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Recommending Story-first games

5.00 star(s) 8 Votes

Hildegardt

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2017
1,115
2,288
Adding to level of support, I was really surprise when I saw Summer Heat had 500 patrons, well-deserved and props to the dev team but the game has 0 story so far. The characters go to Summer Camp and do summer camp activities, and then?

The story hasn't even begin and yet it garners 5x more patrons than games I consider to be actually good in terms of their stories.
Interestingly Summer Heat has horror in the planned tags. It's hard to say if there'll be more to it in the future or if this'll be just a short and innocent side plot, because, as you said, for now there isn't much to the game besides nice renders and good gameplay. There are already some hints of a mystery between the hostess of the camp, her "friend" and her sister. And the childhood friend with the obvious crush on the PC is ominously side-eying all the women he interacts with.
But even if they had planned a horror story at one point, I have to wonder if the support they're getting for the game in its current state wouldn't change their plans. I can't imagine something like a crazed heartbroken woman going around killing off all the other LIs would go over well with the game's current audience.

But still, as it stands now, the game doesn't have a harem tag planned, but it does have a horror tag planned and some shady characters currently in the game.
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,369
14,585
Adding to level of support, I was really surprise when I saw Summer Heat had 500 patrons, well-deserved and props to the dev team but the game has 0 story so far. The characters go to Summer Camp and do summer camp activities, and then?

The story hasn't even begin and yet it garners 5x more patrons than games I consider to be actually good in terms of their stories.

The one single thing Summer Heat does exceptionally well is face proportions and in general how real the character looks. It's character's looks is one of the best if not the best in the genre, and that in itself is enough to garner 500 people backing it. I don't think there's even that many adult scenes yet.

I find the high number of support for the game to be an interesting thing because it showed me that a game doesn't have to have good story or even adult scenes to have that level of backers. The market also accept something unique like extremely realistic face proportions.

Speaking of, I do still think for reasons I still can't fathom, Honey Select developers are just gimped on the level of support. In general they have less patrons for their game despite the fact that some HS games do have good stories.
I think Summer Heat actually will develop into a pretty interesting story. It's just that the story didn't get to the rising action yet. There are breadcrumbs of something going on, but not enough to really set things in motion. But it did grab my attention upon the first release which is more than could be said for most games that are not about fetishes I look to fap to. As you say, the visual presentation is really good. Not just in models or renders, but the camera placement and such.

https://f95zone.to/threads/summer-heat-v0-4-1-naughty-fox-games.107102/post-7841430
My thoughts on this game after playing one of the earlier versions.

That said, Hildegardt makes a good point. The initial reception was surprisingly positive, and I could picture them shifting course and doing a more standard dating sim romance thing while shifting the mystery and potential horror aspects to the background. I wouldn't necessarily be against that idea.
 
Nov 9, 2022
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437
All right! I've finished Outlining my formula for a 100% believable Harem Ending. I call it the . (Hubris much, Past Me?) Go ahead. Kick the tires. Poke holes in it. Make Comments on the Google Document. Complain that it's boring or too long or that you really like some oddly specific element of the existing harem fantasy genre. I want to learn and improve my writing!
 

camube

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2022
1,352
1,228
Interestingly Summer Heat has horror in the planned tags. It's hard to say if there'll be more to it in the future or if this'll be just a short and innocent side plot, because, as you said, for now there isn't much to the game besides nice renders and good gameplay. There are already some hints of a mystery between the hostess of the camp, her "friend" and her sister. And the childhood friend with the obvious crush on the PC is ominously side-eying all the women he interacts with.
But even if they had planned a horror story at one point, I have to wonder if the support they're getting for the game in its current state wouldn't change their plans. I can't imagine something like a crazed heartbroken woman going around killing off all the other LIs would go over well with the game's current audience.

But still, as it stands now, the game doesn't have a harem tag planned, but it does have a horror tag planned and some shady characters currently in the game.
I think Summer Heat actually will develop into a pretty interesting story. It's just that the story didn't get to the rising action yet. There are breadcrumbs of something going on, but not enough to really set things in motion. But it did grab my attention upon the first release which is more than could be said for most games that are not about fetishes I look to fap to. As you say, the visual presentation is really good. Not just in models or renders, but the camera placement and such.

https://f95zone.to/threads/summer-heat-v0-4-1-naughty-fox-games.107102/post-7841430
My thoughts on this game after playing one of the earlier versions.

That said, Hildegardt makes a good point. The initial reception was surprisingly positive, and I could picture them shifting course and doing a more standard dating sim romance thing while shifting the mystery and potential horror aspects to the background. I wouldn't necessarily be against that idea.
I rarely ever check tags, but yeah even before Update 4, up until Update 3, Summer heat already has that "unsettling" vibe to it.
Other than the Summer Camp setting, the childhood friend is pretty "scary" already to me. Like the directing of the game portraying how she look at MC I mean.

Also yeah it would be interesting to see if Summer Heat would pivot to lighter storyline due to their popularity or stick to their guns and deliver the story they initially set out to write.

I'm still amazed by Summer Heat's "realism" of the faces. Everyone praises BaDIK for having amazing render, but I do think something about Summer Heat, whether it's the lighting or the bone structures or whatever, it makes it just looks "real" 1 tier above anything else that is DAZ-based.
As real as a 3d picture can look real at least.

I take it that the 500 patron number to mean that people does agree with that take and want to see more of Summer Heat despite the fact that the story hasn't even begun.
 
Nov 9, 2022
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I can't imagine something like a crazed heartbroken woman going around killing off all the other LIs would go over well with the game's current audience.
In the Japanese visual novel industry, that's called a Yandere! :D They're... an acquired taste. Moderately popular in games with stakes. The OG was Shampoo from the manga Ranma 1/2.
 

Éama

Member
Apr 17, 2022
130
861
All right! I've finished Outlining my formula for a 100% believable Harem Ending. I call it the . (Hubris much, Past Me?) Go ahead. Kick the tires. Poke holes in it. Make Comments on the Google Document. Complain that it's boring or too long or that you really like some oddly specific element of the existing harem fantasy genre. I want to learn and improve my writing!
I thought that New Coral City did a very good job of creating such a cascade. I feel the "confidant for all" is a bit fairytale logic or what a lot of people would describe as a superchad. A guy or girl who transcendes the conflicts between all other protagonists because he or she is basically a superhero of love.
What I loved about NCC is that the developer said "No, fuck that" and basically every love interest moved on once you rejected their advances. They all found love elsewhere. Different love, sometimes utterly dysfunctional, but love that was their own. It wasn't the most enjoyable dating sim I ever played but to be fair it felt like the developer was holding up the mirror and I was quite impressed with it.

The only harem fantasy I personally can credibly enjoy is that of the cuddle MC. An MC who is not looking for sex (it may happen but its not the foundation), but who is like a campfire that everyone can warm themselves around. LIs come and go, sometimes they don't see each other for days, weeks or months. But when they meet again, there is just warmth and affection. I think this unconditional warmth is what many people long for. And why they might not have a problem loving religious figures or celebrities together with millions of other people. I think sexuality ruins that warmth to some extent, makes it conditional so to say. A sexual harem is usually a superchad fantasy. The problem with the sexual harem is that the MC cannot be weak, he needs to the voice of reason as you say, the shoulder to cry on, the muscle to protect. A cuddle MC doesn't have to be strong, he can be flawed and strange, she can be straight or homosexual, extro- or introverted, a pop icon or a couch potatoe. Cecilia in Summer's End for instance, she is just a supporting character but I can totally see a harem around her. Some people just have this particular gravity that cannot be explained and no sex is required to fall in love with them.
 
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The problem with the sexual harem is that the MC cannot be weak, he needs to the voice of reason as you say, the shoulder to cry on, the muscle to protect. A cuddle MC doesn't have to be strong, he can be flawed and strange, she can be straight or homosexual, extro- or introverted, a pop icon or a couch potatoe. Cecilia in Summer's End for instance, she is just a supporting character but I can totally see a harem around her. Some people just have this particular gravity that cannot be explained and no sex is required to fall in love with them.
You make a lot of very good points. I suppose I was overly-specific in defining both the MC and their role in the plot. I wonder how many extraneous details I can strip away without breaking what it's supposed to do. :unsure:

Ideally, the document would describe the requirements of an MC in such a way that both your ideal and my ideal fit, but without being so broad that "bad" harem game MCs don't fit the bill.

Or (at the risk of making sexist generalizations,) maybe I just have no idea what women want. Maybe men, in general, don't fantasize about becoming what women want. Maybe that's why good men are so hard to find. I sure hope not. That's pretty depressing.

And also, it would imply an insurmountable difference in design goals between male-demographic-targeting harem stories and female-demographic-targeting harem stories. That would sort of kill any profit motive that could make it become the new norm in the industry for a little while.
 
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Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,068
5,252
maybe I just have no idea what women want. Maybe men, in general, don't fantasize about becoming what women want.
My experience is that a large number of men who play these games want themselves to be different than what women (or at least this one) want. A frequent complaint about my games is that the MCs are "weak" even though I explicitly write them as what I consider to be strong, often overly so.

After more than a decade of having that conversation over and over again with each game I release, I've come to the conclusion that some (most?) men want to be seen as action movie heroes (physically strong fighters). At the same time, some (most?) women don't care about that. We want our men to be emotionally strong and able to support us through our insecurities and struggles.

Of course, there are a lot more men than women playing these games. So, if you're doing this for financial reasons, you're better off making your MCs be what men want.

Tlaero
 

dsgouh

Newbie
Sep 29, 2017
31
37
The Last Sovereign by Sierra Lee.
You can also just download it from or , it's free.

And don't be disappointed with the prologue, it's a joke. :)
It's very well written (I'm not native english and playing this game I felt that my english became better) with detailed world and characters. The gameplay and story are the main parts of this game.

I can write a lot about it, but the short version can be described with example: I once was reading the story and when the sex scene started I caught myself at the thought "Oh no! Not now! I want to read the story and this sex scene is distracting me. I'm playing this game not for this." :LOL: It's not that I dont like sex scenes there, I just liked gameplay and story more.
By the way, when I played the sex scenes were just text written on black window. Now there is some pictures there. :)
And there is a lot of there. When I played first when I finished v.0.2x-something the timer on my save was 200+ hours. Then I started from beginning and now its 700+ hours and I dont regret on any of them, because it was 700 hours of pure joy of gameplay, story, exploring and thinking about investments and such.

P.S. A shame that Reluctant Archon is abandoned now. :cry:
 
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My experience is that a large number of men who play these games want themselves to be different than what women (or at least this one) want. A frequent complaint about my games is that the MCs are "weak" even though I explicitly write them as what I consider to be strong, often overly so.

After more than a decade of having that conversation over and over again with each game I release, I've come to the conclusion that some (most?) men want to be seen as action movie heroes (physically strong fighters). At the same time, some (most?) women don't care about that. We want our men to be emotionally strong and able to support us through our insecurities and struggles.

Of course, there are a lot more men than women playing these games. So, if you're doing this for financial reasons, you're better off making your MCs be what men want.

Tlaero
Okay. That's not so bad. Is there any reason the MC couldn't be physically and emotionally strong? Hollywood's been doing that for decades, and getting it right at least 20% of the time.

But, wait... what part of my initial write-up made the MC sound emotionally weak? I don't think I even specified that the MC had to be male. I wasn't describing them fighting anybody. I didn't even specify an A-Plot. Most of what I was describing was listening and trying to be helpful and putting the LIs first.
 

EndlessNights

Member
Jun 18, 2022
315
2,173
All right! I've finished Outlining my formula for a 100% believable Harem Ending. I call it the . (Hubris much, Past Me?) Go ahead. Kick the tires. Poke holes in it. Make Comments on the Google Document. Complain that it's boring or too long or that you really like some oddly specific element of the existing harem fantasy genre. I want to learn and improve my writing!
I found your doc to be a good though certainly lengthy read so it gives me a fine opportunity to provide a similarly verbose response. I think you've provided an interesting outline for a story or VN centered around the organic development of a polyamorous relationship. There's plenty of room for drama over each of the phases you've described so it certainly shouldn't be boring and all the pieces fit together nicely at the end.

In general I think I'd tend to find a polyamorous relationship in which everyone loves everyone else more believable than a harem because it's more equal and better tailored to fit the needs of every member of the relationship. In a traditional harem, everything is centered around one member who gets all the attention and love, but this central figure's time and affection has to be divided among all the members of the harem. If you're not the central figure, you're getting less of everything compared to what you'd get in a monogamous relationship with only the potential addition of camaraderie with the other members to make up for it.

A VN following this formula might still end up not being so fun to play depending on how the player approaches it. The matchmaking phase is one likely stumbling block for me because I can easily get invested in relationships that don't involve the MC and want to see them succeed in their own right. I suspect that feeling would only be magnified if part of the gameplay involves the MC actively connecting other characters together. Once I put on my grey eminence hat, I want to see all my little schemes succeed. Indeed, it will likely feel like failure when the relationships don't work out and the MC has to put on his or her counselor and ethical slut recruiter hats.

Using New Coral City as an example, I had playthroughs where I supported David and Melissa getting together at every opportunity. Finding out he doesn't really care about her actually feels bad when you play that way even though it opens up new narrative opportunities, including the chance for the MC deepen his own relationship with Melissa. Similarly, I always tend to want Becca's relationship to work out even though I know it won't since she is, to me, one of the best best friends in the history of VNs and I want to see her be happy.

If the couples created in the matchmaking phase are compelling enough, a potential monogamous pairing between characters C and D might for example seem more romantic than the big poly relationship that's coming in the end that everything is supposed to be leading up to. It would also be easy to make the connections between the MC and the other characters too weak. One problem I notice sometimes with throuples in VNs is that the usually preexisting relationship between two women can seem more real and meaningful than the triangle that emerges after the MC gets involved. It has to be a lonely feeling to be in a relationship with people who love each other more than they love you.

I imagine it's safe to say that anyone who strongly hates seeing any character hook up with someone who is not the MC could very well also take a hostile view towards poly games. There are harem games with a lot of lesbian scenes, but usually the male MC is at least watching. Are we prepared as a community for the inevitable "MC goes off to work and full scale orgy breaks out at home while he's gone" scene? If TranscendentThots' formula does end up becoming popular, I imagine there'll be a lot of "Is poly avoidable?" posts in the future.
 
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Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,068
5,252
Okay. That's not so bad. Is there any reason the MC couldn't be physically and emotionally strong? Hollywood's been doing that for decades, and getting it right at least 20% of the time.

But, wait... what part of my initial write-up made the MC sound emotionally weak? I don't think I even specified that the MC had to be male. I wasn't describing them fighting anybody. I didn't even specify an A-Plot. Most of what I was describing was listening and trying to be helpful and putting the LIs first.
I was agreeing with the part of your post that I quoted. Certainly physically and emotionally strong is good in my book, though some people have decided that being emotionally supportive of a woman makes you "weak." To them, you're only "strong" if you dominate everyone. I could armchair psychoanalyze those people, but ... I won't. :)

Tlaero
 

noping123

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jun 24, 2021
1,730
2,769
I was agreeing with the part of your post that I quoted. Certainly physically and emotionally strong is good in my book, though some people have decided that being emotionally supportive of a woman makes you "weak." To them, you're only "strong" if you dominate everyone. I could armchair psychoanalyze those people, but ... I won't. :)

Tlaero

I was bored yesterday while waiting on some renders, and came across this thread. It really encapsulates exactly what you're saying. I may have face-palmed a few times reading through it. There seemed to be a prevailing attitude amongst some people posting there that was basically "If you don't physically, mentally, and emotionally dominate a woman, give 0 shits about her, make her your effective slave, then you're not a REAL man". It was..... sad.

There were also some voices of reason stating "You can be an 80s action hero, and still not a piece of shit." Not everyone seemed to understand that concept.

I don't think too much on it, but it's a weird attitude IMO - the whole idea that if you don't effectively treat women like shit, you're not a "real man", you're just some effeminate sissy boy.


My MC is rather passive most of the time - going through trying to figure out his shit - but actually cares about the people around him. He also does kick someone's ass at one point (or possibly tries to and fails miserably!). To me, none of this makes him a "Man" or a "sissy" or anything other than a normal halfway decent person.

Idk maybe it's just me, but I just don't get the entire concept of "Men have to be men! Women have to be women! Men go grr women go please sir may I have another!".


It's interesting to me, when I think of a game that actually plays around with this a little bit - Badik. The game has a "dik/chick" system.... your alignment is one of the two. Dick alignment? You're often an asshole to people (not everyone, still decent occasionally, but fairly often an ass), get in fights a lot, etc. Chick? You're overtly passive, back down from things often, never assert yourself.... A part of me wonders (rhetorically) why those are "Dick/Chick" aligned things... but that's a question of society at large so we won't really go there.

The more interesting bit of it to me, is the Neutral path - the one where you're not overly passive, stand up for things when you feel its necessary, back down when it's the better choice, aren't a general ass to people.... Interestingly enough, this path has some of the most available options in ways you can play (and women you can pursue) vs any of the others. I haven't played through every single available path, but to my knowledge only one or two people are "locked out" on a neutral path - while going full dik or full chick does lock out quite a few.

I have no idea where I was going with all of this, aside from just vomiting my random thoughts out. Ultimately I can understand wanting to see one thing or the other in various works of fiction, the problem is many people take those mindsets well outside of fiction, and then decide "No, everyone around me is wrong because it should obviously be this way". It's just... weird.
 
Nov 9, 2022
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I was bored yesterday while waiting on some renders, and came across this thread. It really encapsulates exactly what you're saying. I may have face-palmed a few times reading through it. There seemed to be a prevailing attitude amongst some people posting there that was basically "If you don't physically, mentally, and emotionally dominate a woman, give 0 shits about her, make her your effective slave, then you're not a REAL man". It was..... sad.
You're reminding me of a conversation I had years ago with... let's call them a feminist who was into mascdom. They said that the real problem they had with straight porn was just that a lot of behaviors that ought to be labeled as kink were instead labeled mainstream.

Then again, Patreon won't let us label anything mascdom... :censored:
 
Nov 9, 2022
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I think you've provided an interesting outline for a story or VN centered around the organic development of a polyamorous relationship. There's plenty of room for drama over each of the phases you've described so it certainly shouldn't be boring and all the pieces fit together nicely at the end.
Ah, that's gratifying to hear. That's basically all I was trying to do. It landed. :D

In general I think I'd tend to find a polyamorous relationship in which everyone loves everyone else more believable than a harem because it's more equal and better tailored to fit the needs of every member of the relationship. In a traditional harem, everything is centered around one member who gets all the attention and love, but this central figure's time and affection has to be divided among all the members of the harem. If you're not the central figure, you're getting less of everything compared to what you'd get in a monogamous relationship with only the potential addition of camaraderie with the other members to make up for it.
You know... I've been treating "harem" and "polyamory" almost as synonyms, all this time, at least in the context of a harem porn game with a partial or full orgy as the "endgame" sex scene. Now I'm starting to wonder if maybe they're totally different things.

Can anyone think of an example (real or hypothetical) of a game that has all female LIs, a male MC, and ends with an orgy, but which did not merit the harem tag?

A VN following this formula might still end up not being so fun to play depending on how the player approaches it. The matchmaking phase is one likely stumbling block for me because I can easily get invested in relationships that don't involve the MC and want to see them succeed in their own right. I suspect that feeling would only be magnified if part of the gameplay involves the MC actively connecting other characters together. Once I put on my grey eminence hat, I want to see all my little schemes succeed. Indeed, it will likely feel like failure when the relationships don't work out and the MC has to put on his or her counselor and ethical slut recruiter hats.
I don't know what a grey eminence is or does but my thinking was that the LIs decide which other LIs they're attracted to. The MC's dayjob might be professional Matchmaker on Love Finders With Two Rs And A Z Dot Com, but the player doesn't actually make matches in-game. Rather, something happens like A meets MC at the grocery store, they strike up a conversation because waiting in line is boring and MC is spotaneous. Then A finds out MC is a Matchmaker, so they ask if they can explain what B's ambiguous text means. Something like that.

I actually haven't thought through the gameplay, but if I were to design a game using this model, mechanically speaking, I think the choiches would probably boil down to:
  • Logistics (Deciding which LIs you want to engage with first)
  • Telling the game what type of content you want to see
  • Player self-expression through the use of the MC as an avatar
  • Trying to make good decisions to help the team "win" at the A-Plot
The player can not tell the LIs who to date, because in-universe, that's not their call to make, and they know it. Likewise, the player would not get the option to treat the LIs like shit, because the MC already has their own goals and a personality, and that's not what the MC would do. There's no evil route, and there's no "you fucked up" route, at least not when it comes to relationships. I suppose that's potentially a form of Ludonarrative Dissonance, but I feel it's justified here. Not least of which because this iteration of the design is meant to be the simplest possible form of it, and this keeps it reasonably self-correcting.

Using New Coral City as an example, I had playthroughs where I supported David and Melissa getting together at every opportunity. Finding out he doesn't really care about her actually feels bad when you play that way even though it opens up new narrative opportunities, including the chance for the MC deepen his own relationship with Melissa. Similarly, I always tend to want Becca's relationship to work out even though I know it won't since she is, to me, one of the best best friends in the history of VNs and I want to see her be happy.
I believe I made it pretty clear that each of the LIs (at least when I tested it with a max of 7) care, in one way or another, about each of the rest of the LIs, by the end of it. What, specifically, they each see in each other LI is an exercise for the writer, but since they already have compatible skills and are working together to resolve the A-Plot, that's one easy way to show the audience that they have things in common and maybe chemistry. Maybe you could do the Legolas/Gimley thing where they hate each other, but then they keep one-upping each other trying to solve the A-Plot, until the audience is rooting for a Rivals To Lovers.

Another good technique is give them strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other. Maybe one of them can't cook but gives great massages. Maybe the other one is a great cook with a bad back. Stuff like that. So they're obviously stronger together than seperately. Make neighbors on the loop (forwards and backwards) have these complimentary traits, and let the A-Plot provide common ground for everybody else.

Also, don't underestimate banter. A good scene of sitting around chatting over dinner can work wonders for revealing chemistry if you're good at banter.

If the couples created in the matchmaking phase are compelling enough, a potential monogamous pairing between characters C and D might for example seem more romantic than the big poly relationship that's coming in the end that everything is supposed to be leading up to. It would also be easy to make the connections between the MC and the other characters too weak. One problem I notice sometimes with throuples in VNs is that the usually preexisting relationship between two women can seem more real and meaningful than the triangle that emerges after the MC gets involved. It has to be a lonely feeling to be in a relationship with people who love each other more than they love you.
Worst case scenario, the player shipping C and D who absolutely does not give a shit about B or E still gets to pull the trigger on one of three superficially different ways of encouraging C to pursue D. The worst we can say about these shippers is they have a favorite part of your game and you left 'em wanting more. I'd argue it's no worse than when somebody says their favorite character "needs a longer route" in a regular harem game.

It's a good problem to have. And it's not the problem this design was intended to solve. If you can think of a way around it other than just "make all the routes long enough to be the main course," let me know.

When this happens, the dev usually didn't intend it. It just hit different for some reason. Something about that LI (or in your hypothetical, that pairing of LIs,) that specific reader felt deeply. There's no way I can think of to write around that, because the dev didn't write it. The player did.

, amirite?

(Of course, if a large chunk of your userbase is all saying the same thing, you should absolutely make a spinoff game starring that specific power couple living their best lives as they romp their way through a fantabulous sexventure.)

I imagine it's safe to say that anyone who strongly hates seeing any character hook up with someone who is not the MC could very well also take a hostile view towards poly games. There are harem games with a lot of lesbian scenes, but usually the male MC is at least watching. Are we prepared as a community for the inevitable "MC goes off to work and full scale orgy breaks out at home while he's gone" scene? If TranscendentThots' formula does end up becoming popular, I imagine there'll be a lot of "Is poly avoidable?" posts in the future.
In the specific case of a male MC and all female LIs, the chances of this are minimized, especially since they knoe they're working towards that endgame orgy scene.

You might be able to write around it, by making the LIs turn up (not drunk or otherwise compromised) and wanting a rebound fling with the MC (which they'd gladly oblige) before they tell the MC about their love woes. Of course, this could make the MC seem supernaturally attractive if the game keeps doing it with all the characters, which is one of the "Badly Written Harem Game" red flags.

At some point, you're just going to have to pick your battles and hope that you can execute so well on the rest of the content that these players hold their noses and keep playing anyway and enjoy the experience despite their hangups.

(And if your goal is to get them to hold their tongues rather than their noses, I'm afraid that the only way to do that is to not make a game at all.)

Actually, now that I think about it, this whole mess is starting to sound a lot like one of those , so it might be a good idea to review the sort of tools game devs have for addressing those.

In our specific case, we're trying to deliver on the following (admittedly sexist but only because of demographic research) design goals:
  • I want men to get the Peak Experience of seducing all the hotties in town, and the Catharsis of being able to feel proud about doing it (Requires that the game have hotties and a way to sleep with them and no judgement or player-facing hard decisions about sex.)
  • I want women to find the female characters well-written (Requires LIs to have obvious and relatable agency, goals, motivations)
I'd argue that this problem is not cursed. It's just very hard. (Which is probably why everybody else uses cheat codes like a femmepocalypse or a eugenics plot.) But if you think the phrase "well-written harem game" means something else, you might have different design goals in mind.

What do you think?
 
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My experience is that a large number of men who play these games want themselves to be different than what women (or at least this one) want. A frequent complaint about my games is that the MCs are "weak" even though I explicitly write them as what I consider to be strong, often overly so.

After more than a decade of having that conversation over and over again with each game I release, I've come to the conclusion that some (most?) men want to be seen as action movie heroes (physically strong fighters). At the same time, some (most?) women don't care about that. We want our men to be emotionally strong and able to support us through our insecurities and struggles.

Of course, there are a lot more men than women playing these games. So, if you're doing this for financial reasons, you're better off making your MCs be what men want.

Tlaero
Oh, and if you ever feel insecure about whether your mans are written manly enough, feel free to consult . You may find it enlightening! :p
 

realjitter

Member
Jun 21, 2021
297
372
Praise them Alphas!

Haven't played the neutral path in BaDIK yet and i probably never will, but i always thought the reasons for getting into a fight in this game made the MC look more like a moron than a "cool guy". Fighting some bean brains doens't exactly make you a badass in my book :p. Fighting some thug in a back alley?. Sure, if you wanna risk potentially getting stabbed over some money.., go for it bad boy ..

I think in RL i got into a fight only once when i was around 19. (Super cliche, white knight story incoming).
It took place at some german central station on my way home. I was standing outside having a smoke when i saw a black girl getting pestered by three skin heads/wannabe nazis.. At first i was just observing, thinking what a bunch of idiots they were. But after a while it got worse and they started to also get physical with the girl. At that point i was thinking to myself "Ok, am i really going to do this?. Am i this stupid?. You know what'll happen, don't you?". Apparently i was that stupid because i decided to intervene. So I went over there and "confronted" them. I took them all out effortlessly one by one and ended being together with the girl and we lived happily ever after.... I also had sex later that day with some grocery girl i met. Also my mom, my sister and the neighbours daughters (Yes it was a threesome)... THE END!

Yeah.., not really though :p. Well, let's just say it didn't go well for me. They, as i already predicted, immediately started to beat me down without any provocation. I was laying on the ground and they just kept kicking me all over until eventually the police showed up and they ran away... But i was lucky i guess, no broken bones just some bruises...
Yeah, what a glorious day that was :p. A glorious day indeed.... Fighting is cool as fuck!

So, am i an alpha dude because i decided to intervene or am i a wimp for failing to beat all 3 of them down?=)
Who cares, but i always can't help myself other than roliing my eyes when stuff like this happens in an AVN. Sometimes i get the feeling that AVNs are mainly targeted at pretty insecure keyboard ninjas :p. Like me of course
 
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Nov 1, 2022
32
84
Praise them Alphas!

Haven't played the neutral path in BaDIK yet and i probably never will, but i always thought the reasons for getting into a fight in this game made the MC look more like a moron than a "cool guy". Fighting some bean brains doens't exactly make you a badass in my book :p. Fighting some thug in a back alley?. Sure, if you wanna risk potentially getting stabbed over some money.., go for it bad boy ..

I think in RL i got into a fight only once when i was around 19. (Super cliche, white knight story incoming).
It took place at some german central station on my way home. I was standing outside having a smoke when i saw a black girl getting pestered by three skin heads/wannabe nazis.. At first i was just observing, thinking what a bunch of idiots they were. But after a while it got worse and they started to also get physical with the girl. At that point i was thinking to myself "Ok, am i really going to do this?. Am i this stupid?. You know what'll happen, don't you?". Apparently i was that stupid because i decided to intervene. So I went over there and "confronted" them. I took them all out effortlessly one by one and ended being together with the girl and we lived happily ever after.... I also had sex later that day with some grocery girl i met. Also my mom, my sister and the neighbours daughters (Yes it was a threesome)... THE END!

Yeah.., not really though :p. Well, let's just say it didn't go well for me. They, as i already predicted, immediately started to beat me down without any provocation. I was laying on the ground and they just kept kicking me all over until eventually the police showed up and they ran away... But i was lucky i guess, no broken bones just some bruises...
Yeah, what a glorious day that was :p. A glorious day indeed.... Fighting is cool as fuck!

So, am i an alpha dude because i decided to intervene or am i a wimp for failing to beat all 3 of them down?=)
Who cares, but i always can't help myself other than roliing my eyes when stuff like this happens in an AVN. Sometimes i get the feeling that AVNs are mainly targeted at pretty insecure keyboard ninjas :p. Like me of course
At least you got in there! Good for you.
 
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