Recommending Story-first games

[Nyravrod]

I was discussing with a friend how I don't like incest in VNs. Not just because of the general ickiness but also because it's damn near impossible to write a realistic, grounded incest story.

...

For my money, any good depiction must include real anxiety about getting caught, arrested, imprisoned and shunned. Not to mention internal conflict about doing something despite knowing it to be so wrong.

I agree a realistic and grounded incest story is pretty hard to write and most VNs including incest make absolutely no effort towards it. As you mention Raife:

it destroys the credibility of a narrative if it is just introduced without any deep, special treatment in the plot -- which, needless to say, is vanishingly rare in these games.

I have played one VN that made a serious attempt at it and was in my opinion farily successfull. If you have not yet played Haley's Story I think it is worth a try. I have some issues with the story but the incest part is not one of them. You can really feel the tension and internal conflict of the characters. There are a few very touching scenes that showcase the struggle. I particularly remember a scene where Haley is pushing the limit at night and then catches herself and kisses the MC's back saying sorry. You could really feel her struggle and the fact that she believes she is ruining the MC's life.

The different path are interesting (as long as you don't play like a horndog idiot), and I especially found interesting the fact that depending on how you play it you can have some real tension with the family. Either use another relationship to shield the fact that you are together or face the disgust of your father as he figures it out.

It doesn't have a tragic ending but overall it is definitely a decent story and in my opinion a good attempt at an incest story done right.

Incest is a near-universal human taboo, across cultures (one can find historical exceptions, but they are extremely unusual e.g. the Ptolemaic Kingdom); it destroys the credibility of a narrative if it is just introduced without any deep, special treatment in the plot -- which, needless to say, is vanishingly rare in these games.

For my money, any good depiction must include real anxiety about getting caught, arrested, imprisoned and shunned. Not to mention internal conflict about doing something despite knowing it to be so wrong.

Personally the only issue I have with Incest is if there are power dynamics at play, dependance or age etc... If it's between consenting adults honestly.... live and let live. I am very much of the mind of love is love and let people be if no one is hurt.

Strangely enough France (country where I grew up) is one of the few countries where it is legal between consenting adults and only forbidden when minors or power dynamics are at play. I never encountered incest, it was never discussed in my upbringing and only learned that fact recently yet my personal opinion is the same. I don't know if it is just a coincidence or some very strange conditional bias......

We talked about "good" depictions of incest in all sorts of media, not just VNs, and the only thing I could think of was the 1991 film

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, starring Clive Owen, Saskia Reeves and Alan Rickman. Owen and Reeves being siblings, and Rickman her husband. I don't want to spoil anything, and if anyone has seen it, I'd like to know what you think of it. I could see that story working in a kinetic novel format, but I don't imagine it would attract many fans due to its not-happily-ever-after ending.

Have not seen that movie so can't add much but I for one would not mind some less than happy endings in some VNs. Sometime a story calls for a dramatic and sad ending and the impact of the narative is only stronger for it. But as you mention most fans would probably be up in arms at the thought.

 

[jufot]

It doesn't have a tragic ending but overall it is definitely a decent story and in my opinion a good attempt at an incest story done right.

Yes, Haley's Story is absolutely one of the better ones. Their family's implicit acceptance of the situation towards the end is not handled very well, but it's still much better than most.

Personally the only issue I have with Incest is if there are power dynamics at play, dependance or age etc... If it's between consenting adults honestly.... live and let live. I am very much of the mind of love is love and let people be if no one is hurt.

Agreed. My one rule on legislating sex is "what happens behind closed doors between consenting adults is no business of the state." Naturally, that covers adult incest as well. I still personally find it a bit icky, but I wouldn't treat anyone differently for it.

 

[Raife]

Sometime a story calls for a dramatic and sad ending and the impact of the narative is only stronger for it. But as you mention most fans would probably be up in arms at the thought.

I agree. Even in a story with a mostly happy denouement, incidents of pain or sorrow usually make the narrative far more compelling. I've perhaps overpraised, _Hillside_ recently, but this is one of the things it does best: no major choice is unambiguously 'good' or 'bad' and decisions that are very positive for some characters/LIs make others miserable. There's a mixture of light and shade.

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Most players seem to get involved in these games as an escape, and react poorly to narratives with too much misery or darkness in them... but my favourite games have stories tinged with a bit of sorrow. It makes them more real and believable...

 

[ShamanLab]

I just checked out The J-Files Episode 1: The Penny Conspiracy.

Woow... it's betten then "Her Android Tears". So many cool visuals. Complicated story.
Dozens of intersting DAZ models. Very visual reach and intense experience.

upd. I feel like this is the best L8ERALgames story. Here he investing much more times and effort in characters developement then in his other games.

 

[moskyx]

New Tlaero's game is out: Chasing Beth, another story set in the Elsaverse. Basically a kinetic novel but quite interesting narrative within that setting's boundaries

 

[Jaike]

Missed the incest discussion. I think you people would totally hate this Disney blockbuster grossing hundreds of millions... But there actually is a topic where some people talk about their experiences. And if you consider sex between cousins incestuous, there have been many cultures that valued that kind of endogamy.

Thanks for the recommendations, ShamanLab and moskyx. Those are great devs.

In Haley's Story I really disliked the way that the ending with Sandra was done. It's also another case of the MC cheating his way to non-monogamy.

Yeah I don't think A Drow's Life will be my cup of tea, I need some story to get me going ^^

I'll clarify that it's not that it doesn't have a story, but it's a quite typical fantasy story of stopping an evil secret society that is out to destroy the world and there are plenty of tropes from porn logic. Also, while a lot of the action in A Drow's Life is consensual, now that I think of it some of it does veer to dubcon. But it never gets very dark.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Say It Again. It's very cute, but lacks BDSM etiquette, which can be explained by the relative inexperience and horniness of the characters, so I'm hopeful that can be rectified in future chapters.

That explanation could also work for the characters in A Drow's Life, although I really doubt they'll wisen up.

Oh, and I saw your post in the Eternum topic. Maybe you should try Life/Making a Mark, you could be the first person to like the test in that game. Coincidentally it is an incest game without a harem with an unusual MC where the taboos around incest get some attention. But I don't recall it as particularly story-driven.

 

[jufot]

And if you consider sex between cousins incestuous, there have been many cultures that valued that kind of endogamy.

I don't think that counts as incest. I've certainly never lived anywhere where it's illegal. Even Patreon seems fine with that - Bare Witness has an LI who is explicitly MC's cousin, and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Oh, and I saw your post in the Eternum topic. Maybe you should try Life/Making a Mark, you could be the first person to like the test in that game. Coincidentally it is an incest game without a harem with an unusual MC where the taboos around incest get some attention. But I don't recall it as particularly story-driven.

Yeah, that scene in Eternum was a nice surprise because I'm used to "tech" in media being almost completely bullshit As for Making a Mark, I took a quick look at its page and that FAQ doesn't inspire confidence I'll still give it a shot, though.

 

[Zodiark69]

I aint reading through 19 pages, so if someone already said it, meh.

The Last Sovereign.

 

[raynarnab]

I will agree with the The Last Sovereign. The prologue will make you feel like its a generic harem collecting game. But very quickly you will realize the game will start mocking common ropes found in adult games. In terms of world building and fantasy, the story will suck you in. You will feel empowered by the strategic decisions like economics, military & politics so that you can build your army to defeat what is existential threat to humanity.

The criteria that it might fail for you, would be that there is a Harem involved. However the sex scenes are actually well written and every character grows to have their own motivation to join it.

Also thank you for starting this thread. I am noting down some of the great games suggested. I am very much aligned with you in seeking games that really tell a story first.

 

[jufot]

Is anyone else playing Chasing Sunsets? I just finished chapter 4 and my impression of the game continued to weaken. The previous episode already wasn't that great, and with this new chapter, the story was further sidelined and porn-logic took over, dominating everything. I can't elaborate without spoilers, so let's just say I'm very disappointed and I really don't like the direction we're heading

 

[Raife]

Is anyone else playing Chasing Sunsets? I just finished chapter 4 and my impression of the game continued to weaken. The previous episode already wasn't that great, and with this new chapter, the story was further sidelined and porn-logic took over, dominating everything. I can't elaborate without spoilers, so let's just say I'm very disappointed and I really don't like the direction we're heading

I'm probably less disappointed than you are, jufot, simply because I never rated CS very highly.

The game is well produced and the characters (particularly the LIs) look great... but he plot is a mess, the characters are teeth-grindingly immature (especially the MC and his sister) and the dev is prone to clunky exposition. I mean... Chapter 1 begins with an endless, totally unrealistic, expository monologue with a supposed family friend/bartender whom the MC hasn't seen for years. It involves both tedious details and wild oversharing, in a manner that completely killed any sense of realism almost immediately.

As you say, the game's tendency towards porn logic has also gotten worse with each subsequent chapter:

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The thing I hate the most, though...

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And yet... I'm definitely enjoying the game! CS is like one of the 'so-bad-its-good' Bond films (e.g. _Moonraker_) which is so absurd and OTT that laughing at the plot becomes part of the appeal.

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[jufot]

And yet... I'm definitely enjoying the game! CS is like one of the 'so-bad-its-good' Bond films

Exactly! I mean, it's really turning into a train wreck with the whole "the woman you want to fuck and thought was your aunt is actually a clone (?) of your mother" thing, and yet I can't look away

Honestly, the problems are too many to mention. Just off the top of my had, some overlapping with your comment:

- MC has the emotional maturity of a misshapen potato.
- No one, literally no one, is bothered by MC and Jaye's semi-incentious attraction. They all think it's hot.
- That whole ridiculous storyline at the cabin with MC's surrogate family.
- Mallory going from total sexual repression to "let me get naked and blow you on this public beach" in literally 24 hours.
- MC's FWB/stalker just casually moving into his apartment with no reaction from MC.
- Everyone somehow loving the funny little "rape van". It's like a 13-year-old wrote it.

I'm probably less disappointed than you are, jufot, simply because I never rated CS very highly.

Yeah, you were definitely right I've taken it off the OP.

 

[Raife]

Exactly! I mean, it's really turning into a train wreck with the whole "the woman you want to fuck and thought was your aunt is actually a clone (?) of your mother" thing, and yet I can't look away

Yeah, you were definitely right I've taken it off the OP.

Noooo! Keep it up there, but stick it in a special 'golden raspberry' category or something, for really dedicated, cheesy, unintentionally amusing writing. This shit is enjoyable, albeit for all the wrong reasons.

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[jufot]

Patreon incest-rules subversion [...]

I never thought about that! It's hilarious to imagine, though

I'm definitely on team Mallory

Honestly, I'm on team Jaye & Mallory! As in, the two of them, minus the MC. They can just dump him on one of the islands or something

I have very little hope that the dev will ultimately force us to choose between the two main LIs

Oh yeah, this game has fan service written all over it. Expect an "optional harem ending for our supporters" at the last minute.

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

I recommend you "the anomalous Dr. Vibes". The game is basically about a dude, who was meant to be kidnapped, but is transported into a parallel world before this happens. Aim of the game is to go against that person, who tried to kidnap you and have a good time meanwhile. I know you are not looking for cheap porn tropes and this game uses them heavily. But the dev seems to be a 5-star chef, who takes this ingredients, puts them into a pan and produces a tasty meal out of it. I have really rarely seen some dev, who handles porn with so much care than this. He uses porn tropes quite consciously, puts his own ideas up on it and creates something totally new, that makes you laughing while fapping.

 

[jufot]

I recently played Divergence: Beyond the Singularity. It's very good, but not as a porn game. I'll explain.

At it's core, it's a futuristic corporate espionage / murder mystery about transhumanism. There is no MC - rather it's a series of events from several POVs. That's different from multiple protagonist, in the sense that these are people with interconnected lives, even if they're not aware of it, but none are meant to be the player's proxy. It's quite similar to reading a novel like The Expanse. 14 chapters in, I'm completely invested in the story.

The game is designed to be an immersive experience, with very little of the usual RenPy trappings present. Even the settings menu is limited to volume and full screen. I would've expected that to be annoying, but it wasn't - the developer clearly knows what he's doing. Visually, it's by far the highest fidelity AVN I've ever seen. The quality and attention to detail is unbelievable.

The only thing I've found underwhelming are the sex scenes. They are plenty, and look gorgeous, but there is no heart in it. They completely lack eroticism and are basically slideshows with "ahh... ohh.... yes..." as sexual dialogue.

Still, I think the game more than qualifies for this thread, so I'll add it to the OP. I'd love to hear what you guys think of it

 

[Raife]

I recently played Divergence: Beyond the Singularity. It's very good, but not as a porn game. I'll explain.

Sounds promising, jufot: thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out.

I think we've established that a lack of sex does not disqualify entrants into the 'story-first' games category. Plenty of my favourite games have very little to no sex in them... at least not yet. I'm a bit less sold on games that have actively _bad_ or non-appealing sex, like _Sorcerer_. While I enjoy the story in that game a great deal, it probably deserves a couple of demerits for dull, mechanical sex. That doesn't make it an unenjoyable game... but it will probably keep it off my list of top games.

Somewhat separate topic: what did you think of the _Price of Power_ update?

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[jufot]

Somewhat separate topic: what did you think of the _Price of Power_ update?

I shared my thoughts on the thread here and here

Panda seems to have addressed some of your concerns
[...]
Question: which 'augments' did you choose?

Yeah, he definitely did! I don't remember which stats I chose and since they only affect minor flavour text, I don't particularly care either way

 

[Raife]

Isabella: Dark Paths might be worth following. It's early days, but it has a few promising aspects... the plot could go off the rails and porn logic could take over... but the dev seems to have a plan and be sticking to it.

 

[jufot]

Isabella: Dark Paths might be worth following. It's early days, but it has a few promising aspects... the plot could go off the rails and porn logic could take over... but the dev seems to have a plan and be sticking to it.

Just gave it a try. So far, so good. I liked Alex, she is witty and cool. Isabella is... too much of a damsel in distress, I hope she'll be a given a proper personality soon. I'm cautiously optimistic