Recommending Story-first games

[Dragon59]

Ah, but that would defeat the point of being a eunuch. I wanted to see an MC surrounded by a literal harem of women, but sexually frustrated due to his lack of penile ability

Well, a eunuch can get an erection, but only by direct stimulation (there was a question about Game of Thrones). It would also take longer than with a mad who still has testes. A far cry from the standard porn trope where the sight of a little skin leads to a full erection instantly.

I'd just like to see devs create internally consistent characters -- that is, characters that are true to themselves -- before they attempt anything more ambitious like believable poly relationships.

A person's nature can change over time, of course... but it's generally a gradual evolution, rather than in the form of an abrupt, massive shift. One of the problems with this genre of games is that jarring character shifts are so common... which destroys the credibility of the narrative. It's the equivalent in old blue movies of the 'nurse' character walking on to the ward and suddenly peeling off her clothes because the male protagonist/patient is 'hot' and 'it's hot in here.'

This was one of my biggest challenges for Alyssa and Emil. I didn't want it to be cheating to poly. I also didn't want to have the "marriage broken--add more people" trap that I have seen in real life. I chose to say that during the lockdown, they didn't get bored with each other, but they became painfully aware that they each had interests and such that the other didn't share. I decided to go with the realization that it's often too optimistic to expect one's partner to meet them on every level.

Next, I need to have a realistic ramp-up, where they test their boundaries and find they're OK and test some more. I'll definitely include something I've experienced--during the dating phase, one's partner often comes home with a LOT of sexual energy. It can be quite fun.

Likewise, even with the poly couple, Beth and Carrie, I want them to be different. Beth will be more demisexual, not quick to sexual arousal for someone they've just met. I'll even have one or more asexuals--people who are not celibate, but almost never get visually stimulated.

I know that having demisexuals and asexuals in an AVN will be frustrating for some, but I want a good story with good diversity.

Now that I think about it, I think I should have the initial couple have a few failures. Ones that help them to bond rather than tearing them apart.

That's what makes characters like Charlotte from _Hillside_ or Elsa from _CC_ so unusual: they have clearly defined personalities and always make choices that are consistent with them. When their behavior deviates slightly from their essential characters, the dev has shown very clearly and logically _why_ they have made that choice and how it fits their nature. Nothing comes out of the blue... it feels organic and real.

Yes, and it gives the female characters a level of agency by having them make such decisions based upon their background and personality.

That is true, don't think that is a very common demand however.

True--very vocal though.

Okay, that sounds hardcore, even for 24/7.

It seems to work for them. I remember my second wife asked to open up our marriage to meet a guy she'd met online. He was her Dom for a time, but I had to exercise a veto because he was lying to her and she couldn't break it off on her own. Her second Dom was looking for a 24/7 no safewords Dom/sub relationship. Definitely worrisome to me.

So you slept with four people in one bed? I believe that it was awkward. But it does sound cute. Maybe an idea for your game?

Yup, we had a California King and a twin bed pushed together. Still, with four of us, no room to roll over. I'll definitely have a four-in-a-bed scene.

Or even:

Sounds like the eunuch found a Roman votive figurine of Priapus instead of a genie in a bottle.

Sounds about right.

Now that sounds extremely masochist. I'm sure that's even rare in extreme femdom games if you don't count sissification and feminisation.

A very niche market...

Yes, I think a mostly consistent personality is important. In WVM there is this mechanism that whenever an LI joins the harem, any tension and character that existed previously just evaporates.

I like how in Tales of the Undending Void, you can be involved with multiple characters, but you have to still be aware of their feelings of jealousy if you do too much with one LI. More like spinning plates than juggling chainsaws.

The MC better be totally loaded. What better way than child support to ensure a steady income from a 'dependable' and so reliable bloke, right?

That's one thing that Killer7 establishes in his games.

It's a shame, LI rivalry and LIs demanding things in return for tolerating rivals could at least be something that contributes some tension to a story, even if the setting... is lacking in plausibility. Instead it's pure porn waffle and LIs getting led by the nose.

Thanks for the reminder. I will definitely deal with "poly-saturation," that point where one can no longer add more relationships without having the existing ones suffer. Or just being spread so thinly that one doesn't have time for oneself.

 

[jufot]

Well, a eunuch can get an erection, but only by direct stimulation (there was a question about Game of Thrones). It would also take longer than with a mad who still has testes. A far cry from the standard porn trope where the sight of a little skin leads to a full erection instantly.

Hmm, that's news to me. Perhaps there are different kinds/levels of castration? I'm aware of the difference between psychogenic erections (triggered via the spinal cord by sexual thoughts or audiovisual stimuli) and reflexogenic ones (triggered via direct physical stimuli to the penis). I know that spinal cord injuries and mental health problems can kill the former, and cardiovascular issues can kill the latter. I always assumed castration was basically destructive and erections of both kinds were physically impossible.

I know that having demisexuals and asexuals in an AVN will be frustrating for some, but I want a good story with good diversity.

Yes please, do that

 

[Dragon59]

That should be Callisto above, not Tales of the Unending Void. Easy to get the two confused at times.

I was going to edit, but the server problems are preventing me.

That all sounds very interesting. Looking forward to it!

Thank you. I took a break in coding and rendering to get all the characters (with custom morphs--I don't want to depend on stock assets) I need for the first release. Working on choosing models for the Alyssa and Emil's two teens. Then Render City again!

Let's just say if someone were to start a Patreon to develop that, I'd definitely pitch in

I think there are enough assets on the market to tell an Ottoman tale. I would help too.

Now there is another game idea! MC starts with sleeping around with a bunch of women, accidentally impregnating them. 9 months later they all come rightfully seeking child support. The player then has to keep juggling jobs to make sure his "family" is provided for. Of course, all the women hate him for his lechery, so they aren't willing to fuck him either

I love it! If we can have such parodies as Harem Highlander (NTR), and Doc5252's two loli incest games (I don't know if HE considers it parody, but it also makes me think of "What if John Waters made an AVN?"*), why not a Harem game that injects painful reality into it? I'd support the project on principle.

*That could be an amusing game. Come up with what kind of AVN various directors would come up with.
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Hmm, that's news to me. Perhaps there are different kinds/levels of castration? I'm aware of the difference between psychogenic erections (triggered via the spinal cord by sexual thoughts or audiovisual stimuli) and reflexogenic ones (triggered via direct physical stimuli to the penis). I know that spinal cord injuries and mental health problems can kill the former, and cardiovascular issues can kill the latter. I always assumed castration was basically destructive and erections of both kinds were physically impossible.


Yes please, do that

Interesting you should bring up both of those points.
I do plan on having a character who is a sex worker. My former nesting partner, as part of learning about the Ace community learned that a significant number of Ace individuals go into sex work. Interesting link because the one sex worker scene I have planned is either for someone who has such injuries (much like the movie, The Surrogate), or for someone who just needs physical touch (perhaps because of their neurodiversity, it is hard to connect with others).

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

I'll drop a few cents as well and add Elvensang,it has a nice story,give it a try if you are interested.

 

[Dragon59]

[/QUOTE]

I'll drop a few cents as well and add Elvensang,it has a nice story,give it a try if you are interested.

I have it in my queue of games to try. I couldn't resist that butt in the signature ad.

 

[Raife]

I'll drop a few cents as well and add Elvensang,it has a nice story,give it a try if you are interested.

Like Dragon, _Elvensang_ is in my quene of games to check out. I love low fantasy settings -- although they are rarely done well in genre fiction, let alone in adult games. The idea of elves as an oppressed class is also worth exploring... although it has been done before, including in games like _Dragon Age_.

Is there much playtime yet in _Elvensang_, Awesome? I've been allowing it to simmer and develop a bit before giving it a taste...

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

Like Dragon, _Elvensang_ is in my quene of games to check out. I love low fantasy settings -- although they are rarely done well in genre fiction, let alone in adult games. The idea of elves as an oppressed class is also worth exploring... although it has been done before, including in games like _Dragon Age_.

Is there much playtime yet in _Elvensang_, Awesome? I've been allowing it to simmer and develop a bit before giving it a taste...

It has a lot of content for a 0.3 release. I personally got a lot of the witcher vibes regarding the portrayal of the elves,I think it's really nicely done.

 

[Jaike]

So I ended up trying this game, but it doesn't seem like my cup of tea. MC is a total asshole (especially with that "you should thank me for literally burning your house and your parents, and making you my slave" scene) and the only alternative is being a doormat. I didn't see any choices for being a well-adjusted human being

Oh whoops, I totally forgot about that scene! Yes, the MC is not a nice guy and 100% a feudal elitist. He can be less sociopathic in a later encounter with the servant girl. I don't think his explanation then is super convincing, it is reminiscent of the Nuremberg defence I think, but he comes more off like a human being.

But you would have to play through a little more of it to get a sense of the omnipresence of intrigue in the game. From memory, I'm quite sure that noncon is avoidable.

Now there is another game idea! MC starts with sleeping around with a bunch of women, accidentally impregnating them. 9 months later they all come rightfully seeking child support. The player then has to keep juggling jobs to make sure his "family" is provided for. Of course, all the women hate him for his lechery, so they aren't willing to fuck him either

Hm, that sounds like findom. Between that and the forced castration talk earlier, maybe you should try a few femdom games. Karlsson's Gambit may be a nice one for starters.

It seems to work for them. I remember my second wife asked to open up our marriage to meet a guy she'd met online. He was her Dom for a time, but I had to exercise a veto because he was lying to her and she couldn't break it off on her own. Her second Dom was looking for a 24/7 no safewords Dom/sub relationship. Definitely worrisome to me.

That second dom sounds like a sociopath in need of a restraining order. But to be frank that "she couldn't break it off on her own" with the first one seems also worrisome to me.

Thanks for the reminder. I will definitely deal with "poly-saturation," that point where one can no longer add more relationships without having the existing ones suffer. Or just being spread so thinly that one doesn't have time for oneself.

Huh? The sound of that is suspiciously similar to WVM and Luke's Way.

 

[jufot]

I've spent pretty much the entire day playing through Intertwined's latest chapter. Honestly, it's a work of art. Superb writing, and the possible variations of each scene due to different character interactions is immense. I have four saves now (Erynn, Alexis, Layla, Elena) and I'm quite sure there is at least 20% of the chapter I haven't seen. Given the complexity, I was surprised how few bugs there were, and Nyx quickly fixed them throughout the day.

One thing to note is that I never dated more than one LI per save, so all inter-LI conflicts were born out of family (e.g Alexis and Layla) or friendship (e.g Alexis and Erynn), never cheating. That definitely limits which scenes I could get.

Anyway, I know there are a few Intertwined fans here, so I'm curious what y'all think

 

[jufot]

Between that and the forced castration talk earlier, maybe you should try a few femdom games. Karlsson's Gambit may be a nice one for starters.

I'm quite intrigued by femdom but unfortunately, it (and maledom) is almost always presented in a pseudo-slavery/abusive kind of way, which turns me off. The only VN I know of with consensual, mutually agreed, enthusiastic femdom is Nothing is Forever, which has an excellent femdom scene

 

[Raife]

I'm quite intrigued by femdom but unfortunately, it (and maledom) is almost always presented in a pseudo-slavery/abusive kind of way, which turns me off. The only VN I know of with consensual, mutually agreed, enthusiastic femdom is Nothing is Forever, which has an excellent femdom scene

_Nothing is Forever_ is also the only game I know that has genuinely erotic angry-furious/unacknowledged love sex.

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I'm just a bit worried that there's too much choice/variety in that game to do everything so well, or devote enough time to developing each character.

I'll have to get back into _Intertwined_. I note you've focussed on the relationships I enjoy as well, as opposed to the stepsisters subplot, which is an unnecessary distraction.

 

[Nyravrod]

Yes, I think a mostly consistent personality is important. In WVM there is this mechanism that whenever an LI joins the harem, any tension and character that existed previously just evaporates.

I mean WVM is pretty much the definition of harem with maximum suspention of disbelief, get everyone, never any conflict so many LIs that there is barely any time to establish let alone grow any form of character. It's a shame because from the few character arcs present there is proof that the dev has the potential to write a solid story but the premise is a huge blocker for that.

The weather, not so much. Life in general, quite a bit. I lived in Den Haag for several years and I miss it every day. It's such a contrast to London's hustle and bustle.

I know what you mean, London is definitely hectic, I'm lucky to be able to afford a place in a more relaxed area and not have to commute but it's getting harder and harder to justify to myself staying in London. Especially with the current state of the concerts and musicals which where a large part of why I was happy to stay... I do enjoy London but I do miss a smaller more human scale place at times.

I like how in Calisto, you can be involved with multiple characters, but you have to still be aware of their feelings of jealousy if you do too much with one LI. More like spinning plates than juggling chainsaws.

Yes I mentioned in a previous message here that I thought that system was interesting. Shame that the only conflicts that arise are inconsequentials, I would have loved to have some real impact when one of the LIs goes down too low. Someone leaving or maybe even betrayals or mutiny would be an exiting way to make the player more tense and ensuring that this really feels like a "precarious harem".

It has a lot of content for a 0.3 release. I personally got a lot of the witcher vibes regarding the portrayal of the elves,I think it's really nicely done.

Ohhh I might have to try it out then, this does sound interesting ^^

One thing to note is that I never dated more than one LI per save, so all inter-LI conflicts were born out of family (e.g Alexis and Layla) or friendship (e.g Alexis and Erynn), never cheating. That definitely limits which scenes I could get.

I would love to hear the takes on this too. The main reason I have not yet tried it is that I would play it like you most likely as I can't stand to play any form of cheating and I was afraid this would be fairly limitting in terms of content from what I read about the game.

I'm quite intrigued by femdom but unfortunately, it (and maledom) is almost always presented in a pseudo-slavery/abusive kind of way, which turns me off.

Yes absolutely, so many games are presenting femdom and maledom in this abusive way. It is really off putting and a big shame. I want to see more stories like Sunstone. Show the state of mind of the characters leading up the act, how important and bonding aftercare can be. Delve into the characters motivation and have characters explain what draws them to it etc...

 

[Jaike]

Yes absolutely, so many games are presenting femdom and maledom in this abusive way. It is really off putting and a big shame. I want to see more stories like Sunstone. Show the state of mind of the characters leading up the act, how important and bonding aftercare can be. Delve into the characters motivation and have characters explain what draws them to it etc...

The maledom in Defending Lydia Collier is both entirely consensual and romantic, this VN is also in the OP. There is also a lot of consensual lezdom in A Drow's Life (emphatically not something that should be in the OP) but some of it isn't, nothing gorey happens in that game anyway. Maybe also Say It Again.

 

[Nyravrod]

The maledom in Defending Lydia Collier is both entirely consensual and romantic, this VN is also in the OP. There is also a lot of consensual lezdom in A Drow's Life (emphatically not something that should be in the OP) but some of it isn't, nothing gorey happens in that game anyway. Maybe also Say It Again.

Defending Lydia Collier is already on my list to play so I will definitely bump it up the list and give it a shot.
Yeah I don't think A Drow's Life will be my cup of tea, I need some story to get me going ^^

Say It Again I was initially put off by the art style, but I might try it at one point if I get past that.

 

[jufot]

I know what you mean, London is definitely hectic, I'm lucky to be able to afford a place in a more relaxed area and not have to commute but it's getting harder and harder to justify to myself staying in London. Especially with the current state of the concerts and musicals which where a large part of why I was happy to stay... I do enjoy London but I do miss a smaller more human scale place at times.

Oh, hey another Londoner! Couldn't agree more to be honest. Post-covid, my company has switched to permanent WFH and with the sad state of our social lives, sometimes I feel like selling everything and moving up north, perhaps to the Lake District or somewhere equally idyllic. That said, I still enjoy the city and my wife would never agree to moving, so I'm just amusing myself

I would love to hear the takes on this too. The main reason I have not yet tried it is that I would play it like you most likely as I can't stand to play any form of cheating and I was afraid this would be fairly limitting in terms of content from what I read about the game.

Intertwined is one of those incredibly rare games where you can still develop deep, meaningful friendships with LIs you don't choose to pursue, so you still get to experience everything without cheating. I strongly recommend it

Maybe also Say It Again.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Say It Again. It's very cute, but lacks BDSM etiquette, which can be explained by the relative inexperience and horniness of the characters, so I'm hopeful that can be rectified in future chapters.

 

[Raife]

It has a lot of content for a 0.3 release. I personally got a lot of the witcher vibes regarding the portrayal of the elves,I think it's really nicely done.

The game struck me as very promising -- thanks, Awesome! I'm a bit dismayed that the dev has been browbeaten into an anti-NTR declaration in the OP... but the writing is sound and the diverse cast of characters is well-developed.

The thing I enjoyed most, though, was the moral ambiguity, the lack of simple good/bad choices (sometimes, behaving like a dick is necessary when dealing with certain difficult characters, but sometimes it's just dickish) and the sense of agency this gives the player.

It's early days, but I might throw a couple of bucks at the dev. This is definitely a story-first game...

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

The game struck me as very promising -- thanks, Awesome! I'm a bit dismayed that the dev has been browbeaten into an anti-NTR declaration in the OP... but the writing is sound and the diverse cast of characters is well-developed.

The thing I enjoyed most, though, was the moral ambiguity, the lack of simple good/bad choices (sometimes, behaving like a dick is necessary when dealing with certain difficult characters, but sometimes it's just dickish) and the sense of agency this gives the player.

It's early days, but I might throw a couple of bucks at the dev. This is definitely a story-first game...

To be fair he said that he can't spare the time to make an NTR path. Moral ambiguity is certainly the best part.I certainly hope we will have an option to be a ruthless mc. Not enough games out there that lets you be a bad guy,and if they do,it's usually some mind control crap.

 

[jufot]

I was discussing with a friend how I don't like incest in VNs. Not just because of the general ickiness but also because it's damn near impossible to write a realistic, grounded incest story. We talked about "good" depictions of incest in all sorts of media, not just VNs, and the only thing I could think of was the 1991 film

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, starring Clive Owen, Saskia Reeves and Alan Rickman. Owen and Reeves being siblings, and Rickman her husband. I don't want to spoil anything, and if anyone has seen it, I'd like to know what you think of it. I could see that story working in a kinetic novel format, but I don't imagine it would attract many fans due to its not-happily-ever-after ending.

For my money, any good depiction must include real anxiety about getting caught, arrested, imprisoned and shunned. Not to mention internal conflict about doing something despite knowing it to be so wrong.

 

[Raife]

I was discussing with a friend how I don't like incest in VNs. Not just because of the general ickiness but also because it's damn near impossible to write a realistic, grounded incest story. We talked about "good" depictions of incest in all sorts of media, not just VNs, and the only thing I could think of was the 1991 film

You must be registered to see the links

, starring Clive Owen, Saskia Reeves and Alan Rickman. Owen and Reeves being siblings, and Rickman her husband. I don't want to spoil anything, and if anyone has seen it, I'd like to know what you think of it. I could see that story working in a kinetic novel format, but I don't imagine it would attract many fans due to its not-happily-ever-after ending.

For my money, any good depiction must include real anxiety about getting caught, arrested, imprisoned and shunned. Not to mention internal conflict about doing something despite knowing it to be so wrong.

You won't be surprised to hear that I agree.

Incest is a near-universal human taboo, across cultures (one can find historical exceptions, but they are extremely unusual e.g. the Ptolemaic Kingdom); it destroys the credibility of a narrative if it is just introduced without any deep, special treatment in the plot -- which, needless to say, is vanishingly rare in these games.

It tends to nuke the credibility of a story even more effectively than a poorly established poly (or 'harem' to use the lousy F95 tag). That doesn't mean that a really good incest narrative, with believable characters and situations, couldn't be created... I just haven't seen it done well.

There are games with incest that can be played without it... some of them are rather good if played that way, as the incest is usually unnecessary to the plot -- or entirely extraneous. In those cases, I regard it as a 'porn commerce' consideration: it's an extremely popular fetish (for reasons I cannot fathom) that tends to be inimical to good story-driven adult games.

There are realistic, grounded depictions of incest in literature and film, jufot -- it's just that they fall into the horrific/tragic categories of human experience... like in _Chinatown_.

 

[Dragon59]

That second dom sounds like a sociopath in need of a restraining order. But to be frank that "she couldn't break it off on her own" with the first one seems also worrisome to me.

Fortunately, she became enamored with another and her interest in the second Dom wained. Yes, in retrospect, she did seem to have a rather unhealthy relationship with non-monogamy. I presume she's monogamous with her current husband in England.

Huh? The sound of that is suspiciously similar to WVM and Luke's Way.

It's definitely something that happens in poly circles and varies from person to person. I think three would be my limit unless there were some "we'll get together when we're each in town" level relationships. (little to no upkeep).

I've barely touched WVM and have never heard of Luke's Way.