Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

It's Jufot's thread, but I figure if we can talk about things we don't like in games and discuss how to fix them, then text speed is on topic.

Honestly, only the OP is mine. This thread is more than a year old and most of the regulars have been around for at least several months, if not from the beginning. The scope has grown since then, and I'd like to think everyone uses their best judgement when introducing something new to our thread

 

[Raife]

Haha, that's exactly how I started university, a long time ago. Perhaps that's why it doesn't bother me

That was exactly my conceit at the time: "I can do anything well, so whatever I do will work out." Oh, to be an impossibly young, callow, testosterone-addled male. What a moron!

But... in a way, the young me was right in the end. It _did_ work out for me, despite blundering into every mistake known to humanity in between points A and B. I'm not exactly eager to reply that period in life, though... so here's to male MCs above the age of 30 with a more mature mindset... especially towards LIs!

Separate topic: I liked the _Callisto_ follow-on _Stellar Crossroads_ -- but I really enjoyed the Calisto introductory narrative as well... until it crashed into a sandbox. For my money so far, _Stellar Crossroads_ has a better male sidekick/friend/source of comic relief, but _Callisto_ features a better MC origin story. The space heir/'bro of destiny' origin story is prosaic.

With any luck the dev managed to learn the 'less is more' lesson from Callisto... we could have done without the sandbox and the under-powered trading system... which, to my mind, were distractions from the story.

 

[Tlaero]

https://f95zone.to/threads/unren-ba...compiler-console-developer-menu-enabler.3083/
both the 1.0.5 version, and the ultrahack v7 generally have success with 7.5->8.0 packages.

I've personally used both and had no problems with any games made with newer versions of renpy so far.

Thanks Noping! I used the ultrahack to decompile Alpha-Omega and verify that removing the what_slow_cps settings from the characters fixes the text speed. Good to have this tool handy.

Tlaero

 

[Raife]

It's Jufot's thread, but I figure if we can talk about things we don't like in games and discuss how to fix them, then text speed is on topic. In your case, it turned out to be a programming thing, but it could have been someone doing it for stylistic reasons (ie, trying to make it sound like the character was speaking slowly, etc) and then it would be totally on topic.

Tlaero

It _is_ jufot's thread, but the scope has grown. I also like to think of it as an oasis for story-first devs thread/refuge from the rest of this hellsite thread... so your posts were very much on topic in that sense.

jufot failed to mention that we got booted from the moderated recommendations list for _supposedly_ going off topic... which I thought was a totally bogus pretext at the time. In retrospect, though, it allowed for fuller, more enjoyable conversations about story-first games... without interference.

 

[noping123]

With any luck the dev managed to learn the 'less is more' lesson from Callisto... we could have done without the sandbox and the under-powered trading system... which, to my mind, were distractions from the story.

I took a small break after I published my last chapter - during that time I played a lot of games. I tried to play a lot of sandbox games, since I was generally of the opinion that I actually *LIKE* the weird sort of grindy gameplay.

What I found are 2 things: #1, sandbox is incredibly difficult to do well, and almost no one does (so generally people shouldn't try)

#2: I don't actually like sandbox games. What I prefer are quasi-sandbox. (A particular college game that jufot absolutely LOVES is a perfect example. Lots of side stuff, free roam events, etc, but not a true sandbox either). Games that give you some level of choice/freedom, but within very specific confines.

I think that style is one people should do if they want to try something sandbox-y. I know some people hate it, personally I like it, and I don't feel like it detracts from the rest of the game anywhere near as much as "true" sandbox modes do.

 

[Raife]

#2: I don't actually like sandbox games. What I prefer are quasi-sandbox. (A particular college game that jufot absolutely LOVES is a perfect example. Lots of side stuff, free roam events, etc, but not a true sandbox either). Games that give you some level of choice/freedom, but within very specific confines.

I think that style is one people should do if they want to try something sandbox-y. I know some people hate it, personally I like it, and I don't feel like it detracts from the rest of the game anywhere near as much as "true" sandbox modes do.

Yep -- I agree with you 100%, noping. 'True sandbox' is almost never done well; the few sandbox-y games I enjoy have a quasi-sandbox (or limited sandbox) mode that serves as a storytelling device. jufot's favourite game executes limited sandbox quite effectively... I certainly don't mind playing through it.

 

[Raife]

Honestly, only the OP is mine. This thread is more than a year old and most of the regulars have been around for at least several months, if not from the beginning. The scope has grown since then, and I'd like to think everyone uses their best judgement when introducing something new to our thread

In retrospect, if you hadn't started this thread one or both of us would have eventually been banned from F95....

 

[Tlaero]

I'd like to hear more about what people don't like about sandbox games. Am I understanding correctly that "freely click where you want to go" is not a problem but the "work out in the gym over and over again to get your stat up" is what people don't like?

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

Am I understanding correctly that "freely click where you want to go" is not a problem but the "work out in the gym over and over again to get your stat up" is what people don't like?

For me, it's definitely the latter. I hate being asked to grind the same thing over and over again just to build some stat so I can unlock the next grind :/

 

[noping123]

I'd like to hear more about what people don't like about sandbox games. Am I understanding correctly that "freely click where you want to go" is not a problem but the "work out in the gym over and over again to get your stat up" is what people don't like?

Tlaero

For me, it's sort of the other way around. I don't actually mind "work out in the gym over and over again to get your stat up" (ahem. I might have literally exactly that in my game....... although it's just a short minigame that you can technically skip)

But "freely click where you want to go" almost ALWAYS leads to what feels like a bunch of disconnected stories that don't really have anything to do with each other. A sort of "quasi-sandbox" like I mentioned above is generally more limited, so everything can be kept much tighter, and you can maintain cohesion between different storylines/tighter storytelling, but once you seperate everything into a true sandbox, it just ends up becoming a bunch of separate stories and inevitably almost every game does one of two things : #1 unlock conditions (complete story X to proceed to story Y, to proceed to story Z, etc) in which case.... why? or #2 the sandbox mode eventually ends so the seemingly unrelated stories can be brought together properly.

Now that said, I'm NOT a huge fan of locking progress behind massive grinds. A short little "do this" is generally ok but once you get into "Grind this for x amount of time and then you can proceed to the next bit" is generally pointless and annoying.

 

[Raife]

I'd like to hear more about what people don't like about sandbox games. Am I understanding correctly that "freely click where you want to go" is not a problem but the "work out in the gym over and over again to get your stat up" is what people don't like?

Tlaero

I'll take a crack.

1) For 'completionist' players (like yours truly) a true sandbox can create too many paths to easily follow and double-back on. Once you hit the sandbox a couple of times, it's hard to do strategic saves. It's also hard to identify optimal paths or narrative threads. If I speak to character A during sandbox run one, and don't speak to character A during sandbox run two, am I missing dialogue or LI options?
2) It can be difficult to tell where to go. This is particularly true if there is a 'time of day' element and certain characters are not present in some locations.
3) True sandbox is just generally confusing... it is supposed to empower the player, but it can leave me feeling powerless... too many choices (or too many complex choices) can make choice feel less meaningful.

A more limited, clearly bounded sandbox -- connected to narrative threads at either end -- is far easier to navigate. It becomes a means of having the player choose the order of dialogues in a given story location, rather than a confusing 'map without a compass.'

There's more that I could add... but I'll stop for now.

 

[jufot]

Thoughts on The Hellcat Lounge? It's a slice of life VN set around a rock bar. It's early days for the game, and the central premise is quite porny (Two best friends have a crush on MC, so four girls have a contest to pursue him and break the stalemate) but I'm really enjoying it

There is plenty to like here. The characters are all interesting, including the men. The banter is fun and flows easily. Sex scenes are humorous in just the right way. The soundtrack is an excellent fit. The renders are gorgeous, as are the animations. Everyone is tattooed up to their eyeballs!

I also like that the LIs are not all equally available. Lita, for example, is in a committed relationship with a woman. She has rules, and is only willing to fool around with MC with her girlfriend's knowledge and permission, and only as part of the contest. Unfortunately for me, she is the only one I'm drawn to. Foul-mouthed rocker chicks with attitude problems are such a turn on!

EDIT: I forgot the most important thing! The MC has body hair! How rare is that ?!?

 

[TheimmortalP]

Well paced is subjective so YMMV, but just from a quick look:

- A Long Journey
- Blackberry Honey (+)
- Cardinal Cross (+)
- Elvensang
- Intertwined
- Oathbreaker 1 & 2 (+)
- Price of Power
- The Bite: Revenant
- The Warrior's Heart (+)

The ones with (+) are completed.

THank you very much for this list!

And yeah, I was gonna ask if this counts, as it just completed, but it's already on your list. Was it not on your list when you made this post?

https://f95zone.to/threads/leap-of-faith-ch-8-driftygames.48734/

 

[jufot]

Was it not on your list when you made this post?

No, it's been there for quite some time. Perhaps since the beginning. Though there are some here who are not so fond of LoF

 

[TheimmortalP]

No, it's been there for quite some time. Perhaps since the beginning. Though there are some here who are not so fond of LoF

Because it's so depressing?

How well does it deal with the topic of suicide?

Edit: Also, I just noticed that Acting Lessons isn't on the list, is it poorly paced?

 

[jufot]

Because it's so depressing?

How well does it deal with the topic of suicide?

Don't ask me, I like the game! Perhaps others will chime in.

Edit: Also, I just noticed that Acting Lessons isn't on the list, is it poorly paced?

Acting Lessons is in the OP. I don't remember why I didn't include it in the list I gave you. It's an older game and I don't fully recall what I did or didn't like. Give it a shot

 

[avent0001]

Race of Life seems a good candidate do add to the list

 

[Vasin]

Okay, so I played the grand finale of "Leap of Faith" and, well, it's exactly what it is, a feel good bittersweet epilogue for a nice story. I don't do 10 different playthroughs to see all possible paths and find all the hidden things because I find it cheapens the experience and lessens the narrative punch for me, but for the route I've gone with it tied the ending quite nicely, we've got some cameos with characters from other games and a giant scene with "spot them all" with people from a whole bunch of other VNs. I do find it somewhat too 4th wall breaking but it didn't bother me much. (I do think Entrepreneur did it much better with cameoing 2 other VNs with just bg imagery, but it's not as bad as Bare Witness that just bombards you with "hey check out this character from that game). Overall a great finale for a great game.

And then I was like "let's try out that latest recommendation" and played Hellcat Lounge. Wow. I think that game takes the cake for the best, most organic banter I've seen put in VN. It feels to me like a game "Become a Rockstar" wants to be in it's wildest wet dreams, but never will. Unfortunately my interest in it took a huge hit after I realized Chris wasn't (seemingly) on the cards, but I still enjoyed it immensely. Blending animation and static screens and tutorializing it in such a clever manner deserves separate praise. Renders and music are both great, the only tiny-tiny nitpick I have is that all the tattoos on pretty much every character in all vns are way too bright. They look either like they've been made 2 weeks ago, or are fake temp ones. I bet there's an opacity slider somewhere, or saturation, or something. Regardless, a great recommendation and I left a glowing fucking review.

P.S. Oh, and what's up with that version number? Are we 100 versions away from 0.2? That's a bit disconcerting, if futureproof.

 

[realjitter]

I also finished reading Leap of faith

I only played one route (Keira solo) and it got pretty messy and a bit overblown at the end for various reasons. This game is clearly the Cece story which is a good and a bad thing at the same time imho. Good because the story itself about her and how the developer handles it is pretty decently done. It's still of course a completely fairytale version of the whole topic...
I'm not a suicide expert by all means, but i did work in a locked psychiatric ward for 4 years and during that time i saw quite a few patients who're considered being a danger to themselfes. At first i was a bit apprehensive about the whole idea of people getting fixated, but i quickly learned why that is..

Anyways, unlike this game reality is of course not a fairytale and from what i understood the developer also did experience a suicide in his family. So when it comes to Cece it's obviously a pretty complex and sensitive topic which i won't get too far into it other than saying that you should try to seek out professional help if you're dealing with those kind of dark thoughts.
The reason why professional help is the way to go, imo, is that you just can't tell if you're making things better or worse with what you're doing as a friend or familiy member even if you're meaning well. Something is broken somewhere and sadly it, most of the time, can't be fixed by love alone. =\

But the game itself? idk.. it kinda lost me starting around chapter 5 or so. It felt to me like a yoyo going up and down constantly ranging from being pretty good to becoming way too corny and dull for my liking... Or another comparison for me would be someone sitting next to you reading fortune cookies to you for 3 hours straight and you're just nodding your head the whole time

It was just a very mixed bag for me and it was pretty fucking corny most of the time. It's kinda like the opposite of how you'd get me emotionally invested into something. I even started skipping near the end because it just became reunion after reunion after...There's alot more you could write about this AVN, good and bad, but i'm just gonna leave it here..

So overall a pretty harmless game with a very personal story from the developer. Nothing wrong here despite me not being really into it.. If i'd give it a official rating i'd give it a 5/5, but for me personally it was more like a 3/5. Different people like different stuff i guess...

 

[camube]

and played Hellcat Lounge. Wow. I think that game takes the cake for the best, most organic banter I've seen put in VN.

sold. Gonna check it out in a couple months.