Recommending Story-first games

[Tlaero]

Are you not wanting to do it this time, or have you been turned off to the approach?

I'm pretty turned off to the approach. Doing 9 sex scenes when most people are only going to see one or two of them (each different ones) has a questionable cost/benefit ratio. I really enjoy being able to tell a story for both straight men and gay women, but the current cost is so high that I could have just written two stories (one MF and one FF) and probably have been done with both of them by now. So, I'm thinking through other storytelling mechanisms for the next major game.

Plus, the next game naturally lends itself to having multiple POV characters, so I'm figuring out if I can "kill two birds with one stone" here.

We've still got a ways to go on Toro 7, but I tend to plan far in advance.

Tlaero

 

[TranscendentThots]

Finally!

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is what I needed to hear, all along!

The writing flows naturally from the character interactions, which flow from inter-character Chemistry, which flows from what the LIs and the MC like about each other, which flows from what the developer liked about the LIs.

It's already in our blood to design the LIs to be likable-- to design them to bursting with some sort of Appeal. Give them skills and powers that bolster that appeal, then give them flaws and weaknesses that counter-balance those skills and powers.

Give the LIs backgrounds that explain (in ways the audience will find relatable, or at least forgivable,) how they ended up with those flaws and weaknesses. Give them (again, relatable,) long-term goals based on their backgrounds, flaws and weaknesses.

Then give the MC skills and abilities that would let them cover for the LIs' flaws and weaknesses, thus making any particular character pairing a great team.

Give the MC a long-term goal that they can't accomplish without the LIs' strengths and abilities, and weaknesses and character flaws that could ruin everything, if not kept in check.

Now make the Antagonist the polar opposite of the MC, give them goals that conflict with the MC's, and flaws that make them annoying but not vulnerable.

Now it should pretty much write itself. And you can start with the easy part, "who would I like to fuck and why," and everything else sort of crystalizes around it.

Team Power Fantasy gets an action movie plot with a chance of harem ending, and Team Live Vicariously Through The Love Interests gets proper backstories and internally-consistent motivation. But all of that is dependent on the player figuring out how to make the MC overcome their established character flaws.

Cold open, establish stakes, Dan Harmon Story Circle, back-and-forth conflicts, Yes But / No And goal-based plot progression, occasional flashbacks to reveal character motivations, repeat until Crowning Moment of Awesome, Gravity Falls Ending.

Easy... right?

 

[realjitter]

Interesting video. All i can say is that if would make an AVN it would most likely be centered around the "chemistry casino" model. But yeah, that would definitely end up being a total scripting maze and i'd end up getting mad because of it . Haven't seen anything that comes even close to the chemistry casino model yet either. I mean sure, that's mostly because "99"% of all the AVN's simply follow the pure wish fulfillment formula without any real ambitions outside their, sometimes at least, main, overarching story.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Interesting video. All i can say is that if would make an AVN it would most likely be centered around the "chemistry casino" model. But yeah, that would definitely end up being a total scripting maze and i'd end up getting mad because of it . Haven't seen anything that comes even close to the chemistry casino model yet either. I mean sure, that's mostly because "99"% of all the AVN's simply follow the pure wish fulfillment formula without any real ambitions outside their, sometimes at least, main, overarching story.

You sometimes see it on this site made with some of the less commonly used engines. There's technically no reason you couldn't do it in Ren'Py, it's just that the Ren'Py scene is inundated with works that adhere to ADV-style Visual Novel conventions.

An easy way to find some of them is to look for modded versions of games. Not all threads with the mod prefix are fan-made re-releases of games, of course, but some of them are. For the ones that are, click through and see what was changed. If the fan-dev added UI elements to show players the odds or consequences of making a choice, then it's likely that the original, unmodded version of that game was using some variant of the Chemistry Casino, whether the dev realized that's what they were doing or not.

At least... that's true mechanically. The real difference between Fallout 3's speech checks and the Chemistry Casino isn't the mechanics, it's the writer's mental conceptualization of what the "success chance" means in the context of the game world.

TL;DR: It's a writing issue, not a gameplay issue. But once you know the trick, it's trivially easy to write around, even starting from the most base fanservice and working your way backwards to get at the story.

 

[jufot]

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is what I needed to hear, all along!

That was a great video! I talked a lot about LI agency here, and it's really great to see someone more experienced explain it a lot better than I ever could.

For those who can't/won't watch a 30 minute video, the TLDR is that instead of doing this:



You should do this:



Basically, instead of having the player shape their responses to "pay for" an LI, have them shape their character and let the LIs who are attracted to that sort of character come to them.

Obviously, this requires you to make peace with the fact that certain characteristics are mutually exclusive. You can't be kind and an asshole, so if you are going for the LI who values kindness, you are naturally writing yourself off from the LI who is looking for a bad boy. And that's OK, no matter what some F95 cretins might say

 

[TranscendentThots]

You can't be kind and an asshole, so if you are going for the LI who values kindness, you are naturally writing yourself off from the LI who is looking for a bad boy.

Face-turn-heel though?

 

[jufot]

Face-turn-heel though?

Maybe. I don't see how, but maybe.

Fundamentally, I don't think adults can change their character. Their behaviour, sure, but not their character. We are who we are.

So if you were an asshole who attracted LIs looking for bad boys and you suddenly pull a 180 and start being kind and compassionate, why should any LI who values kindness trust you, given your reputation?

 

[TranscendentThots]

Maybe. I don't see how, but maybe.

Fundamentally, I don't think adults can change their character. Their behaviour, sure, but not their character. We are who we are.

So if you were an asshole who attracted LIs looking for bad boys and you suddenly pull a 180 and start being kind and compassionate, why should any LI who values kindness trust you, given your reputation?

"So you're the guy Sarah won't shut up about..."

"Funny, she hasn't mentioned you."

"Cute. I'm going to be honest. I can't get a read on you no matter who I talk to. Brittany says you're fun because you don't take any of her bullshit lying down. Sarah says you're not so bad once people get to know you. Karen thinks she can fix you. Angie thinks you fixed her... I just can't figure you out. What's your deal?"

"My deal's honestly not that complicated. You're just asking the wrong people."

"Oh really? And just who should I be asking?"

"Why, the person who knows me best, of course. But good luck even getting an audience, with that attitude."

"Hey! Come back here!" (Why is he being so mysterious!? )

 

[jufot]

"Hey! Come back here!" (Why is he being so mysterious!? )

That sounds very much like the LI looking for a bad boy

On a more serious note, she should note that the wildly different feedback about the MC is coming from different people, and their opinions are shaped by their characters. So he is not being mysterious, he is simply being liked or disliked by others.

 

[realjitter]

Hmm, but that's not exactly a heel what you're describing. A heel would be like an actual bad person. Someone who gets a kick out of beating up women for example

 

[TranscendentThots]

That sounds very much like the LI looking for a bad boy

On a more serious note, she should note that the wildly different feedback about the MC is coming from different people, and their opinions are shaped by their characters. So he is not being mysterious, he is simply being liked or disliked by others.

Guess it didn't land. That's on me. Let me walk you through what I was trying to do, and maybe you can help me refine it:

The LI he's talking to in this situation actually isn't the one who wants a bad boy. (That's Brittany. The one who'd punch him in the arm and go "Shut UP!" with a big grin on her face after every dickish comment.) No, the first speaker... let's call her Sally... is just super interested in other people. Sally makes it her business to know what everybody else is thinking, at all times, whether they're in her social circle or not. Some would call her nosy. At the start of this exchange, the MC would call her rude. But Sally has been watching the MC's anime protagonist shenanigans play out for a couple of days, now. And frankly, she's starting to get impatient.

So she confronts him. "Congratulations. You're flying below my radar. But everybody likes you, I mean, likes you likes you, and that's weird. So spill it. What's your angle?"

And the MC is like "Slow your roll. If you wanted to know about me, you should have just asked the person who knows me best." (Unspoken: Me.) "But good luck getting an audience with them with that attitude." (Because you're nosy and honestly starting to annoy me.)

This goes over her head. But from her point of view, now he's (inadvertently or not) dangled the carrot that there might be someone who knows all about him she could talk to. Being who she is, Sally's all over that. "Someone here knows the real you? Who? Who!?" But he won't engage. She's missed her chance. Darn. So close!

He's the one guy she can't get a read on, no matter how hard she gossips. And now, he's refusing to let her in. That's infuriating. It's frustrating. It's never happened before!

And she hates to admit it, but it's kind of hot. He's an enigma wrapped inside a sweater, and now she wants to know what his deal is more than ever.

Honestly, it was just the first thing that crossed my mind when I asked myself "What's the worst case scenario if everyone's impressions of him differ?" The answer I came up with was "Oh, right. The local gossip." Maybe I should have explicitly defined her as a gossip first. (I tried to imply it with the first line, but re-reading it, it was probably too subtle. Anyone can know four people.)

 

[TranscendentThots]

Hmm, but that's not exactly a heel what you're describing. A heel would be like an actual bad person. Someone who gets a kick out of beating up women for example

In wrestling terms, I believe what you're describing is "banned for life after punching the referee."

I'm trying to write an MC who's (a little) more complex than they appear on the surface, not a straight-up villain.

 

[jufot]

So she confronts him. "Congratulations. You're flying below my radar. But everybody likes you, I mean, likes you likes you, and that's weird. So spill it. What's your angle?"

Well, not everyone likes him. Certainly not Karen, who wants to "fix him". But ultimately, this is a contrived example. Either all these women have the same character and attraction profiles (in which case why are you writing five LIs when one would do?) or, the guy is some shitty VN protagonist who casually manipulates women by acting differently with each of them. The whole situation reads like it was designed to give Sally a swooning target.

Hmm, on second thought, this would work perfectly if you set this in a posh high school and none of them were above 16

"But good luck getting an audience with them with that attitude."

That sounds like negging, and a smart woman would notice it, especially given his dickish reputation. It could work if Sally is more of an airhead, though.

 

[bacienvu88]

I really like the idea of using chemistry as basis for interactions.

But I do wonder how that would interact with a predefined character that is not a blank slate. I mean, if you are playing as Geralt of Rivia there is just so much you can change the character through your choices and actions. Geralt is still Geralt and it would be weird if Geralt suddenly has the personality of Dandelion.

 

[jufot]

But I do wonder how that would interact with a predefined character that is not a blank slate. I mean, if you are playing as Geralt of Rivia there is just so much you can change the character through your choices and actions. Geralt is still Geralt and it would be weird if Geralt suddenly has the personality of Dandelion.

That's a good point. Geralt doesn't have to be a blank slate because The Witcher sidesteps that issue by having all LIs be broadly the same character. They are all powerful, lone-wolf types who don't have anyone beyond their sisterhood, they are all on the run from oppressive regimes that want to kill them, and they are all attracted to Geralt's brooding machismo. It's why they're completely interchangeable from a story POV.

If you want truly distinct LIs and choose chemistry instead of "Kindness Coins" (as the video calls them), it might be unavoidable to make your MC something closer to a blank slate.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Well, not everyone likes him. Certainly not Karen, who wants to "fix him". But ultimately, this is a contrived example. Either all these women have the same character and attraction profiles (in which case why are you writing five LIs when one would do?) or, the guy is some shitty VN protagonist who casually manipulates women by acting differently with each of them. The whole situation reads like it was designed to give Sally a swooning target.

Hmm, on second thought, this would work perfectly if you set this in a posh high school and none of them were above 16


That sounds like negging, and a smart woman would notice it, especially given his dickish reputation. It could work if Sally is more of an airhead, though.

It is absolutely a contrived example. But that said, I have so many questions...

Why would a woman try to "fix" a flawed guy she wasn't attracted to? How do you know anything about their characters when I've barely mentioned them here? How can they have the same 'attraction profile' if they all saw a different side of the MC, to the point where they describe him differently?

Actually, come to think of it... you can't have it both ways. Either they're all attracted to the same "type," or else he's telling them each what they want to hear. I'd argue that if I do my job right, I can make a case for neither? But how the heck could it be both at the same time!?

The point of the scene was definitely to give Sally a swooning target, so at least that part came through, but the whole reason I used a character like Sally as a focal character was because she was the best vehicle to show (one example of) what might happen if a guy acted differently around different people.

Hmm, on second thought, this would work perfectly if you set this in a posh high school and none of them were above 16

Wait, what? Okay... not gonna lie, this part threw me for a loop. I was prepared to be told that the whole concept was flawed. Or that I wrote them too much like guys. Or that I did not understand women in any meaningful sense. Or that I couldn't write my way out of a paper bag. Those would have been tough to hear, but at least I could understand where you were coming from with them.

But instead, you're telling me that it's actually a perfect treatment, but only for rich 16 year olds?

What on earth happens when they turn 17? And why can't everybody else afford it?

That sounds like negging, and a smart woman would notice it, especially given his dickish reputation. It could work if Sally is more of an airhead, though.

I'm starting to think I may not know what negging is. I thought I did, but maybe I was wrong. Does negging require intent? I was under the impression that negging was a deliberate PUA technique used to make women feel insecure as part of some sort of tactical game that shouldn't be offensive if the pro-PUA crowd is right, and shouldn't get results if the anti-PUA crowd is right.

I'll admit that I was ambiguous about the MC's intent, and maybe that's something that I need to work on. But it sort of feels like you're adding a bunch of loaded context that's not part of the text.

His reputation isn't that he's dickish. His reputation is that it depends on who you ask. Is that supposed to be a red flag in real life? I figured it would only ring as especially weird to someone who digs deeply into other peoples' relationships.

What about this meme format?



Is that weird? Is it an unreasonable take? Does it not make sense to you that one person doing one job could be percieved differently by different people in their life? Or could this same principle apply more generally to how a person talks or acts around different people?

If a woman annoys me, and I respond with something catty or insulting, is that de-facto negging? If I make a joke and it goes over a woman's head, and I don't immediately correct her, is that de-facto gaslighting? What about if I do the same thing, but to a man? These aren't rhetorical questions. I genuinely do not understand, and would like to learn more. Maybe these terms don't mean what I thought they mean. Post links to articles or wiki pages or whatever if you got 'em.

I was trying to write infatuation and petty drama, not grooming.

Maybe the problem is I'm just a jerk, so i have no idea how to write non-jerks? But... no, if that were it, surely the women would read as jerks, too. It would read like Total Drama Island, or something. The audience would be rooting against all of them.

I sincerely can't tell how unreasonable I'm being, here.

Anyway, thank you for your feedback! I hope I can learn from it.

 

[TranscendentThots]

If you want truly distinct LIs and choose chemistry instead of "Kindness Coins" (as the video calls them), it might be unavoidable to make your MC something closer to a blank slate.

Look... bare minimum, just give the MC one trait per LI that is basically a little wrapped present for them, specifically. MC plays Bass because LI1 plays Lead Guitar. MC can cook because LI2 is a foodie. MC lives in a studio apartment renovated from an old church because LI3 is into architecture, and so on. Sure, the MC will end up being an eclectic mishmash of disparate skills and interests, but if you just throw a few blind spots in there as flaws, and make them come up a few times for comedy's sake, the MC will at least read as quirky and maybe even a little bit complex. Not a blank slate, and not some kinda ubermensch Renaissance Man who's Good At Everything.

Again, I freely admit that this is contrived. It's contrived to solve a very specific set of problems in a certain order that makes them easier for me, specifically, to solve. Because I am a hack. But I think it will work.

Even F95Zone's most self-indulgent dudebros aren't going to say "I can't relate to this dude, he knows how to make sticky rice."

(And before you say it, the MC isn't pretending to play Bass so they can get laid in this example. They actually already knew how to play it before the events of the story. The MC isn't manipulating things so they can have three girlfriends. I am. That's kind of what writing is. A big pile of contrivances and careful design decisions. I'm just trying to work out a method to do my contrivances in a way that's slightly less shit.)

Sorry. I'm getting defensive and I don't really know why. I'm going to try and edit these posts to be a little less emotionally loaded. Frankly, if I'm going to do this, I need to have thicker skin than this.

 

[jufot]

Phew! Alright, let's tackle this.

Why would a woman try to "fix" a flawed guy she wasn't attracted to? How do you know anything about their characters when I've barely mentioned them here? How can they have the same 'attraction profile' if they all saw a different side of the MC, to the point where they describe him differently?

The first one is my bad, I think I misread the situation. For the rest, I don't think it's plausible that a man can have half a dozen distinct 'sides' that attract half a dozen distinct women, who all see a different side, resulting in Sally's confusion. That's what I mean by contrived.

But instead, you're telling me that it's actually a perfect treatment, but only for rich 16 year olds? What on earth happens when they turn 17? And why can't everybody else afford it?

No no no, that's not what I meant at all. I was alluding to the idea that this setup and the behaviour of the characters sounded very juvenile and gossipy, and I could see it happen in a school full of rich and bored teenagers.

I was under the impression that negging was a deliberate PUA technique used to make women feel insecure

It is. "But good luck getting an audience with them with that attitude" reads like "I wouldn't normally give the time of day to someone like you. Consider yourself lucky I'm even talking to you" which is very much negging in my book, since she is an LI that MC is interested in.

I'll admit that I was ambiguous about the MC's intent, and maybe that's something that I need to work on. But it sort of feels like you're adding a bunch of loaded context that's not part of the text.

Of course I am I have my own biases and lived experience like everyone else, and my perception is coloured by them.

Maybe the problem is I'm just a jerk, so i have no idea how to write non-jerks? But... no, if that were it, surely the women would read as jerks, too. It would read like Total Drama Island, or something. The audience would be rooting against all of them.

I sincerely can't tell how unreasonable I'm being, here.

Well, now I think you are the one adding a bunch of loaded context You're not being unreasonable, and I don't think you are jerk at all. It's just that, to me, your particular example didn't read like a good example of chemistry as it felt too contrived. Others will feel differently.

Look... bare minimum, just give the MC one trait per LI that is basically a little wrapped present for them, specifically. [...] I freely admit that this is contrived. It's contrived to solve a very specific set of problems in a certain order that makes them easier for me, specifically to solve. [...] But I think it will work.

Now this I agree with! Those specific examples actually work for me because they are not his character, just his skills and interests. Or rather, they are what he does, not who he is.

 

[thanks for the demos]

The woes of written expression. 5~10 min to think about an interesting question, 40+ min to write it out and keep it semi-readable and coherent for someone who doesn't live in your head. All while the conversation already moved on and makes many of my examples redundant

I asked myself "What's the worst case scenario if everyone's impressions of him differ?" The answer I came up with was "Oh, right. The local gossip."

The first thing that crossed my mind when you said 'worst case scenario' was: PC appearing as an unauthentic, all-things-to-all-people poser, LIs losing respect/interest or at the least putting PC firmly from the 'romantic interest' into the Fuckboi category (assuming the person in question is written to be somewhat intelligent/socially competent/self-confident and the PC is physically attractive).

I really like the idea of using chemistry as basis for interactions.

But I do wonder how that would interact with a predefined character that is not a blank slate. I mean, if you are playing as Geralt of Rivia there is just so much you can change the character through your choices and actions. Geralt is still Geralt and it would be weird if Geralt suddenly has the personality of Dandelion.

A relatively long and varied RPG with well-defined/established characters is one of the few cases I'd imagine a Cemistry Casino to actually work well (as opposed to most AVNs, where romance is the focus of the game and randomness is more likely to ruin player experience for a part of the playerbase).

With an established character some level of attraction or 'attraction vectors' are already written into the PC and their potential LIs (making those romances already more realistic than most blank-slate self-insert titles). Also, not every attractive companion is a LI for the PC, nor would you expect them to be.

Companions have the chance to observe the PC over a long timeframe, so any individual bad roll can be made up for with consistence. Travelling with the PC means many chances to observe both how they act towards them / other companions / make unrelated choices in their presence, showcase their character via flavour/rp choices, etc - all of which can be perceived as attractive / neutral / repulsive by different LIs and - more importantly - weighted differently depending on LIs personality.
(which is one point of feedback re: GDC talk - the vectors should be different sizes to indicate different people value different kinds of 'attractive behaviour/traits' differently)

Player agency (pursuing a LI) would come down more to whom players prioritize: who has a permanent slot in the party, rather than a ride for their usefulness in a given situation? who gets healed first if the party is close to wiping and there is no designated tank? who gets (the desired kind and extend of) attention during downtime, how does the PC re/act when the LI decides to reciprocate their attention.

All without always guaranteeing the expected/hoped for result, but still keeping it somewhat manageable. Again, consistency.
If there is randomness and none of those things have a huge impact in isolation, but a noticable impact in aggregate - one could feasibly encourage players to RP and discourage degenerate behaviour (min/maxer flipflop, savescumming, etc).

I'd imagine most of that to be much harder in AVNs, where you'd want to keep choices meaningful (fewer rolls = higher RNG swing), there is a cost to adding personality variables and branching paths/responses and the difference between actions and dialogue (from a player perspective) is less pronounced - both are picking a choice from a menu.

Also, in the example of the Witcher romance is a relatively minor part of the game, sex is in many cases actually transactional (fits the coin model) and the number of fleshed-out-chacater love interests (rather than minor sexual conquests) is low
(as well as the degree to which they are actually fleshed out, though I'd still argue they did well offering appealing archetypes that fit the scenario).


Apology for the rambling, hopefully this still makes for a decent answer / datapoint. Cheers

 

[TranscendentThots]

It is. "But good luck getting an audience with them with that attitude" reads like "I wouldn't normally give the time of day to someone like you. Consider yourself lucky I'm even talking to you" which is very much negging in my book, since she is an LI that MC is interested in.

Ah! I see it now. Yeah... I think maybe... in my mind, this exchange was happening at a point in the story where the MC doesn't like Sally yet? Like maybe Sally would end up revealing a different side of herself to the MC later, when and if the player starts exploring her path? I'm actually not sure.

When I pants, I tend to pants with banter. It's easy to write, and it breeds conflict that's a little ego-heavy but not too serious, and it usually drips with personality. (Of course, the downside is, if I don't occasionally stop and remind myself who each character is, it can end up being Kevin Smith's personality.)

Now this I agree with! Those specific examples actually work for me because they are not his character, just his skills and interests. Or rather, they are what he does, not who he is.

That sounds like it might be an important distinction for me to remember for later. Can you give me any counterexamples of traits I definitely shouldn't try to use in this way?

It's bad if Brittany is into bad boys and Sarah is into nice guys and MC is nice around Sarah and mean around Brittany? But it's good if Brittany likes his tattoo and Sarah likes his pet sugar glider?

But isn't "telling a rude joke" in Brittany's presence something that he did, not something that he was? What if he just has enough self-awareness not to make the same joke around Sarah, because he expects Sarah would be offended? Aren't our reputations basically just other peoples' interpretations of us, not something intrinsic to our minds? Are we our thoughts, our words, our actions, or our consequences?

We all have things that we don't share with everybody. (Your mom, your boss, your barber, your dentist and your high school math teacher probably don't all know you visit F95Zone, to pick a needlessly hyperbolic example.) Maybe the trick is to focus more on things they think are cool about the MC, and not conclusions they derive about the MC based on those things. Even just saying "Brittany says you don't take her bullshit" implies that Brittany's interpretation is canon. I see that now. Hmmm...