Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

Thanks for that.

I will say, this is in many ways, a story in two halves.

That's at least been my intention this whole time, and what I've been working towards since the beginning. It's probable I could have done things a bit differently (And if I started over, I would do a few things differently.... but honestly not a ton), and there may have been better ways to go about it

Noping, that's an entirely valid choice... I understand what you're doing with your MC. It might not be the smartest commercial choice for your game, but it has me hooked.

Frankly, what you're doing with the MC rings very true to me. My life partner first encountered me at my lowest point, following a horrible tragedy. I was certainly a mess... totally dead/staggered inside and drifting aimlessly like your MC. She ended up giving me 'a cause and a country,' as it were, and brought me back to life.

 

[Tlaero]

I'm back from the other side of the blue marble... and from a bit of off-grid time.

Welcome back, Raife!

Tlaero

 

[Raife]

Baldur's Gate is a good example!

I don't think most players would tolerate that sort of difficulty in AVNs, though. Even BG2 had mods to remove reputation requirements because a lot of people found it tedious.

Well, I got her there without mods or punching peasants (jufot, you brutish pleb chucker!) and it was fucking difficult... which is actually a fairly realistic take on a relationship for a game. People don't just change because of their partners... but, with time, they _can_ become more like each other.

 

[realjitter]

One of my favourite romances in games is also one of the earliest: the Viconia romance in BG2.

Funny that you bring up BG2 & Viconia since its' also my favourite video game romance. Which is saying something because i'm more of a gameplay guy than a story guy. I usually don't care for video game stories. But this one was different. Surprisingly well written and nuanced and also unpredictable with a pretty tragic ending in TOB on top of it .


Viconia

I am a creature of dark lusts you fool! Why are you not
disgusted by this?! Turn away from me, spit on me and curse my
name I command you!

 

[TranscendentThots]

Thanks for that.

I will say, this is in many ways, a story in two halves.

On the one side, you have Erin who is very much the central character. Something that was incredibly important to me to do (and at least try to do correctly) was for her to be the one to end things (except of course in one of those two endings....) and her... I guess the best way to phrase it would be cold, emotionless acceptance of the situation.

On the other side of it all, you have the MC. Now while not everyone will agree with the choice, and I fully understand why, now I hope you understand at least *why* I chose to have the MC so undeveloped this entire time. Yea on the one hand I get that people will feel less of a connection to the MC, but at least my intention is that he has been... driveless, completely devoid of purpose or desire or really much of anything, and that has been the other side of the story. The MC just sort of going with whatever happened, in desperate need of... something to break him out of his stupor. (I didn't choose the name of the game by accident!). Whether or not events of CH6 were enough, remains to be seen, but my intention has been to try and portray someone who has been for the most part, completely empty. Not someone depressed, or sad, or anything like that. Not someone struggling, or with any real particular hardships or obstacles to overcome, but just someone... empty. Devoid of much of anything. No real emotion, no drive, no goals, nothing of substance, just someone who happens to exist, and not much more. Someone who needs to learn what life really is...... who needs to learn what it really is, to be alive. (Hey there it is!)

That's at least been my intention this whole time, and what I've been working towards since the beginning. It's probable I could have done things a bit differently (And if I started over, I would do a few things differently.... but honestly not a ton), and there may have been better ways to go about it - I won't claim to be the best writer around - but I've always been working towards very specific goals, trying to accomplish them as best I can. In a few months I guess we'll see how successful I really was at that, as a whole.

So it's a game about depression?

 

[noping123]

So it's a game about depression?

no.

 

[Dragon59]

My experience is that a large number of men who play these games want themselves to be different than what women (or at least this one) want. A frequent complaint about my games is that the MCs are "weak" even though I explicitly write them as what I consider to be strong, often overly so.

After more than a decade of having that conversation over and over again with each game I release, I've come to the conclusion that some (most?) men want to be seen as action movie heroes (physically strong fighters). At the same time, some (most?) women don't care about that. We want our men to be emotionally strong and able to support us through our insecurities and struggles.

I see a number of young men who have bought into the Alpha Male myth. As such, they seem to be trying to gain male respect rather than that of women. Look at how many label men who care more for the perception and attention of women: "Simps." As such, many only want to play (insert themselves into) characters that fit their idea of "Alpha." To do otherwise exposes them to "beta behaviors," "beta influences." As if having another male NPC talk to a potential LI, as if having two LIs kiss, would somehow undermine their "Alphaness."

Of course, there are a lot more men than women playing these games. So, if you're doing this for financial reasons, you're better off making your MCs be what men want.

Tlaero

Definitely what men want, what men feel gets the adoration of other males.

I tend to see this Alpha Myth believe to be not unlike Objectivism. I see similar attributes.

That is the unfortunate side effect of economics and demographics.
I'm writing stories that jives with my own sensibilities and life experiences. If that means I will be less successful, so be it. I see this as art as much as a product. I have to believe that there will be enough people who will appreciate my vision, my passion, even if it is "just" women and old dudes.

That said, I hope you feel you have the freedom to express your passion.

 

[boobsrcool]

That is the unfortunate side effect of economics and demographics.

uh oh lol

 

[Tlaero]

That said, I hope you feel you have the freedom to express your passion.

Sure, _I_ do, but I'm a professional software engineer. The money only matters to me in that it pays Mortze's rent. I'm perfectly free to write the games that I want to write.

Tlaero

 

[EndlessNights]

Sure, _I_ do, but I'm a professional software engineer. The money only matters to me in that it pays Mortze's rent. I'm perfectly free to write the games that I want to write.

You still face social pressure and the weight of public opinion. I think that often affects devs (and artists in general) just as much if not more than monetary pressure. The loudest voices are often the most critical ones, and any deviation from the expected norm seems to run the risk of starting a firestorm. It's astonished me how many people have commented negatively about Toro 7 not using script style dialogue. Like, is that really something that negatively affects your experience as a player? Is one game being written in a slightly different way compared to standard VNs (but in an incredibly familiar way if you ever read fiction) really something that's even worth complaining about?

I'm sure you'll get a lot of interesting feedback if you end up writing that "multiple MCs compete for the same LI" scenario you mentioned before. Absolutely no one outside of this thread is expecting double NTR from Tlaero. That's kind of a reason to do it in my opinion, but you'd have to deal with the ensuing fallout and I totally get why you might decide it's not worth it all things considered.

 

[EndlessNights]

I see a number of young men who have bought into the Alpha Male myth. As such, they seem to be trying to gain male respect rather than that of women. Look at how many label men who care more for the perception and attention of women: "Simps." As such, many only want to play (insert themselves into) characters that fit their idea of "Alpha." To do otherwise exposes them to "beta behaviors," "beta influences." As if having another male NPC talk to a potential LI, as if having two LIs kiss, would somehow undermine their "Alphaness."

I think both the alpha and beta males in your scenario are vying for the attention of women, just in different ways. The alphas are trying to embody a set of qualities (let's call it "being an asshole" for simplicity's sake) they think that women are attracted to on some primordial, unconscious level. The betas are taking more of a "kindness coins" approach using the parlance of Michelle Clough: they're trying to exchange kind acts and attention for affection. I'm not sure either necessarily values the women they pursue as human beings and individuals.

Rather than an alpha MC or a beta MC, I'd personally prefer to play MCs who aren't defined by seduction strategies. I'd rather have an MC who has his or her own personality, personal philosophy, and morality that other characters will either be attracted to or repelled by. Instead of MCs tailoring themselves to fit what their LIs want, we could have MCs who more or less accept themselves as they are and expect the people who love them to do the same.

I think what's missing the most in AVNs are characters who just aren't interested in the MC for whatever reason and never will be. Maybe there's an insurmountable personality clash. Not everyone who takes an instant dislike for an MC needs to be a tsundere -- they could just hate his or her guts. Maybe their moral values are so far apart that they cannot even understand other's basic motivations. Maybe they just don't like how he dresses or how she talks. Having characters like that would improve realism and also make the characters who are genuinely interested in the MC stand out more as unique individuals.

I also think would be potentially really interesting to see how MCs handle rejection. Will they try to befriend the uninterested characters? If the chasm is too wide, even friendship might not be possible...perhaps congenial coexistence would be, though. Will they avoid and ignore them? Will they go full incel and start ranting and raging at them? (If so, I have a pretty good idea of who that MC will end up facing at his next job interview).

 

[bacienvu88]

Instead of MCs tailoring themselves to fit what their LIs want, we could have MCs who more or less accept themselves as they are and expect the people who love them to do the same.

As I see it there are Player Agency, MC Agency and NPC Agency. And these conflict with each other. The more Agency the MC has, the less the Player (although not absolutely necessarily*) and the NPC:s have. And the same for the others.

(*) If instead of "playing" the MC we get to play more of a director role. For example: MC peeks into the shower at his sister what happens next? (a) Sister discovers MC and is outraged (b) Sister discovers MC and invites him in (c) Mother discovers MC and is outraged (d) Mother joins MC in peeking at sister

I think what's missing the most in AVNs are characters who just aren't interested in the MC for whatever reason and never will be.

So much this!

I also think would be potentially really interesting to see how MCs handle rejection. Will they try to befriend the uninterested characters? If the chasm is too wide, even friendship might not be possible...perhaps congenial coexistence would be, though. Will they avoid and ignore them? Will they go full incel and start ranting and raging at them? (If so, I have a pretty good idea of who that MC will end up facing at his next job interview).

Well, there are a number of MC:s that start the story having gone full hermit mode for months/years due to being rejected / gf cheating / gf disappeared and so on.

Another interesting character would be someone that pretends to like MC for whatever reason. Although gold diggers are common in VN:s they are always outed as such within the first scene and generally won't be interested in MC anyway.

 

[kotte]

Rather than an alpha MC or a beta MC, I'd personally prefer to play MCs who aren't defined by seduction strategies. I'd rather have an MC who has his or her own personality, personal philosophy, and morality that other characters will either be attracted to or repelled by. Instead of MCs tailoring themselves to fit what their LIs want, we could have MCs who more or less accept themselves as they are and expect the people who love them to do the same.

As I see it there are Player Agency, MC Agency and NPC Agency. And these conflict with each other. The more Agency the MC has, the less the Player (although not absolutely necessarily*) and the NPC:s have. And the same for the others.

I think this is really interesting, and thinking about this is necessary if you want games that can compete with "real" novels storywise. With characters and story makes sense, compared to your experiences from the real world (note; I did not say "realistic", I can totally buy the need for escapism and fantasies).

But how can one fit the gaming mechanics into this? Giving the player options, but still maintain a sense of having MC's and NPC's with Agency?

 

[TranscendentThots]

But how can one fit the gaming mechanics into this? Giving the player options, but still maintain a sense of having MC's and NPC's with Agency?

By designing mechanics (and therefore, routes, outcomes and choices) around MC and LI goals, rather than Player preferences.

This is honestly something that the Japanese visual novel industry solved through trial and error a decade before western indie devs started trying to do it. Then it became formulaic in Japan, while a lot of the small details didn't translate to foreign audiences like the U.S. Just write good books and put choices and titties in them!

In a sense, the western scene is almost handicapped by the ready availability of game industry insight and wisdom on youtube.

 

[desmosome]

Since we are talkin about BG2 romance... what about Pathfinder WotR? Camellia is helpful, is she not?

 

[bacienvu88]

Welcome back! Alas, no newfound college appreciation on my end, but the thread has been interesting. TranscendentThots' introduction to VN harems resulted in the biggest deconstruction of the genre these forums have ever seen. It's seriously long, and difficult to follow at times yet still quite fascinating.

I read through / skimmed the harem discussions now. Very interesting stuff. It made me think about why I most often choose the harem route when such exists. I came up with the following reasons:

• I'm a completionist. LI:s are more or less collectibles. Thus all LI:s need to be collected. Yeah, I know obsessively completing everything in each playthrough is pretty stupid, but it is a hard habit to break for me.
• Intent of the author. Some games are really meant to be played as a harem and you only get missing content if you only choose one woman. Eternum is a prime example of this.
• Most often solving an LI:s problems is linked to becoming their girlfriend. And it feels wrong to not help out an LI.
• Laziness, because I don't want to do multiple playthroughs if I can avoid it.

I can also note that I'm not bothered by a harem very much because I think the underlying problem is that there are a bunch of LI:s that will fall for the MC if we choose the right options. Adding a harem on top of that detracts very little.

 

[TranscendentThots]

I can also note that I'm not bothered by a harem very much because I think the underlying problem is that there are a bunch of LI:s that will fall for the MC if we choose the right options. Adding a harem on top of that detracts very little.

That's a take I wasn't entirely expecting. Can I ask why that's a problem?

And how do you suppose we should fix it?

• Add NPCs who aren't LIs?
• Remove LIs from the game until there's only one or possibly 2 people in the whole setting who cany the MC?
• Actively prevent the LIs from falling for the MC? (But wouldn't they just be NPCs, then?)
• Make the player jump through mechanical hoops that require either actually understanding the LIs as individual people or else consulting a walkthrough? (But then, isn't the player de facto "manipulating" the LIs by telling them what they wanna hear?)

A story about an MC and a bunch of women who aren't that into him is just a creep simulator.

 

[Hildegardt]

• I'm a completionist. LI:s are more or less collectibles. Thus all LI:s need to be collected. Yeah, I know obsessively completing everything in each playthrough is pretty stupid, but it is a hard habit to break for me.
• Intent of the author. Some games are really meant to be played as a harem and you only get missing content if you only choose one woman. Eternum is a prime example of this.
• Most often solving an LI:s problems is linked to becoming their girlfriend. And it feels wrong to not help out an LI.
• Laziness, because I don't want to do multiple playthroughs if I can avoid it.

I can't speak for the others, but I'm under the impression that the games you're describing aren't really the ones getting discussed in this thread. I don't think the discussion was about whether or not harem games could ever be enjoyed by anyone ever, but rather if and how they could fit the preferences listed in this thread.
For example just the notion that the LIs are more or less collectibles would disqualify a game imo, because it pretty much shits on any semblance of immersion and good character writing. But I'm personally rather single-minded on the issue and feel like especially games with otherwise good stories are made worse by including a harem. The more immersive a story is, the more out of place a harem would be for me.

My takeaway from the discussion was that it very quickly turned into "How can I make a harem work?", which kind of defeats the purpose imo. Because there are already countless examples of making a harem work, it's just that some people (like me) wouldn't qualify them as "story first games".
I think that any lifestyle that's different from most people's lived experience can make for an interesting story. People mentioned actual historical harems for example, but I think it works for any fetish, not just harem. The problem is that it very quickly turns into a cheap trope, when a fetish is the subject of a story. Imagine a story about BDSM, where every single character is into getting whipped for some reason. It's unimmersive.

 

[TranscendentThots]

To be fair, I think bacienvu88 was talking about completionism as something they bring to their gameplay experiences, not something designed by the developer.

 

[Raife]

I'd love to play that game. The key for me is that the harem is not there to be enjoyed, but to be deconstructed, literally.

I'm with jufot. I _hate_ harem games with a passion: they eliminate risk for the player, they tend to destroy the integrity of the characters of the LIs, and they usually say something a bit odd about the MC. Finally, and most importantly, they often undermine the realism of the story, if it is set in a universe like ours. (Let me be clear... I am NOT making a judgment about poly relationships... and almost all harem games are not written as poly relationships, anyway.)

It's quite clear why people like harem games, and I think Transcendent's ideas on writing better harem games are solid. But... I still won't be playing those games. Why? Personal taste:

• I love hard games and don't mind failing many, many times in pursuit of a difficult goal or LI. Like many of you, I'm a completionist, but with a really, really long attention span if a game is well-written.
• I really like women, particularly strong, determined, 'challenging' women... the kind of female LIs who would never join a harem for any male MC, under any circumstances.
• Emotional pain and difficult choices are catnip to me... life is full of difficult choices, or easy choices that can have disastrous consequences. I want to make them and feel the consequences in the games that I play.
• Cheating games are great -- but only when the cheating has a price or creates real risk. Harem games eliminate the risk.
• Harem games tend to be badly written or implausible. But... even if there were a well-written harem game, I probably wouldn't enjoy it, because of points 1-4.

I _have_ enjoyed a few games that have 'mini-harem' endings: i.e. where you can end up with LI X, or LI Y, or LIs A+B, but NOT ABXY. That's probably because those mini harems actually have believable poly dynamics among the small group, which doesn't undermine the characters of the LIs or kill plausibility.

So... I'm all in favour of better harem games, but they're not for me.