Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

BTW -- For an almost perfect encapsulation of the dilemma facing story-first devs, read the reviews of _Corporate Culture_ in the game's OP.

Perhaps two-thirds of the game's reviews are from people like us who think it is an astonishing piece of work -- like nothing else on this site. The other third can be summarized as:

1. "Bro, I can't wank off to this game. What kind of AVN is this?! It's a fraud and sux, man." OR,
2. "This story is confusing, dude. It has words and stuff. This blows. It shouldn't even be allowed on this site, because it's so boring and has zero fucking with the main girls. Ban it."

Result: review average, 4-stars... which is almost exactly the same as WVM.

 

[yossa999]

BTW -- For an almost perfect encapsulation of the dilemma facing story-first devs, read the reviews of _Corporate Culture_ in the game's OP.

Perhaps two-thirds of the game's reviews are from people like us who think it is an astonishing piece of work -- like nothing else on this site. The other third can be summarized as:

1. "Bro, I can't wank off to this game. What kind of AVN is this?! It's a fraud and sux, man." OR,
2. "This story is confusing, dude. It has words and stuff. This blows. It shouldn't even be allowed on this site, because it's so boring and has zero fucking with the main girls. Ban it."

Result: review average, 4-stars... which is almost exactly the same as WVM.

Doesn't this apply to any game whose plot goes even slightly beyond the porn tropes? Sometimes I think they just leave these reviews for themselves so they can remember lately if this game is wankable or not.

 

[Éama]

(Making Summer heat a truly wasted potential in my eyes.)
Porn with story or vice versa will always be a polarizing and somewhat contradicting topic.

I mean we could call well written sex stories erotica instead, but the only difference between pornography and erotica is that porn is sensational in its depiction while erotica tends to be more reserved. It doesn't really say much about the quality of the writing.

 

[Raife]

I hope Emilia's arc won't be that of the "big baddie who just needs a hug" trope because I really like her as a proper villain.

Likewise. I enjoy both anti-heroes AND self-conscious villains:

The best anti-heroes retain all of their most negative qualities throughout their character arc, but sometimes deploy them (intentionally or unintentionally) in heroic ways. So... a well-written anti-hero Emilia would be like a tiger... who has some measure of positive agency and restraint towards those who amuse her, but who revels in violence and consumes the innocent and the evil alike. Anti-heroes like this are sometimes baffled by their grudging regard for good characters, express contempt for them, and generally see their failure to destroy them as a weakness. Hugs just make them angry.

The best villains are self-aware and self-hating, but remain evil. Violence and cruelty, for them, is an act of self-punishment, of self-immolation. They hate themselves and what they do... but they choose to do it anyway. They can be children who were horribly abused... who themselves become abusers. They retain full moral consciousness. Hugs and compassion are met with more violence.

Emilia could fall into either category. She's already an interesting character, but could be a great one.

 

[Raife]

Doesn't this apply to any game whose plot goes even slightly beyond the porn tropes? Sometimes I think they just leave these reviews for themselves so they can remember lately if this game is wankable or not.

Sure. It's just that the CC OP involves some particularly absurd examples.

What annoys me the most about those reviews is that they denigrate an entire genre of AVNs simply because they do not fulfill their particular desires or fetishes.

If you review a story-first game, you should review it as a story-first game. As the American film critic Roger Ebert used to say, a reviewer should measure action movies against other action movies, not against acclaimed dramas. They're not the same thing.

For example, I don't go on to porny game OPs and complain that the game is too porny. Nor do I go on to vore game OPs and give those games one star for having vore.

None of this would matter if it did not discourage some players from trying out story-first games, and dissuade developers from following their creative muse instead of sticking to porny conventions. But it does.

 

[Raife]

I mean we could call well written sex stories erotica instead, but the only difference between pornography and erotica is that porn is sensational in its depiction while erotica tends to be more reserved.

Not quite.

Porn and erotica can (and often do) coincide... but the venn diagram would have large, non-overlapping sections.

For example, if I hold your hand and slowly begin caressing the soft part of your palm, between your thumb and forefinger... it could be erotic, depending on the context. It certainly would not be pornographic.

Most of what appears on this website is porn: exclusively visual and mechanical, the sort of thing that excites teenage boys or incels. There's nothing wrong with that... I just find it very boring.

A truly great sex scene in a game should involve both, but to my mind it should dwell on the erotic. Soft touches. Thoughts. Feelings. Subtle sensations. The all-consuming idea of the other person. It's very rarely achieved in AVNs. Hell, it's quite rarely achieved in life.

The first time that I kissed my wife (18 years ago) was hardly the first time I'd been kissed. But it might as well have been, because of how radically different it felt. This was someone who desired _me_, not as a sex object or even an attractive guy, but for _me_. It was like opening a door to a strange house, and finding you were home... or dancing perfectly with someone, to a tune that only the two of you could hear, without knowing the steps. That's eroticism.

 

[Ezykeyal]

Raife , do you write/ever considered creating an AVN?

 

[Hildegardt]

Not quite.

Porn and erotica can (and often do) coincide... but the venn diagram would have large, non-overlapping sections.

For example, if I hold your hand and slowly begin caressing the soft part of your palm, between your thumb and forefinger... it could be erotic, depending on the context. It certainly would not be pornographic.

Most of what appears on this website is porn: exclusively visual and mechanical, the sort of thing that excites teenage boys or incels. There's nothing wrong with that... I just find it very boring.

A truly great sex scene in a game should involve both, but to my mind it should dwell on the erotic. Soft touches. Thoughts. Feelings. Subtle sensations. The all-consuming idea of the other person. It's very rarely achieved in AVNs. Hell, it's quite rarely achieved in life.

The first time that I kissed my wife (18 years ago) was hardly the first time I'd been kissed. But it might as well have been, because of how radically different it felt. This was someone who desired _me_, not as a sex object or even an attractive guy, but for _me_. It was like opening a door to a strange house, and finding you were home... or dancing perfectly with someone, to a tune that only the two of you could hear, without knowing the steps. That's eroticism.

I think Éama's point was that erotica isn't inherently better quality compared to porn. We can see the difference between the two, because they focus on different things, but an erotic scene can be out of place or badly written just like a porn scene.

One way to look at sex scenes is, as if they were an action scene analogue, because they kinda are, depending on the genre. For example, a fight scene can have good or bad choreography and sex scenes are more or less choreographed, too. You can use two Jedi knights crossing their light sabers as an opportunity to further the plot and their characterization, or you can just have them spin around, because spinning is a good trick. In the same vein porn actors can cross their swords for different purposes.
With this in mind, I don't think AVNs have a problem with eroticism, I think it's a problem with their quality in general. A copy/pasted animation is still low effort, even if it's only meant to be pornographic.

Can't remember the name of this one game, that's about an edgy demon anime protagonist cucking all the men with his magic dick. If this premise could ever make for a good story is probably up to taste, but I remember the sex scenes being very good. The game focused on giving the woman pleasure and had a lot of close-ups of her face to show that, which was pretty sensual.
Anyway, this just came to mind as an example for a game with a silly porny premise, but very erotic action scenes.

 

[jamdan]

With this in mind, I don't think AVNs have a problem with eroticism, I think it's a problem with their quality in general.

Yes, most of these games have low production value. Even the good ones. It's another thing that tilts the advantage to the porn-focused games.

If confronted with two so-so games, people will choose the porn one because at least it scratches their itch for whatever fetish content it has. Whereas story-based games do not, generally speaking.

I had a whole thing written up for your last response to me yesterday. I didn't save it, but it had to do with quality and fetishes. So I'm going to roughly type it again.

You make an important point. The shoe-horned incest and borderline loli stuff, that's very popular on here, doesn't fly for the rest of the internet and that's not just because of credit card companies. These fetishes aren't only niche, they're a turnoff for the general population. It's just that f95zone is very easy and effective advertisement. Compared to how the rest of the indie gamedev scene works it's a godsend.

I do not think it is the fetish content. As far as I can tell, incest is the most popular genre on Literotica (erotic story site). Erotica is the most popular book genre (or close to it) and it's almost always based on some kind of fetish. Step-cest 99% of the porn these days. Fetishes, even fairly taboo ones, are popular. Even in non-AVN circles.

What holds these games back is as you mentioned, general lack of quality. AVN's aren't just competing against other AVN's, they're competing with other forms of entertainment in general.

And that's where the typical F95'er and the others diverge the most. The former does not care about quality much, as long as their fetish is satisfied. Whereas the others want a quality product, regardless of the fetish content.

You can make a story-based game with any fetish. Some just take more skill/effort than others. And coincidently, standard harem/loli/incest games that we've seen dozens of times are, relatively speaking, the lowest skill/effort. While also having the highest potential for money, because as mentioned earlier, the typical F95 user does not care about quality much as long as their fetishes are satisfied and catered to.

 

[Bombmaster]

I think Éama's point was that erotica isn't inherently better quality compared to porn. We can see the difference between the two, because they focus on different things, but an erotic scene can be out of place or badly written just like a porn scene.

One way to look at sex scenes is, as if they were an action scene analogue, because they kinda are, depending on the genre. For example, a fight scene can have good or bad choreography and sex scenes are more or less choreographed, too. You can use two Jedi knights crossing their light sabers as an opportunity to further the plot and their characterization, or you can just have them spin around, because spinning is a good trick. In the same vein porn actors can cross their swords for different purposes.
With this in mind, I don't think AVNs have a problem with eroticism, I think it's a problem with their quality in general. A copy/pasted animation is still low effort, even if it's only meant to be pornographic.

Can't remember the name of this one game, that's about an edgy demon anime protagonist cucking all the men with his magic dick. If this premise could ever make for a good story is probably up to taste, but I remember the sex scenes being very good. The game focused on giving the woman pleasure and had a lot of close-ups of her face to show that, which was pretty sensual.
Anyway, this just came to mind as an example for a game with a silly porny premise, but very erotic action scenes.

Are you talking about rance saga?

And about the problem with realism and people don't enjoying per example CC

Lots of folks want to plug a corny avn to have some escapism, the game delivering realism and creeping despair is fun and all but is a hard sell.

Do you think most folks playing avns read a book or have the needed attention span to really connect without Kaboom or Tits and sex fast. I don't think so.

Smart devs in my book put some quick sex meaningless as they may just to appease the hunger and keep building his story and telling his vision.

 

[Raife]

I think Éama's point was that erotica isn't inherently better quality compared to porn. We can see the difference between the two, because they focus on different things, but an erotic scene can be out of place or badly written just like a porn scene.

I don't disagree. And I certainly agree that most AVNs are very poorly produced.

But I do think that attempts to write truly erotic content into these games are pretty unusual, whether or not it involves sex... partly because it requires considerable skill as a writer in order to do well.

Good quality porn is good quality porn... but I think it's much harder to write high quality erotica, particularly when there's no sex involved.

 

[Cskin Games]

I found a bit of the more recent discussion here interesting - and it got me thinking.

With my new game, my focus is on telling the story I want to tell - nothing more, nothing less.

Now, once my next chapter comes out, there are definitely some people who will play it and see "porn tropes" or things similar to that in it - and some parts of the release are definitely going to play more like a "typical porn game" than anything I've done so far. (That's not to say I'm abandoning the story or anything - it's absolutely there, and will be, but this is also a part of it, at least at the current juncture).

(Small aside - I wouldn't really call any of it porn logic though. One of the benefits of making a game based in a college is... people fucking like rabbits isn't exactly uncommon in that setting - so people randomly hooking up now and then is actually pretty par for the course! But I digress)

This got me to thinking about what's been said over the past few pages and... are devs always "bowing to the pressure"? Or are they making the game they always planned on making - it just so happened to not be what some people may have wanted (or expected)? I'm not saying it's either way, I just think it's an interesting thought.

A lot of times whenever games discussed in here begin to get more "porny", that's the common thing said - they "bowed" to whatever pressure they felt to make something more marketable, or more successful, or whatever - but I think at *LEAST* some of the time, it's people just... making the game they wanted.

It's no doubt some devs get into this seeing the success of some of the more popular games, and are hoping to cash in. However, considering the time investment required, and just how difficult doing this can actually be - I think the majority of devs who get past a 0.2 have a pretty good sense of what they're doing, and aren't going to keep putting in that level of effort unless it's something they really want to do. You see a ton of abandoned games around that mark largely due to devs either wanting financial success and not finding it right away, or really grasping with just how much work it is - but beyond that point, I think it's very rare for people to do anything except what they want.

All of this is a long winded way of saying, I don't think people are "caving" to demands - particularly demands of people on this forum - all that often. I think it's more likely most of the time they're doing what they always wanted to do.

 

[bacienvu88]

A lot of times whenever games discussed in here begin to get more "porny", that's the common thing said - they "bowed" to whatever pressure they felt to make something more marketable, or more successful, or whatever - but I think at *LEAST* some of the time, it's people just... making the game they wanted.

Reminds me a bit of the people complaining about "lesbianism" in AVNs and claiming that devs "bows to the pressure" of whatever patreons say and not considering that the devs themselves might be into it. Probably applicable to other stuff as well.

Anyone who think making an AVN is easy money is a fool. No matter if they try to pander to as many as possible it is hard work for not very much money.

 

[camube]

You see a ton of abandoned games around that mark largely due to devs either wanting financial success and not finding it right away, or really grasping with just how much work it is

What noping said above is exactly why I patron games.

There are some games I want to see the continuation of, and hopefully with the combined support of all patrons, it's enough for these devs to keep going and finish their games.

I don't know if i'm in a position to voiced my take about game dev from a consumer pov but, as a consumer I pay if I want to see the continuation of the game. Put another way, I want to see the vision of that specific dev coming to life.

Whether they take into account patrons opinions or not is secondary to me though. Even if they do take patrons opinions, if it makes the game better, why not.

What I think devs should not do in my opinion is to read each and every posts in their own f95zone (or similar) game thread. I think that would be a distraction more than constructive generally speaking.

 

[Cskin Games]

What I think devs should not do in my opinion is to read each and every posts in their own f95zone (or similar) game thread. I think that would be a distraction more than constructive generally speaking.

Funny (to me) aside - I find it actually hard not to. For example, when I save a file, the entire program I'm using lags up for about 45s-1.5min while it works on saving, so I'm pretty limited in what I can do in that time. Checking forums or reddit threads and reading a post or two is about all I have time for, until the program catches up and I can work again. If I work on ~40 things a day, thats like a solid hour I have nothing to do but read forums (or anything else I can do in under a minute I guess - but the list of productive things you can do in that little time is pretty limited). I always assumed other devs were under the same restriction, though who knows maybe it's just me.

(sometimes I play a level of candy crush on my phone instead. Don't judge me).

 

[bacienvu88]

Don't judge me

(sorry, just had to)

 

[camube]

Funny (to me) aside - I find it actually hard not to. For example, when I save a file, the entire program I'm using lags up for about 45s-1.5min while it works on saving, so I'm pretty limited in what I can do in that time. Checking forums or reddit threads and reading a post or two is about all I have time for, until the program catches up and I can work again. If I work on ~40 things a day, thats like a solid hour I have nothing to do but read forums (or anything else I can do in under a minute I guess - but the list of productive things you can do in that little time is pretty limited). I always assumed other devs were under the same restriction, though who knows maybe it's just me.

(sometimes I play a level of candy crush on my phone instead. Don't judge me).

This post for example, https://f95zone.to/threads/our-red-string-ch-11-epilogue-complete-eva-kiss.48813/post-11974213
I don't think reading this, or reading many posts like these are constructive for Evakiss.
(I didn't cherrypick very hard, there are so many of those on that thread).

I don't think f95zone's Intertwined thread is constructive for Nyx either.

I read Stolenrose's latest (or one before latest) patreon update, and the sense I got from reading the post is that a part of that post stemmed from f95 (or similar forum)'s criticism (it's something about puzzle).

Other devs may able to navigate around reading their own f95 game's thread and looks like they enjoy doing it or even thrive from it, (that's the sense i get from TD of Pale Carnation)

but if the goal of reading their own game thread is to gain insights for future developments, I don't think a dev need the opinions of forum downloaders on their own game thread.

They can ask their patrons for that, or better yet, ask their IRL friends.

 

[Tlaero]

The sad thing is that we used to have a place to have constructive discussions about our games (The Shark's Lagoon). The Lagoon largely dried up, though, and F95 basically replaced it.

Tlaero

 

[bacienvu88]

The sad thing is that we used to have a place to have constructive discussions about our games (The Shark's Lagoon). The Lagoon largely dried up, though, and F95 basically replaced it.

Tlaero

I only ever lurked in The Lagoon, but despite everything I think it is a good thing f95 replaced it. It lets us remember the place as a good one. I can't imagine The Lagoon would have survived the onslaught of people if it was still a main source of AVN news and discussion.

 

[TheimmortalP]

Hi everyone, how's it going? I haven't been on this site in quite a while, and I wanna explain why, and I'm wondering if anyone else has the following problems.

There's 2 main problems I have.

I usually make a topic asking for suggestions for recently completed Vanilla games a couple times a year, and I usually get some great suggestions. This year I've gotten nothing from them other than silence, sexual harassment, or people trying to trick me into looking at the most disturbing games out there. It's super disheartening.

The other problem is that my account is at risk for termination because apparantly I'm doing something wrong with my reviews. They don't explain what I'm doing wrong with the reviews, they just tell me to read the rules, which I have, and I still don't understand it. And as far as I know, you can't contact staff on this site and ask questions.