Recommending Story-first games

[TranscendentThots]

Companions have the chance to observe the PC over a long timeframe, so any individual bad roll can be made up for with consistence. Travelling with the PC means many chances to observe both how they act towards them / other companions / make unrelated choices in their presence, showcase their character via flavour/rp choices, etc - all of which can be perceived as attractive / neutral / repulsive by different LIs and - more importantly - weighted differently depending on LIs personality.
(which is one point of feedback re: GDC talk - the vectors should be different sizes to indicate different people value different kinds of 'attractive behaviour/traits' differently)

I didn't bring this up, but I have my doubts. Specifically, I feel like it's doomed to devolve into Mass Effect. By which I mean there's three possible outcomes, and the middle one is boring, so now, the player is basically obligated to choose all the options they think the LI they're trying to woo would be into, something something Ludonarrative Dissonance.

For me, the takeaway from the talk was less about how many and what sorts of choices the player should be presented with, and more about how to write the characters reacting to those choices. The barbarian shouldn't be 80% more impressed by feats of strength than the Wizard. They should leer and make eye contact and lean in and go "Is that all you got?" when you finally beat them at arm-wrestling.

 

[jufot]

It's bad if Brittany is into bad boys and Sarah is into nice guys and MC is nice around Sarah and mean around Brittany? But it's good if Brittany likes his tattoo and Sarah likes his pet sugar glider?

Yes, exactly! Although having a sugar glider as a pet is a minus in my book

But isn't "telling a rude joke" in Brittany's presence something that he did, not something that he was?

Telling a rude joke is something he did. Being into rude jokes is something he is.

What if he just has enough self-awareness not to make the same joke around Sarah, because he expects Sarah would be offended?

I think it's fine in moderation. No two people are a hundred percent compatible, and we all tailor our expressions to suit the other person to some degree. So, where to draw the line? I'd say it depends on how crucial the character trait is to a relationship. You don't have to like rude jokes to be in a relationship with someone who does, but you absolutely can't be with someone who is kind to you but has a history of violence with previous partners.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Yes, exactly! Although having a sugar glider as a pet is a minus in my book

They are basically flying kittens that make affectionate noises, beg for sugar water and ride around on your head for warmth. What's not to like? I will die on this hill, unless one startles me.

 

[TranscendentThots]

but you absolutely can't be with someone who is kind to you but has a history of violence with previous partners.

I'm... going to have to ask you to point out where I said that, because I don't even think there was subtext, man...

 

[jufot]

What's not to like? I will die on this hill, unless one startles me.

They are social, nocturnal animals that need large spaces. Most vets have no experience with them. They are really not meant for domestication and it feels cruel to keep them as pets.

I'm... going to have to ask you to point out where I said that, because I don't even think there was subtext, man...

Again, we misunderstand each other You asked for "counterexamples of traits I definitely shouldn't try to use in this way" and I came up with that one. It's not meant to be commentary on your examples.

 

[Deleted member 4643628]

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path? Many (most?) games are single MC, but that's pretty unique to games. It's fairly rare for a novel or a movie or a TV show to lock to a single POV character. And you can do so much more storytelling if you can tell things from multiple viewpoints.

I recognize that a substantial portion of F95 will hate any game where they can't self-insert, but I've told that story so many times that I'd like to do something "different." (Air quotes because, like I said, these techniques are pretty standard in storytelling everywhere else.)

If a story had multiple MCs, which techniques would you like (or dislike) more?
1) Single MC with a parallel story told through flashbacks or cutscenes (a la the video sequences in Chasing Beth).
2) Two similar MCs (ie straight men) telling stories in series (finish one before starting the next). Effectively, this is two separate games.
3) Two (or more) similar MCs whose stories are interleaved, but they are allies. (A la the Avengers.)
4) Two similar MCs who are working against each other (ie, they're both competing for the same LI).
5) Two MCs who are quite different (ie, a straight man and a gay woman).
6) A main MC but with many "side quests" told from the viewpoints of a variety of different characters.

Importantly, I'm asking about a story where most (or all) of this happens in the same playthrough. I'm not planning to do another "Choose your gender and LI" game.

Tlaero

Hi just do it it will be great.
5 Two Mc who are quite different but more like different motivations character etc. Yes it would be nice to have a male and a female mc.

 

[Dragon59]

Finally!

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is what I needed to hear, all along!

The writing flows naturally from the character interactions, which flow from inter-character Chemistry, which flows from what the LIs and the MC like about each other, which flows from what the developer liked about the LIs.

It's already in our blood to design the LIs to be likable-- to design them to bursting with some sort of Appeal. Give them skills and powers that bolster that appeal, then give them flaws and weaknesses that counter-balance those skills and powers.

Give the LIs backgrounds that explain (in ways the audience will find relatable, or at least forgivable,) how they ended up with those flaws and weaknesses. Give them (again, relatable,) long-term goals based on their backgrounds, flaws and weaknesses.

Then give the MC skills and abilities that would let them cover for the LIs' flaws and weaknesses, thus making any particular character pairing a great team.

Give the MC a long-term goal that they can't accomplish without the LIs' strengths and abilities, and weaknesses and character flaws that could ruin everything, if not kept in check.

Now make the Antagonist the polar opposite of the MC, give them goals that conflict with the MC's, and flaws that make them annoying but not vulnerable.

Now it should pretty much write itself. And you can start with the easy part, "who would I like to fuck and why," and everything else sort of crystalizes around it.

Team Power Fantasy gets an action movie plot with a chance of harem ending, and Team Live Vicariously Through The Love Interests gets proper backstories and internally-consistent motivation. But all of that is dependent on the player figuring out how to make the MC overcome their established character flaws.

Cold open, establish stakes, Dan Harmon Story Circle, back-and-forth conflicts, Yes But / No And goal-based plot progression, occasional flashbacks to reveal character motivations, repeat until Crowning Moment of Awesome, Gravity Falls Ending.

Easy... right?

I love this! Very useful food for thought for my own games, especially the polyamory AVN. There will be a LOT of potential love interests, but this system will help it keep from "Gotta bed them all!" I will have to think about these concepts for the others, but I think it will make my AVNs better for it. I love that it will give the NPCs more agency in the games.

 

[bacienvu88]

Something that would be really interesting I think is to have MC and LI have conflicting traits. That is, both MC and LI have traits that the other really like but also some that they really dislike. Could add some meaningful drama to a relationship instead of it just being a progression of them becoming closer and closer.

The woes of written expression. 5~10 min to think about an interesting question, 40+ min to write it out and keep it semi-readable and coherent for someone who doesn't live in your head. All while the conversation already moved on and makes many of my examples redundant

I feel you. Happens to me all the time.

 

[desmosome]

Something that would be really interesting I think is to have MC and LI have conflicting traits. That is, both MC and LI have traits that the other really like but also some that they really dislike. Could add some meaningful drama to a relationship instead of it just being a progression of them becoming closer and closer.

This is like text book Rom Com, right? There is a reason it's used often (but not so much in porn games, apparently). It lends itself to more interesting dynamics and makes room for characters to grow.

 

[TranscendentThots]

This is like text book Rom Com, right? There is a reason it's used often (but not so much in porn games, apparently). It lends itself to more interesting dynamics and makes room for characters to grow.

"You're a loose cannon, Macho Cop! That's why I'm partnering you up with Single Working Mother Cop!"

 

[TranscendentThots]

The woes of written expression. 5~10 min to think about an interesting question, 40+ min to write it out and keep it semi-readable and coherent for someone who doesn't live in your head. All while the conversation already moved on and makes many of my examples redundant

Always keep posting those redundant examples! Different people learn differently. You never know when your way of phrasing something might land harder than the thing someone else said that made what you said "redundant."

The first thing that crossed my mind when you said 'worst case scenario' was: PC appearing as an unauthentic, all-things-to-all-people poser, LIs losing respect/interest or at the least putting PC firmly from the 'romantic interest' into the Fuckboi category (assuming the person in question is written to be somewhat intelligent/socially competent/self-confident and the PC is physically attractive).

I'm gonna need you to unpack "fuckboi" for me. It's one of those words with a dual meaning and it's never clear to me how people intend it. Are you describing a situation in which the LIs don't want anything to do with the MC because they percieve the MC as only wanting to fuck? Or are you describing the MC as a person the LIs only want to fuck, not settle down with?

 

[Raife]

I'm back from the other side of the blue marble... and from a bit of off-grid time. What did I miss? Has jufot discovered a newfound fascination for games set in American high schools or colleges?

Looking forward to catching up on new releases over the past couple of months, especially the _Toro 7_ update. Anything else good? (I'll read through the threads that I've missed, of course.)

I see that Tlaero is still asking interesting questions:

What do you folks think about games with multiple viewpoint characters on the main path? Many (most?) games are single MC, but that's pretty unique to games. It's fairly rare for a novel or a movie or a TV show to lock to a single POV character. And you can do so much more storytelling if you can tell things from multiple viewpoints.

Instead of just focussing on different FP perpectives, Tlaero (George R.R. Martin's favourite device) you might consider leaning more heavily on reaction shots from NPCs.

Over the holidays, I saw an interview with Richard Gere in which he said that he thought the final scene of _An Officer and a Gentleman_ was going to be completely cheesy and shit, but that the music and the reaction shots made it work. Have a look

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.

I mean, it is objectively cheesy... but Taylor Hackford (the director) also does a number of creative things: there's almost no dialogue, the protagonist and main LI hardly look at anyone (except each other) and the heavy lifting is done by the flawed best friend character, Lynnette, who gets a long reaction shot cycling through her own surprise, jealousy and disappointment... before coming round to happiness for her friend.

In other words, Tlaero, I think it's more than a matter of shifting FP perspectives... you can achieve your goals as a writer with other devices like this.

 

[TranscendentThots]

I'm back from the other side of the blue marble... and from a bit of off-grid time. What did I miss? Has jufot discovered a newfound fascination for games set in American high schools or colleges?

I'm working on it. No promises. How was it?

I mean, it is objectively cheesy...

Only cheese I saw was those earplugs she shoved into his mouth during the kiss? Bet they taste like parmesean.

 

[Raife]

My experience is that a large number of men who play these games want themselves to be different than what women (or at least this one) want. A frequent complaint about my games is that the MCs are "weak" even though I explicitly write them as what I consider to be strong, often overly so.

After more than a decade of having that conversation over and over again with each game I release, I've come to the conclusion that some (most?) men want to be seen as action movie heroes (physically strong fighters). At the same time, some (most?) women don't care about that. We want our men to be emotionally strong and able to support us through our insecurities and struggles.

As someone who has watched the hysterical reaction of some male players to your games with astonishment over the years, I think you must be on to something here.

But I think it goes beyond games, Tlaero -- the notion that strutting physical dominance is an admirable trait that men should aspire to seems ubiquitous these days. It has always been there, of course: the John Wayne-type, physically and mentally invulnerable but remote.

But the Wayne type used to sit alongside the equally admired Gary Cooper in _High Noon_ type: not fearlessly dominant, but brave precisely because they confronted and overcame their fears. Emotionally transparent, resilient and reliable. Daniel in _The Karate Kid_.

I think the men you and I admire are of the second type, Tlaero... that kind of strength, as I've said before, defines your character Joel.

 

[jufot]

I'm back from the other side of the blue marble... and from a bit of off-grid time. What did I miss?

Welcome back! Alas, no newfound college appreciation on my end, but the thread has been interesting. TranscendentThots' introduction to VN harems resulted in the biggest deconstruction of the genre these forums have ever seen. It's seriously long, and difficult to follow at times yet still quite fascinating.

Besides the usual game updates, there has also been a great discussion on designing better LIs based on a GDC talk. It's worth a watch but you could also just read my TLDR instead

 

[TranscendentThots]

I think I'll try to re-write that mess later, when I feel more like I know what I'm talking about. It could be more concise and approachable. Also, I really do need to pick a lane one of these days. Velma taught me the folly of trying to be smart, woke, funny, irreverent and horny, all at the same time.

(Which is weird, because I feel like Rick & Morty mostly got away with a lot of what Velma was trying to pull... )

 

[Raife]

Besides the usual game updates, there has also been a great discussion on designing better LIs based on a GDC talk. It's worth a watch but you could also just read my TLDR instead

I loved it, particularly for the acknowledgement that player laziness and desire for escapism creates demand for crap game romance writing (and 'kindness coins') as well as her observations (from about 19:00 onward) about the appeal and challenges of creating 'chemistry casinos'. HT to Transcendent for sharing it.

The only thing I'd add to her talk is that the best-written romances have multiple 'levels' and branches, just like a well-plotted story... progressing though those levels should require both more luck and greater affinity.

One of my favourite romances in games is also one of the earliest: the Viconia romance in BG2.

As I recall, her drow background made it very difficult to begin the romance, let alone to move it forward -- particularly if you role played a good-aligned MC. You had to show strength and kindness, but not too much of the latter. If you were really, really careful (and lucky... or reloaded a ton) you could win her over. Then, in ToB, if you were even more subtle and determined, the PC's influence could actually shift her worldview and alignment... but, as I recall, that _felt_ like it required a series of lucky breaks. In the end, it was extremely satisfying, because developing that relationship felt realistically difficult and organic (for a good-aligned player). Conversely, winning Aerie over was pure kindness coins... although I also liked her and her story.

 

[Raife]

Jufot, I just wanted to take a quick moment to pop in and respond to your post here:

I agree with jufot's sentiments, noping -- Chapter 6 was a major step forward. I still feel that your MC is underwritten compared to your superb LIs... but those events might snap him out of his torpor.

The end of the chapter also made me think quite a lot about what used to be called 'battered woman syndrome' back in the '90s and self-defence law.

It's your best work so far. Keep it up!

 

[noping123]

I agree with jufot's sentiments, noping -- Chapter 6 was a major step forward. I still feel that your MC is underwritten compared to your superb LIs... but these events might snap him out of his torpor.

The end of the chapter also made me think quite a lot about what used to be called 'battered woman syndrome' back in the '90s and self-defence law.

It's your best work so far. Keep it up!

Thanks for that.

I will say, this is in many ways, a story in two halves.

On the one side, you have Erin who is very much the central character. Something that was incredibly important to me to do (and at least try to do correctly) was for her to be the one to end things (except of course in one of those two endings....) and her... I guess the best way to phrase it would be cold, emotionless acceptance of the situation.

On the other side of it all, you have the MC. Now while not everyone will agree with the choice, and I fully understand why, now I hope you understand at least *why* I chose to have the MC so undeveloped this entire time. Yea on the one hand I get that people will feel less of a connection to the MC, but at least my intention is that he has been... driveless, completely devoid of purpose or desire or really much of anything, and that has been the other side of the story. The MC just sort of going with whatever happened, in desperate need of... something to break him out of his stupor. (I didn't choose the name of the game by accident!). Whether or not events of CH6 were enough, remains to be seen, but my intention has been to try and portray someone who has been for the most part, completely empty. Not someone depressed, or sad, or anything like that. Not someone struggling, or with any real particular hardships or obstacles to overcome, but just someone... empty. Devoid of much of anything. No real emotion, no drive, no goals, nothing of substance, just someone who happens to exist, and not much more. Someone who needs to learn what life really is...... who needs to learn what it really is, to be alive. (Hey there it is!)

That's at least been my intention this whole time, and what I've been working towards since the beginning. It's probable I could have done things a bit differently (And if I started over, I would do a few things differently.... but honestly not a ton), and there may have been better ways to go about it - I won't claim to be the best writer around - but I've always been working towards very specific goals, trying to accomplish them as best I can. In a few months I guess we'll see how successful I really was at that, as a whole.

 

[jufot]

Baldur's Gate is a good example!

[the Viconia romance in BG2 and ToB]

If I recall correctly, in ToB companions never left anyway, regardless of reputation. So it was only a problem in the base game, but that could be avoided by intentionally lowering your reputation by punching peasants And yeah, I think you could push her towards Neutral Good, but it was a slow and painful route with no pay off whatsoever until the very end.

I don't think most players would tolerate that sort of difficulty in AVNs, though. Even BG2 had mods to remove reputation requirements because a lot of people found it tedious.