Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

I hope you folks like it!

I really liked it! I wonder who or what helped MC out there... My favourite quote from the chapter:

What was good for the goose... is good for the other goose.

Indeed

 

[red_faced]

Light of My Life.

 

[jufot]

Arisushi (of One Night Stand fame) has a new game out! It's called Zia.

From the synopsis:

Zia is a modern-day witch, hiding in plain sight as a stage magician. But when the world of magic slowly starts bleeding into the ordinary, Zia will have to make some pretty tough decisions that will change the course of her life.

The main cast was revealed by a series of

You must be registered to see the links

on Patreon over the last two months - they're definitely worth checking out.

This chapter is just a small introduction to the world and a few characters, but it already has that unique charm Arisushi's games tend to have for me. Like most of his MCs, Zia is a witty and confident woman who is very easy to like. She has a best friend who matches that energy, and their banter flows effortlessly. The men, on the other hand, are largely absent in this short intro, but what little presence they have is very entertaining.

The new artist looks promising. I like how they stage the scenes. There is a bit where Zia undresses before having a bath, and the most we see is her bare midriff. It's not a sexual scene - it gently teases the reader, leaving the rest to imagination. It's nice to see VN artists who appreciate a little mystery and eroticism.

Anyway, Zia is good and you all should take a look

 

[kotte]

I hope you folks like it!

I loved it! The diving scene was really claustrophobic, giving me flasbacks to The Abyss, Pressure and Sphere ("You're not alone out there"...). You really are creating a thriller!
And I love how we are getting different pieces of the puzzle when we play as different characters.

 

[Arisushi]

The new artist looks promising. I like how they stage the scenes. There is a bit where Zia undresses before having a bath, and the most we see is her bare midriff. It's not a sexual scene - it gently teases the reader, leaving the rest to imagination. It's nice to see VN artists who appreciate a little mystery and eroticism.

Anyway, Zia is good and you all should take a look

Thank you for the shout out (Really glad you enjoyed the update )

I was really lucky to get Sarnko onboard for this project. If there's one thing I'd like to say about this project, it would be to watch out for his art from 0.3 onward. (Because, once the 0.2 update is complete, we'll be getting into some pretty fun visual stuff.)

 

[kotte]

...it gently teases the reader, leaving the rest to imagination. It's nice to see VN artists who appreciate a little mystery and eroticism.

This also goes for the storytelling. We are introduced to a world where magic exists, where there are certain rules to follow etc., but all this is understood in the subtext. No unnecessary monologue where the MC is explaining how everything works.

A very promising start!

 

[realjitter]

Also checked out Zia and i kinda liked it, i guess?. I say kinda because i'm personally not much into fantasy or "magic" stories. I have to know a little more about the world and the story in general before i can say if this one is for me or not.

Well, supposingly this will have a straight and a gay route which is always nice to see. Here the MC starts out as a straight woman which makes it a bit more interesting for a change. Gives the developer a bit more to work with too because in my playthrough she'll definately come to the conclusion at some point that:

"Oh my fucking god, i like boobs, don't I?"
"It cant be!"
"No way!"
"I gotta use my magic to fix this.. "
"Quickly now.....abracadabra..."
"...."
"You motherf..."
"It didn't work. I'm still thinking about boobs.."

Other than that I think there was only 1 choice in this first release if i'm not mistaken. That choice was kinda interesting though. At least it felt that way to me. Was it about pro/contra magic usage?. Or was it just a simple "Wanna see scene A or B" decision?. Probably the later, but...

Anyways, nice start. Nice, moody visuals... Liked the music too.... So, yeah.. not bad

 

[jufot]

in my playthrough she'll definately come to the conclusion at some point that [...]

Haha, same! It helps that the best friend is cute and funny like her

Other than that I think there was only 1 choice in this first release if i'm not mistaken. That choice was kinda interesting though. At least it felt that way to me. Was it about pro/contra magic usage?. Or was it just a simple "Wanna see scene A or B" decision?. Probably the later, but...

There is actually a variable set based on that choice, but it's called "temp" and is not being used anywhere (yet?)

 

[Tlaero]

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path? Many (most?) games are single MC, but that's pretty unique to games. It's fairly rare for a novel or a movie or a TV show to lock to a single POV character. And you can do so much more storytelling if you can tell things from multiple viewpoints.

I recognize that a substantial portion of F95 will hate any game where they can't self-insert, but I've told that story so many times that I'd like to do something "different." (Air quotes because, like I said, these techniques are pretty standard in storytelling everywhere else.)

If a story had multiple MCs, which techniques would you like (or dislike) more?
1) Single MC with a parallel story told through flashbacks or cutscenes (a la the video sequences in Chasing Beth).
2) Two similar MCs (ie straight men) telling stories in series (finish one before starting the next). Effectively, this is two separate games.
3) Two (or more) similar MCs whose stories are interleaved, but they are allies. (A la the Avengers.)
4) Two similar MCs who are working against each other (ie, they're both competing for the same LI).
5) Two MCs who are quite different (ie, a straight man and a gay woman).
6) A main MC but with many "side quests" told from the viewpoints of a variety of different characters.

Importantly, I'm asking about a story where most (or all) of this happens in the same playthrough. I'm not planning to do another "Choose your gender and LI" game.

Tlaero

 

[TheimmortalP]

Thanks for letting me know about this Jufot. Like I said with One Night Stand, I find the good ending for ONS hits too close to home for me that I need to avoid it for the sake of my mental health. I definately wanna check it out.

In the meantime can you please recommend something else that's VERY VERY dark and serious for me to get into? I need something to lose myself in for a bit. I need something really memorable, preferably with a really great soundtrack, and a very compelling main character. Anyone else in this topic is also free to answer as well.

 

[Dragon59]

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path? Many (most?) games are single MC, but that's pretty unique to games. It's fairly rare for a novel or a movie or a TV show to lock to a single POV character. And you can do so much more storytelling if you can tell things from multiple viewpoints.

One of my future projects, my story centering on a polyamorous community, pretty much requires multiple viewpoints. I can center much of the story on the Newbie couple, but there are so many vignettes, side stories that will impact the overall story.

I recognize that a substantial portion of F95 will hate any game where they can't self-insert, but I've told that story so many times that I'd like to do something "different." (Air quotes because, like I said, these techniques are pretty standard in storytelling everywhere else.)

I know what you mean. That was my first thought reading the list. Uncommon in VNs, but pretty common in other media.

If a story had multiple MCs, which techniques would you like (or dislike) more?
1) Single MC with a parallel story told through flashbacks or cutscenes (a la the video sequences in Chasing Beth).
2) Two similar MCs (ie straight men) telling stories in series (finish one before starting the next). Effectively, this is two separate games.
3) Two (or more) similar MCs whose stories are interleaved, but they are allies. (A la the Avengers.)
4) Two similar MCs who are working against each other (ie, they're both competing for the same LI).
5) Two MCs who are quite different (ie, a straight man and a gay woman).
6) A main MC but with many "side quests" told from the viewpoints of a variety of different characters.

In #2, I was imagining switching protagonists every chapter, but completing the story completely before moving on with the next? That sounds to me like moving to a sequel with the next generation. If they are contemporaries, I'd vote for interleaved stories. What just came to mind is a story told by two suspects questioned separately. Though in that case, ultimate MC would be the detective trying to make sense of their stories.

I like #3 for obvious reasons. It is probably how I'll deal with my project. Another example of this type of storytelling would be The Expanse. Disparate characters who have no (or little) knowledge of the others trying to do the best with what they have, only to have their paths eventually cross.

I expect #6 would be a more "popular" approach than #3. The side stories would be 'Kinetic Short Stories" with no real decisions by the player? Am I understanding that correctly?

I expect example #4 would be difficult for a VN. If the player is making decisions for opposing characters, there would be a temptation to choose the least advantageous path for one or the other.

#5 would definitely work for the "Choose your Gender" option. With an alternative like that, you wouldn't need to come up with separate LIs. But that's not your question. If they are in the same game, we might be looking at a special case of #4, which could be difficult.

The only one I would have a problem with (from a practical aspect) is #4. Having a player control both sides can really mess up the story, IMHO.

Importantly, I'm asking about a story where most (or all) of this happens in the same playthrough. I'm not planning to do another "Choose your gender and LI" game
Tlaerost

Are you not wanting to do it this time, or have you been turned off to the approach?
I was thinking of a "Heavy Five" level of character choice for my Steampunk story, but the more I think about it, the more I feel that I'm asking for headaches with little pay off. Plus, when thinking of the game, I really only think of one character, a woman. Harriet G. Wollencroft is my prime character in the story. I can easily run her as straight, bi/pan/omni, or gay, but forcing myself to come up with at least three other MCs (adding cis male and trans options) might make an epic story arc even more confusing. Maybe some time in the future.

 

[desmosome]

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path? Many (most?) games are single MC, but that's pretty unique to games. It's fairly rare for a novel or a movie or a TV show to lock to a single POV character. And you can do so much more storytelling if you can tell things from multiple viewpoints.

I recognize that a substantial portion of F95 will hate any game where they can't self-insert, but I've told that story so many times that I'd like to do something "different." (Air quotes because, like I said, these techniques are pretty standard in storytelling everywhere else.)

If a story had multiple MCs, which techniques would you like (or dislike) more?
1) Single MC with a parallel story told through flashbacks or cutscenes (a la the video sequences in Chasing Beth).
2) Two similar MCs (ie straight men) telling stories in series (finish one before starting the next). Effectively, this is two separate games.
3) Two (or more) similar MCs whose stories are interleaved, but they are allies. (A la the Avengers.)
4) Two similar MCs who are working against each other (ie, they're both competing for the same LI).
5) Two MCs who are quite different (ie, a straight man and a gay woman).
6) A main MC but with many "side quests" told from the viewpoints of a variety of different characters.

Importantly, I'm asking about a story where most (or all) of this happens in the same playthrough. I'm not planning to do another "Choose your gender and LI" game.

Tlaero

Assuming by MC, you mean POV characters we are making choices for...

Male + female MC in the same social circle is the best... if you want to make huge route variations that can lead to romance, open rel, NTR, and all sorts of shenanigans. Basically Our Red Strings style.

Since you are probably not going for something like that... I think having 2 MCs in different time and/or place going through their own story arcs will be nice. Obviously, you should tie them together somehow, either thematically or literally. Making them foils (but not inevitable enemies) of each other would be cool.

In my opinion, you probably don't want the player to be "playing against himself." Well, unless that is the explicit goal, and I can only really think of NTR where that would be the case. Having some conflict between the MCs would be fine, but their primary goal shouldn't be totally opposed to each other.

 

[jufot]

If a story had multiple MCs, which techniques would you like (or dislike) more?
1) Single MC with a parallel story told through flashbacks or cutscenes (a la the video sequences in Chasing Beth).
2) Two similar MCs (ie straight men) telling stories in series (finish one before starting the next). Effectively, this is two separate games.
3) Two (or more) similar MCs whose stories are interleaved, but they are allies. (A la the Avengers.)
4) Two similar MCs who are working against each other (ie, they're both competing for the same LI).
5) Two MCs who are quite different (ie, a straight man and a gay woman).
6) A main MC but with many "side quests" told from the viewpoints of a variety of different characters.

If I had to rank them, it'd be 5 > 6 > 4 > 1 > 3 > 2. It's worth noting that I'm not a self-insert person, and I don't really mind if I can't identify with the MC.

If you are looking to make something "different", I think it'd be better if the MCs are actually different. Not just in the events they experience, but how they experience it because of who they are. It's why I ranked straight man + gay woman first.

Option 6 is a lot more common in novels, but it can work in games, especially if you don't lean too much on having a "main" MC. Divergence is a good example.

 

[realjitter]

My pick would be 4 & 6 since i'm also someone who doesn't self insert himself at all when it comes to AVN's . Although, 4 sounds weird and also pretty hard to realize i imagine. Hell, i couldn't even come up with an example for that kind of story because the biggest enemy, as already mentioned by some1 else here, would be favouritism by the player.

But totally unrelated to all that I wanted bring up the AVN "Alive" here real quick since i finished reading it yesterday. And what can i say, the ending of Chapter 6 was one of the most entertaining things i've seen in an AVN in a long time. Apparently I even hit the "super jackpot" in my run by going the Mandy&Stacey route for maximum drama It was just fucking glorious and i can't wait for the aftermath in chapter 7, not gonna lie. I don't even wanna spoil anything here because it was too good, lol.. It had like 3 cliffhanger endings combined into 1 in my run. So let's just say it was a pretty rough evening for the MC, that poor guy

On top of all that, this was also the very first AVN that had a lewd scene which i experienced almost the exact same way in RL . Not gonna say exactly which one, but it was the most funny one .... Even the dialogue afterwards was kinda similar

I mean, the AVN sure has some problems here and there. For example, I can totally see people playing this and ending up not liking anybody of the cast. I haven't had that problem, but i could see why since the cast is, let's say, very colorful. But it's all good if you can make up for it simply by being entertaining.

 

[Éama]

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path?

I think this "multiple protagonist problem" arises more in the development phase and not when the VN is complete. With novels, I don't mind multiple protagonists because I can usually read several chapters in a row and the individual perspectives come together to form a bigger picture. Even if it takes a while, you can usually tell by the fact that the protagonists are in the same geographical region, or on paths that lead towards each other, that there will be a meeting at some point. It's not so easy to convey when you have only one or two VN chapters published. People would judge this step very harshly I imagine.

The second season of True Detective managed quite well to lead three different paths towards each other without wasting too much time in the process. Usually you don't have as much time and render capacity to do it like in a novel. So in that regard I thought it was a job well done. However, as the season went on I thought to myself that due to the multiple protagonist approach it lost focus compared to the first season.

I'm a bit critical of flashbacks because they also lead to losing focus for the plot. That's not so problematic when there is only one main character, but different protagonists and flashbacks, that can quickly become irritating.
I had a story idea in the past about a main character going through a gender transition. I wanted to start the novel with two perspectives, misleading the reader that there are actually two different protagonists moving towards each other, but at some point I would reveal that it was actually the same person, only changed physically by the transition and personality-wise by different life events. I couldn't pull it off though due to limited skill in storytelling and scrapped the idea as a result.

 

[bacienvu88]

I prefer multiple viewpoints in general. Single POV:s tend to be more one-dimensional imo.

I have no preferences as to what viewpoints. That is something that should be dictated by the story told.

The main problem in VN:s come from when you need to do choices for multiple characters, because then the dev need to be very careful so that choices don't conflict with each other. Our Red String does a pretty good job of doing this.

 

[Hildegardt]

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path? Many (most?) games are single MC, but that's pretty unique to games. It's fairly rare for a novel or a movie or a TV show to lock to a single POV character. And you can do so much more storytelling if you can tell things from multiple viewpoints.

That the AVN community seems to conflate the player character with the main character is kind of a pet peeve of mine.

The thing is that, in a typical AVN, pretty much all the LIs are main characters. As long as a game has a story, even if the story is just about picking up all the girls, the characters that drive the story forward in any way are the main characters. LIs are inherently not side characters and side characters for filler sex scenes are most of the time redundant and bad and would be striked by an editor.
In many cases a particularly passive player character designed for self-inserts can't even fulfill the criteria to be called an MC, because choices like "wanna shag this character YES or NO" don't really advance the plot. But usually the PC is supposed to take the role of the protagonist, meaning the focal point of the story, because players are in a unique position to be an actor within the story.

What's very important to realize, though, when it comes to AVNs rather than porn games, is that characters are only tangentially connected to the narrative perspective. No matter the constellation of MCs and protags, you still always have the choice between all four types of POVs, especially if you use a more novel-like continuous narration like in Toro 7, rather than the usual "speech bubble style".
All four types of POV have their uses. The only faux pas would be constantly switching between them. The first-person narrator is good for hiding plot points from the player, but, if you don't care about self-inserters, you can also use the personal narrator to do the same, or even the neutral narrator, so you don't have to focus on a single character all the time.

From a "story first" perspective I'd say this is less about player preferences and more about what the story needs. For example a fantasy story with intricate world building might need an omniscient narrator to get the point across.

 

[TranscendentThots]

2) Two similar MCs (ie straight men) telling stories in series (finish one before starting the next). Effectively, this is two separate games.

Oooh. That could actually be pretty funny. They're like sitting at a bar, swapping stories, right? But not just two stories. A bunch of short vignettes about their conquests. And they keep trying to one-up each other, so the stories get more and more over-the-top, the more they've had to drink, like some sort of Stand Battle between two Baron Von Munchausens.

4) Two similar MCs who are working against each other (ie, they're both competing for the same LI).

Then it goes full A Way Out, and you end up fighting each other while the LI runs away in disillusionment... enemies to lovers?

Somebody steal this idea from me. I don't want it.

 

[TranscendentThots]

A stray thot just crossed my mind... there's no way it's this easy... but what if one reason all of the LIs are into the MC is just good old fashioned social proof? After all, the other three girls in your Pilates class are all having affairs with him. Are you really going to risk being the odd woman out?

(Please tell me this isn't how it works IRL. That would just be too depressing... although it would also explain a lot... )

 

[Tlaero]

Thank you for your feedback and opinions, folks.

Tlaero