:
https://f95zone.to/threads/elsaverse-omnibus-vol-1-tora-productions.90315/

Tlaero

Oh wow, you're the creator behind The Elsaverse series? That's great, I constantly hear nothing but good things about the series, and I've been thinking about how I wanna play more stuff by people who are really good at consistantly finishing games and putting them out instead of playing stuff by people that work on the same game for like 4+ years and only have like 1 completed game out. I'll check your stuff out, looking forward to talking about your games in the future.

 

[jufot]

Hey Jufot, I don't know if this counts, but I just found out from this video that there's this game called The Seven Realms where you're a Vampire Prince, and apparantly you can play it in a way where you don't have sex with anyone, althought you will see some nudity.

While I've had a positive first impression, it went off the rails with poorly thought-out choices. Eventually, I decided to pull it off the list :/

 

[TheimmortalP]

While I've had a positive first impression, it went off the rails with poorly thought-out choices. Eventually, I decided to pull it off the list :/

Aw god, I'm sorry.

 

[jufot]

No worries, it just wasn't what I hoped for

 

[TheimmortalP]

No worries, it just wasn't what I hoped for

Btw, can you tell me what of your list has a decent amount of content (like at least a few hours, or better yet, completed) that's super well paced? Like I said, I know that ONS is well paced, but it's only got like a half hour or so of content, and it's super early access. And I know that Elsaverse is well paced, but what else?

 

[jufot]

Well paced is subjective so YMMV, but just from a quick look:

- A Long Journey
- Blackberry Honey (+)
- Cardinal Cross (+)
- Elvensang
- Intertwined
- Oathbreaker 1 & 2 (+)
- Price of Power
- The Bite: Revenant
- The Warrior's Heart (+)

The ones with (+) are completed.

 

[Raife]

Oh wow, you're the creator behind The Elsaverse series? That's great, I constantly hear nothing but good things about the series, and I've been thinking about how I wanna play more stuff by people who are really good at consistantly finishing games

She is the house celebrity of the Story-First Games thread, in addition to being the best, most consistent producer of such games -- at least in my view. (If you want to witness embarrassing fanboyism, roll back this thread until she first appears... I did some seriously lame kowtowing.)

That said, I'm still in mourning for Morze's unfinished Star Wars game, which was intriguing and beautiful.

 

[Raife]

Well paced is subjective so YMMV, but just from a quick look:

- A Long Journey
- Blackberry Honey (+)
- Cardinal Cross (+)
- Elvensang
- Intertwined
- Oathbreaker 1 & 2 (+)
- Price of Power
- The Bite: Revenant
- The Warrior's Heart (+)

The ones with (+) are completed.

If the criteria is 'unflagging interest episode-to-episode due to effective pacing', I am in broad agreement with your list, with caveats:

-A Long Journey is at quite an early stage, so I'm not willing to endorse it, yet. It's very promising... but I think the dev is too ambitious.
-Elvensang is great... but it takes the dev over six months to produce each new update, so I'm not sure if he has the stamina to finish the project.
-Intertwined is a brilliant project, but has flaws -- in particular the pointless 'stepsisters' subplot which messes up the pacing and distracts from the main plot and LIs.
-Warrior's Heart is first class in every way... but it is a finished _episode_ in an unfinished series.
-The Bite is a bit like A Long Journey: it is early days and each new episode has been unfailingly high-quality. But the dev's ambitions are off the charts (he is creating a detailed skills system that is barely used, thus far) -- and I'm concerned that he has bitten off more than he can chew.

Still, all these projects are worth your time.

 

[Hildegardt]

In other news, according to a comment in the game's thread, Mad World is still being worked on. Apparently there hasn't been an update for a year not only for personal reasons, but also because the next update will supposedly be "gargantuan" in the dev's own words.
I saw the game in the list and I agree that it's not only story first, but the story and characters are also pretty good.

I've also been searching this thread for mentions of The Entrepreneur and I only found a single one. The initial setup seemed a bit tropey, but it turned out to be a nice story-driven game.
I like that the romantic progression is very focused. The PC gets to know the women, gets to spend some bonding time with them and then can get into a relationship with them with a sex scene as the climax. There are some sex scenes with side characters as fan service sprinkled in, but the romances with the LIs are anything but fan service. They also all play their own roles in the main plot.
What I don't like as much is that it's very easy to steer every relationship into a romantic direction. You just pick the choices that make the most sense to you and suddenly you're faced with having to break up a relationship you never knew you had. Your choices definitely matter and the latest update even has a scene indicating that cheating will have consequences, but it looks like, no matter what you do, there's no way around having to actively reject or break up with the LIs you didn't go for.
Also the next update will be the last one, so it looks like the game will stay true to its story and not get drawn out for more porn content, which is a plus in my eyes.

 

[EndlessNights]

What I don't like as much is that it's very easy to steer every relationship into a romantic direction. You just pick the choices that make the most sense to you and suddenly you're faced with having to break up a relationship you never knew you had. Your choices definitely matter and the latest update even has a scene indicating that cheating will have consequences, but it looks like, no matter what you do, there's no way around having to actively reject or break up with the LIs you didn't go for.

Exactly. The Entrepreneur is a very likable game I've enjoyed playing, but at the end of the day it sacrifices realistic relationship development for player convenience. Harems aren't realistic so I commend the game for making players make a choice, but it's also incredibly unrealistic for practically every woman in a man's life to fall passionately in love with him at the exact same time. This hasn't ever happened to me even though I'm the most charming person I know.

It's nice for players that they can choose their favorite LI without getting every choice right, but I think it would be better if the person who fell in love with the MC was the one he'd been actively choosing to spend time with, get to know, and be there for. There's also no reason you shouldn't be able to tell the other characters you are interested in someone else rather than falling into a kind of relationship with all of them. Three of the main LIs are roommates and close friends who'd likely be happy to learn the MC is interested in someone they care about. I'd much rather have at least had the option to be transparent than lead everyone on which is more or less what the MC is forced to do to an extent. Seeing the characters get hurt when you don't choose them is heartbreaking.

I haven't explored the consequences of every choice yet, but I have to say I was a little shocked to find out you can sleep with the rival of one of the LIs, hurt her intensely by doing that, slowly and painfully rebuild your friendship, and still have her fall in love with the MC in record time. I seem to have inadvertently laid the seeds for an abusive relationship in that playthrough...oops. I am a bit tempted to try a side girl only run (or three) because two of them are among the most horrible yet memorable characters I've ever encountered in a VN, but if the MC doesn't get kicked out of the house on that "route" the game needs to be classified as pure fantasy.