Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure MC in Now & Then can be killed.

The protagonist being killed is just a "haha, isn't that funny" false ending. It doesn't have any implications on the story.

So it's definitely not a safe-space harem. You can be with multiple LI's, but I don't believe you actually had to be.

It's still a safe-space harem because non-MC characters with any plot relevance are all LIs, which means they have plot armour against death, danger, jealousy, conflict or anything interesting at all. By definition, they all must be ready and willing to worship at the altar of MC. They all want this insipid man, the blandest tabula rasa ever, with no discernible quality. For... reasons.

And no, it doesn't matter that you don't actually gotta catch'em all. Because the LIs are all paper thin caricatures of women. They don't have lives, interests, or any existence at all outside the MC. And it's so easy to test: pick an LI, any LI - if you choose not to fuck them, do they do anything meaningfully different? Does it have plot relevance? Does the LI have any agency whatsoever?

If the answer is no, it's a safe-space harem.

 

[Cskin Games]

I just started playing Now and Then. I don't remember where I got the recommendation, probably not here since it's only been mentioned 3 times in the past. Also, it has some elements that probably disqualifies it from the list, but I still needed to bring it up, because the writing is so damn good!

We have some real characters with reasonable motivations and believable development. We have good dialogue, and we have some really well executed thriller scenes (it's a zombie apocalypse story). It would pass the Bechdel test.

On the down side is that it is quite haremy and that the MC suffers from magical dick syndrome (every woman/girl wants to fuck him). I am also not a fan of this type of renders (Honey Select?), but the creator is really doing the most of it, especially when it comes to light and shadows.

Anyway, all those negatives could easily be forgiven just for the fact that it is so good. I'd say there are several TV shows running now that are inferior.

And did I mention that it is completed?
I am two thirds in, and I am really looking forward to actually being able to binge-read this all the way to the end.

I remember that being one of the few games I completely abandoned. I played through it for a little while despite almost every part of it being not my cup of tea - and then I got to a point with some absolutely comical and nonsensical "No men allowed!" plotline which was just made absolutely no fucking sense - either in context of the story, or how it was done.

I pretty much *never* shit on a game for its writing - but the writing of that entire section was SO BAD it inspired me to drop the game immediately and never look back. It might be the only time I call out terrible writing in a game, but it was really that awful.

 

[Pgsurprise]

They don't have lives, interests, or any existence at all outside the MC. And it's so easy to test: pick an LI, any LI - if you choose not to fuck them, do they do anything meaningfully different? Does it have plot relevance? Does the LI have any agency whatsoever?

This is an excellent description. I remember the first time I read a comment like "I rejected her, why is she still in the game?", and my only thought was "Because it's a story? Do you expect her to move away?"

 

[yossa999]

This is an excellent description. I remember the first time I read a comment like "I rejected her, why is she still in the game?", and my only thought was "Because it's a story? Do you expect her to move away?"

Because most typical AVNs tend to be dating sims, you chase LI - she's all over you and you're getting her content, you reject her - she silently disappears. So if you're getting used to these types of games, is this a completely legitimate question. And that leads to the next logical questions, if the girls in the game only have the goal of being an attachment for the MC's cock, then why isn't it a harem?

 

[Jaike]

That was very nice. I've seen two endings, and that feels enough. I didn't run into anything too objectionable (though I can imagine darker endings I've avoided), so I'd be curious to know what you didn't like about it.

My opinion is that the game tries to be 2 things and the result isn't good at both.

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Terminus Reach: Sentinel 2 is being updated at an impressive pace. It's basically more of the same, so if you enjoyed the first game, you'll likely enjoy this one as well. Unfortunately, Garrett (the MC) is even more of an insufferable asshole this time around. He's really starting to get on my nerves. The dev should tone it down, and soon.

Hmm, I'm curious what you found more insufferable that time and at which point in the game it is. Garrett still makes selfish and cynical decisions, but I don't think he's worse than in the first game? He seems to have character growth if you often go for nice and nonlethal options. But maybe too little too late for you.

The sex scenes are what you'd expect, but I think Terminus Reach: Sentinel 2 has the most complex combination of plotlines and the way they're resolved and go from one to the other is the most succesful and elegant I've seen so far in an adult game. It's unusual too in that it's essentially a story about "international" relations that turns into a monster movie in the end. Probably a bad idea to shorten international relations to IR on this site...

And some potential LIs don't have plot armour.

 

[kotte]

Haha, yeah, I kind of guessed that it didn't have a large following here...
But I do object to the "paperthin characters" opinion.

 

[jufot]

My opinion is that the game tries to be 2 things and the result isn't good at both.

Fair enough, I can't find anything to disagree with your points. Sweetness doesn't really play with dubious consent or the other problematic stuff. I guess I didn't pay attention to that.

Garrett still makes selfish and cynical decisions, but I don't think he's worse than in the first game? He seems to have character growth if you often go for nice and nonlethal options. But maybe too little too late for you.

Well, that's a blast from the past! I honestly don't remember enough about it, but I think he was just a much bigger asshole to NPCs and I wasn't having his machismo bullshit

 

[Pgsurprise]

Because most typical AVNs tend to be dating sims, you chase LI - she's all over you and you're getting her content, you reject her - she silently disappears. So if you're getting used to these types of games, is this a completely legitimate question. And that leads to the next logical questions, if the girls in the game only have the goal of being an attachment for the MC's cock, then why isn't it a harem?

This will fall under the category of "to each their own", and only depicts my preferences and not a debate about your's.

I'm not exactly new to AVNs, but fairly new at participating in the forums here. But, I take the Novel part of the AVN as most important. And, generally if a character drops out of the story because the MC chooses not to persue the relationship, then the overall story is pretty week.

There are many people on this site with many different ideas of what relationships are like, and what tags should and shouldn't be. Without trying to get into it all, I'll say I've never been in a situation that would simulate any dates by the dating sim tag. I think Hillside (https://f95zone.to/threads/hillside-v0-15-1-darkblue.52621/) is what I'd call a dating sim (not tagged as such). But, many of the complaints there because it takes so long to get any lewd scenes.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy harem games. But my favorite ones still have stories I like (Talothral for example).

 

[yossa999]

This will fall under the category of "to each their own", and only depicts my preferences and not a debate about your's.

I'm not exactly new to AVNs, but fairly new at participating in the forums here. But, I take the Novel part of the AVN as most important. And, generally if a character drops out of the story because the MC chooses not to persue the relationship, then the overall story is pretty week.

There are many people on this site with many different ideas of what relationships are like, and what tags should and shouldn't be. Without trying to get into it all, I'll say I've never been in a situation that would simulate any dates by the dating sim tag. I think Hillside (https://f95zone.to/threads/hillside-v0-15-1-darkblue.52621/) is what I'd call a dating sim (not tagged as such). But, many of the complaints there because it takes so long to get any lewd scenes.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy harem games. But my favorite ones still have stories I like (Talothral for example).

Oh, I'm not debating about the preferences, I just answering a virtual question " I rejected her, why is she still in the game?"

It's just that most mainstream games use girls as a tool to fulfill the player's porn fantasies, and if the player doesn't like a certain girl, what's the point of continuing her storyline and "wasting" screen time on her. I mean it's a logic of these games, as I understand it. The girls don't have any significant roles in these games other than being the MC's sex partners.

EDIT: Haha, deleted the part that was meant for another post. Bad habit - keep multiple f95 tabs open at the same time.

 

[Pgsurprise]

The girls don't have any significant roles in these games other than being the MC's sex partners

This was the point jufot was making and I was replying to. It's not that I don't get what you're saying, but to me it usually makes a uninteresting story.

 

[boobsrcool]

Big rec for Trouble at Home

 

[Éama]

Because most typical AVNs tend to be dating sims, you chase LI - she's all over you and you're getting her content, you reject her - she silently disappears. So if you're getting used to these types of games, is this a completely legitimate question. And that leads to the next logical questions, if the girls in the game only have the goal of being an attachment for the MC's cock, then why isn't it a harem?

I'm not really arguing with you here, I just want to add my two cents. In my opinion every AVN - be it a good or a badly written one - is starting out as a dating sim unless you have a fixed LI from the get go. It's the transition from the dating sim to the relationship sim where a lot of developers show a lack of imagination or resources.
For one, I think the actual relationships with its ups and downs is fairly uncharted territory for a lot of developers. It's the most interesting part in real life, so why would this be any different in a visual novel? Show us how relationships evolve from pure sexual desire to struggling through crisis and developing true love, merge those crisis with the overall plot to reach climax. And show us how former LIs turn into friends or foes with their own motivations, their own feelings about the act of being sidelined or being chosen. Let them interconnect and share thoughts and feelings with each other. And maybe, if you can stomach it, let them find love or tragic of their own.

Removing an established character without repercussion is essentially invalidating the dating sim and it wastes your own talent. You've invested so many hours to create this character, to fill it with believable personality and visuals and then you throw them away for the majority of your fans? That can't feel satisfying.

 

[Jaike]

I'm not really arguing with you here, I just want to add my two cents. In my opinion every AVN - be it a good or a badly written one - is starting out as a dating sim unless you have a fixed LI from the get go. It's the transition from the dating sim to the relationship sim where a lot of developers show a lack of imagination or resources.
For one, I think the actual relationships with its ups and downs is fairly uncharted territory for a lot of developers. It's the most interesting part in real life, so why would this be any different in a visual novel? Show us how relationships evolve from pure sexual desire to struggling through crisis and developing true love, merge those crisis with the overall plot to reach climax. And show us how former LIs turn into friends or foes with their own motivations, their own feelings about the act of being sidelined or being chosen. Let them interconnect and share thoughts and feelings with each other. And maybe, if you can stomach it, let them find love or tragic of their own.

Removing an established character without repercussion is essentially invalidating the dating sim and it wastes your own talent. You've invested so many hours to create this character, to fill it with believable personality and visuals and then you throw them away for the majority of your fans? That can't feel satisfying.

That's a valid ambition and it's true that's pretty uncharted territory. But it's really ambitious and adds a lot of scope too. Many devs are happy to complete the main plot and give endings to whatever character paths there are. There's that wisdom among devs, the more room you give to player choice, the less room you leave to story quality. Or development time grows like a forest fire. Adding non-LI arcs to former (potential?) LIs' stories consumes a lot of time and resources, probably with terrible returns if someone monetises it. I don't think limiting the scope that way invalidates the dating sim or wastes a dev's talent. Of course, some ways like limiting the number of potential LIs to something managable are in theory better ways of limiting scope than others. So I think in the end the decision to flesh out "rejection arcs" like that is subjective and either choice is a valid creative decision.

 

[Beduin123]

IMHO, just give me a well written kinetic novel with good graphics and fuck all the choices.
I'm pretty OK with most of kinks except for gay / trans and futa, if the story behind is good and feasible.

 

[Pgsurprise]

For one, I think the actual relationships with its ups and downs is fairly uncharted territory for a lot of developers. It's the most interesting part in real life, so why would this be any different in a visual novel?

I think I've seen a few over the years done well, with the tension built from external forces, but don't ask me to remember the names. I am about 15 years behind, but Tlaero had excellent characters and situations affecting relationships. But, most of the time, it is all pretty jouvinile stuff like "I forgot to call and LI hasn't returned my texts for 3 days. Maybe I should send flowers", and all gets resolved.

Another along the same lines, is when a character that severely wronged the MC (usually backstory or the prologue) and your first choice is to forgive or not. If you don't forgive immediately, the character is locked out. Like, you don't think MC might need a minute, or a few interactions to work it out?

 

[raynarnab]

Anyone try Taru's infernal pledge? I am surprised by how much I am enjoying it.

 

[Tlaero]

I am about 15 years behind, but Tlaero had excellent characters and situations affecting relationships.

Thanks! I've written a lot of games in the last 15 years, so if you're interested in getting back into them, you have plenty to choose from. Links to all of them are listed here:

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Tlaero

 

[jufot]

Price of Power's 25th chapter is

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! This concludes the main plot, which will be followed by 5 chapters of epilogue. I've shared my thoughts here.

 

[Pgsurprise]

Thanks! I've written a lot of games in the last 15 years, so if you're interested in getting back into them, you have plenty to choose from. Links to all of them are listed here:

You must be registered to see the links

Tlaero

Thanks, that's just a lot of time and will take me a while.

 

[Éama]

That's a valid ambition and it's true that's pretty uncharted territory. But it's really ambitious and adds a lot of scope too. Many devs are happy to complete the main plot and give endings to whatever character paths there are. There's that wisdom among devs, the more room you give to player choice, the less room you leave to story quality. Or development time grows like a forest fire. Adding non-LI arcs to former (potential?) LIs' stories consumes a lot of time and resources, probably with terrible returns if someone monetises it. I don't think limiting the scope that way invalidates the dating sim or wastes a dev's talent. Of course, some ways like limiting the number of potential LIs to something managable are in theory better ways of limiting scope than others. So I think in the end the decision to flesh out "rejection arcs" like that is subjective and either choice is a valid creative decision.

I think it does to a point. When you create a character that has become a good (virtual) friend of mine and you take it away from me because I don't want to have sex, you rob me of a great deal of the human experience. Technically harem games circumvent this, but more by accident than virtue. I'm not really looking to have sex with every human I adore. So it's pretty much railroading me into behaving in ways I would never behave. But at least a harem game recognizes my desire to still spend time together. It's kind of a dysfunctional relationship when everything you have left is sex, but anyways.

The level of complexity is still in your hands. You decide how deep relationships go, how closely they are tied to overall plot points. In my opinion it is a good idea to tie them very closely. I notice a lot of developers that struggle to scale the amount of slice of life elements and there is a risk of derailing the arc of suspense this way...
The relationship between Vi and Jinx in Arcane is extremely complex without any choices whatsoever. But even that show plays with the idea of "what could have been" plenty of times. Because it is just such an alluring idea. And as a developer of a visual novel you can actually make it a reality. I'd like to see that as a strength of the art and not a burden. But sure, you have to draw a scope line somewhere.