Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

Sure, _I_ do, but I'm a professional software engineer. The money only matters to me in that it pays Mortze's rent. I'm perfectly free to write the games that I want to write.

I, for one, will continue contributing to Mortze's rent indefinitely.

Noting your highly remunerative job: if we did a demographic profile of the regulars on jufot's thread and compared it to the norm on F95 it would be hilarious.

One of my theories of the case, when jufot started this thread, was that while those of us who love story-first games are a tiny niche group on F95, we tend to be disproportionately influential as Patreon/Subscribestar backers. That would allow us to encourage more story-first devs if we clubbed together. jufot's threat has enabled that, among other positive things.

 

[TranscendentThots]

I, for one, will continue contributing to Mortze's rent indefinitely.

Noting your highly remunerative job: if we did a demographic profile of the regulars on jufot's thread and compared it to the norm on F95 it would be hilarious.

One of my theories of the case, when jufot started this thread, was that while those of us who love story-first games are a tiny niche group on F95, we tend to be disproportionately influential as Patreon/Subscribestar backers. That would allow us to encourage more story-first devs if we clubbed together. jufot's threat has enabled that, among other positive things.

I wonder if that's necessarily true, though? I seem to recall that Breeding Season opened the Patreon floodgates, and Summertime Saga started as a non-sexual game until fans demanded an incest plotline. How many hundred "$1/month but only if there's an update" fair weather fans are you personally each prepared to outspend? And how many games can you fund simultaneously at that level before you have to decide which ones to let go?

For devs, it's not even a question of whether they want to make a niche game or a mass-market game. All indie games are niche games. It's more a question of what content they can keep producing at a steady rate, and what sort of audience congeals around said content.

For that matter, even assuming you guys could single-handedly outspend... say, Being a DIK's core audience, do you think the developer is capable of rising to your standards, even given sufficient financial compensation?

I've been hurling my brain headlong at the possibility space all this time, with the hope that my own self-indulgent wish fulfillment can simply be written better. But what if that's not the case?

What if it's not actually "better writing" you've been trying to find, all this time, but simply "different genres?"

Either way, I'm glad that someone's helping Mortze keep the lights on.

 

[Raife]

I wonder if that's necessarily true, though? I seem to recall that Breeding Season opened the Patreon floodgates, and Summertime Saga started as a non-sexual game until fans demanded an incest plotline. How many hundred "$1/month but only if there's an update" fair weather fans are you personally each prepared to outspend? And how many games can you fund simultaneously at that level before you have to decide which ones to let go?

Of course you're right: 10K X $1 per month will beat one 50 buck contribution every time. There's no way that we have the heft to influence the mass market for games on this site. (That was never jufot's objective, anyway.)

But when we target new devs, who are making an initial foray into story-first games, we can give them an initial lift and morale boost that keeps them going. There are also a couple of long suffering story-first devs, plugging away on really unique and challenging plotlines, which the folks on this thread have kept going.

 

[Raife]

What if it's not actually "better writing" you've been trying to find, all this time, but simply "different genres?"

No, we are looking for better writing... IN games that privilege narrative integrity over porny tropes, regardless of genre (the aim of the thread).

There is good writing in very porny games on this site, some of those games are excellent, and I enjoy them. But that's not what this thread is for.

 

[bacienvu88]

That's a take I wasn't entirely expecting. Can I ask why that's a problem?

And how do you suppose we should fix it?

• Add NPCs who aren't LIs?
• Remove LIs from the game until there's only one or possibly 2 people in the whole setting who cany the MC?
• Actively prevent the LIs from falling for the MC? (But wouldn't they just be NPCs, then?)
• Make the player jump through mechanical hoops that require either actually understanding the LIs as individual people or else consulting a walkthrough? (But then, isn't the player de facto "manipulating" the LIs by telling them what they wanna hear?)

A story about an MC and a bunch of women who aren't that into him is just a creep simulator.

Partly this is about the very premise of most VN:s (and in particular VN:s with harem paths): MC is going to meet a bunch of women who are going to fall in love with MC as long as he isn't too moronic. All he has to do is to choose which of the women he wants.
The other part is about chemistry that we talked about earlier.
And in the end is about agency. The player is supposed to be able to choose which of the women they want which limits the NPC agency because there *must* be a path where MC gets the woman / women he chose. That the NPC want MC is a foregone conclusion.
EDIT: The point here is that the MC can get all LI:s and the main difference with a harem path is if it is in the same playthrough or not.

I can't speak for the others, but I'm under the impression that the games you're describing aren't really the ones getting discussed in this thread. I don't think the discussion was about whether or not harem games could ever be enjoyed by anyone ever, but rather if and how they could fit the preferences listed in this thread.

I took the discussion in a different direction, yes. Because I think in order to improve harem games you need to understand why people like them / choose to play them in the first place. To make an analogy: If you ask an NTR-hater how to improve an NTR-game the answer is always going to be "remove it". In the same vein the discussion here mostly revolve around doing something else than what the harem game players actually want.

I'm with jufot. I _hate_ harem games with a passion: they eliminate risk for the player

I don't see how having a harem path changes risk at all for the player? If anything it should be more difficult to achieve than a single route. Can you expand on this?

Also I don't see any risk in any VN at all. If I just read a walkthrough guess the authors intentions corretly, MC will get the women the player has chosen for him.

I agree to most of your other points.

 

[bacienvu88]

For example just the notion that the LIs are more or less collectibles would disqualify a game imo, because it pretty much shits on any semblance of immersion and good character writing.

Well, strictly speaking it is not actually the LIs that are collectible, it is story paths that are collectible. "Have you got all different endings?" But in VN:s that includes different endings usually includes different LIs, which makes LIs a collectible as well.

I mean you can ignore the collectibility and just do one playthrough to get a single story path. But that doesn't invalidate the collectibility of it.

 

[jufot]

I don't see how having a harem path changes risk at all for the player? If anything it should be more difficult to achieve than a single route. Can you expand on this?

Harem is the safe space of VNs. There are no threats, no competition, no challenges. You spend Kindness Coins on women who all think yours is the only dick on the planet for them, and once you deposit enough coins they join your big happy orgy in heaven. None of it is difficult.

Raife mentioned Baldur's Gate 2 above, which was a great example of the opposite. In that game, Viconia is a really, really bad match for you. She's always short with you and hates every good thing you do, and actually tries to dissuade you from pursuing her. You have to walk a very tightrope through the entire game to effect the slightest change in her. That's the difficulty. The risk is that, the things that attract her are also the things that push away others. You have to pick your battles, and you can't have everything.

There is no reason VNs couldn't do that. But a harem fuckfest is anathema to that kind of immersive story.

 

[Raife]

I don't see how having a harem path changes risk at all for the player? If anything it should be more difficult to achieve than a single route. Can you expand on this?

Also I don't see any risk in any VN at all. If I just read a walkthrough guess the authors intentions corretly, MC will get the women the player has chosen for him.

I agree to most of your other points.

In a really good VN (or a proper novel), if you're deeply in to the role-playing and story it creates an emotional investment. If the MC hurts one of the LIs (or himself/herself) by betraying them or choosing another, that betrayal should sting. There can and should be negative consequences in the story that carry weight.

In real life, even successful relationships involve effort, emotional commitment and exposure, and hurt sometimes. That comes with the territory. All the best art explores those things... harems leave all of that out. Hence, in my view, they just don't resonate true to life, because they eliminate the emotional risks involved in relationships. Play your cards right and the LIs just all happily fall in your lap.

That's what I mean by 'risk' or a lack thereof.

For a great example, play this game through the section where the MC's partner asks him to take an emotional risk. That section is in a good playthrough... there's no way to play for a better outcome or buy her off with kindness coins. She asks the MC to give her time, to trust her, to take the risk of losing her.

That rang true to me. That's art that is incompatible with a harem game.

 

[Jaike]

Partly this is about the very premise of most VN:s (and in particular VN:s with harem paths): MC is going to meet a bunch of women who are going to fall in love with MC as long as he isn't too moronic enough.

Fixed that.

Harem is the safe space of VNs. There are no threats, no competition, no challenges. You spend Kindness Coins on women who all think yours is the only dick on the planet for them, and once you deposit enough coins they join your big happy orgy in heaven. None of it is difficult.

I think that describes the state of the supply well, but it's not really a hard restriction of the genre. You could write a harem story where the harem path creates extra drama and failure points, opportunities for game over. Like I remember a harem-ish game where the LIs at one point beg the MC to stop adding more women to her "harem". It's not hard to take that as a base, it wasn't a very subtle game, and have 0 failure points on the mono routes, 2 on the truple routes and 16 on the 5 LI harem route. But I concede that's clearly not what the genre's audience wants. So the reasonable question is "why bother?" of course.

I'd also argue that if the game forms the harem by cheating, it makes no sense if it has no extra failure points.

edit:

For the record: I'm not a fan of harem games. But I tolerate them without problem. And sometimes I think it is better. I prefer a harem ending to games that does mostly everything the same as a harem game but ends with "select the girl you want and ditch the rest".

Is the issue for you that it all comes down to one choice in those games, instead of a series of choices that push the MC away from some potential LIs but toward some/one until only one is left? So the complete decision is concentrated in one click, while all the potential LIs are lined up hogtied with an apple in their mouth ?

 

[bacienvu88]

Harem is the safe space of VNs. There are no threats, no competition, no challenges. You spend Kindness Coins on women who all think yours is the only dick on the planet for them, and once you deposit enough coins they join your big happy orgy in heaven. None of it is difficult.

Which non-harem VN:s does not work like spending Kindess Coins on women so you get them in the end?

Raife mentioned Baldur's Gate 2 above, which was a great example of the opposite. In that game, Viconia is a really, really bad match for you. She's always short with you and hates every good thing you do, and actually tries to dissuade you from pursuing her. You have to walk a very tightrope through the entire game to effect the slightest change in her. That's the difficulty. The risk is that, the things that attract her are also the things that push away others. You have to pick your battles, and you can't have everything.

I don't remember enough of BG2 to comment on Viconia. I likely never did a Viconia-playthrough since if I remember correctly I got tired of it after one playthrough.

There is no reason VNs couldn't do that. But a harem fuckfest is anathema to that kind of immersive story.

Of course VNs can do that. In BG2 it works because the romances there has no impact on the story. And you can of course do the same in a VN. But would you really think a VN is good where the romances with the LI:s are completely divorced from the over-arching story?

For the record: I'm not a fan of harem games. But I tolerate them without problem. And sometimes I think it is better. I prefer a harem ending to games that does mostly everything the same as a harem game but ends with "select the girl you want and ditch the rest".

 

[bacienvu88]

In a really good VN (or a proper novel), if you're deeply in to the role-playing and story it creates an emotional investment. If the MC hurts one of the LIs (or himself/herself) by betraying them or choosing another, that betrayal should sting. There can and should be negative consequences in the story that carry weight.


In real life, even successful relationships involve effort, emotional commitment and exposure, and hurt sometimes. That comes with the territory. All the best art explores those things... harems leave all of that out. Hence, in my view, they just don't resonate true to life, because they eliminate the emotional risks involved in relationships.

My argument isn't that harems are good. More that most VNs are equally bad in that department. VNs where (supposed) LIs betrays the MC is extremely rare outside NTR games. In fact any type of conflict between MC and LI are rare. As long as you stay on an LIs path everything is great.

 

[Raife]

My argument isn't that harems are good. More that most VNs are equally bad in that department. VNs where (supposed) LIs betrays the MC is extremely rare outside NTR games. In fact any type of conflict between MC and LI are rare. As long as you stay on an LIs path everything is great.

Oh yes, most VNs _are bad_ in that respect... there we agree completely. They are all about wish fulfillment. The point is that harem games are the reductio ad absurdum of wish fulfillment games, at least from my point of view.

The VNs I love are the opposite of most of what's on this site. They make me feel deeply, because they expose the MC to emotional risk and pain even on the good/true end paths... as well as joy.

 

[moskyx]

I always recall a game I found in the old Lagoon forum (sadly I can't remember its title) in which the goal for your MC was to start your typical 3-way relationship with your gym's manager (a married MILF) and a young and spicy masseuse you met there... only to find out that you were actually their victim as they just wanted to steal all the money you just got from an insurance policy, with the alleged cucked husband being the mastermind of the gang. Just after supposedly getting the game's best possible ending, you got badly beaten up and your MC eventually admitted that he should have known better and never engaged in all the absurdly risky things he did to get those women, as that kind of thing never happens in real life.

So yeah, an 'harem' story can perfectly work as a story. It's all about being creative.

 

[Raife]

I think that describes the state of the supply well, but it's not really a hard restriction of the genre. You could write a harem story where the harem path creates extra drama and failure points, opportunities for game over.[/ISPOILER] ?

Absolutely, Jaike... I agree it's possible. An emotionally fraught harem game would be brilliant... and would earn the poor dev endless hatred on this hellsite (apart from this thread).

 

[bacienvu88]

Oh yes, most VNs _are bad_ in that respect... there we agree completely. They are all about wish fulfillment. The point is that harem games are the reductio ad absurdum of wish fulfillment games, at least from my point of view.

The VNs I love are the opposite of most of what's on this site. They make me feel deeply, because they expose the MC to emotional risk and pain even on the good/true end paths... as well as joy.

I also want to say that if harem is acceptable or not for me depends a whole lot on the story in question. If it is a game where the romance is front and center a harem really doesn't make much sense. If it is the typical adventure story where the MC forms a team of women to unravel mysteries and beat bad guys, the romance is mostly incidental and a harem doesn't bother me.

 

[Hildegardt]

I always recall a game I found in the old Lagoon forum (sadly I can't remember its title) in which the goal for your MC was to start your typical 3-way relationship with your gym's manager (a married MILF) and a young and spicy masseuse you met there... only to find out that you were actually their victim as they just wanted to steal all the money you just got from an insurance policy, with the alleged cucked husband being the mastermind of the gang. Just after supposedly getting the game's best possible ending, you got badly beaten up and your MC eventually admitted that he should have known better and never engaged in all the absurdly risky things he did to get those women, as that kind of thing never happens in real life.

So yeah, an 'harem' story can perfectly work as a story. It's all about being creative.

IIrc when we first had this discussion, we quickly realized that the most vocal members of the "harem community" probably wouldn't like any harem games with interesting twists. A game like you mentioned wouldn't fly these days, at least without a shitstorm.
So I guess the question is, if harem games really need fixing, when, from my experience, the fans would really hate less shallow characters and less contrived plots.

There actually is a harem game in jufot's recommendations called Mythos, which is pretty good, because all the LIs have a place in the story with a rather high degree of agency. But I could see how this deviates a little too much from the norm for some harem fans.

 

[desmosome]

You know... I actually wrote an outline of some NTR --> harem (domination) story a while back in the general forums (which had 0 replies and promptly got burried lol).

Spoiler

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Any thoughts?

 

[moskyx]

A game like you mentioned wouldn't fly these days, at least without a shitstorm.

That's for sure

So I guess the question is, if harem games really need fixing, when, from my experience, the fans would really hate less shallow characters and less contrived plots.

It's not about fixing harem games as they obviously work well enough in their current form for harem lovers, but about making them more appealing to the bunch of weirdos who frequent this thread

 

[bacienvu88]

There actually is a harem game in jufot's recommendations called Mythos, which is pretty good, because all the LIs have a place in the story with a rather high degree of agency. But I could see how this deviates a little too much from the norm for some harem fans.

Mythos is great! That harem is really interesting. All of the LIs hold great secrets.

 

[noping123]

The real issue I see with this entire discussion comes down to one simple word:

Time.


Making a harem game is fine. Making a game with actual consequences is fine. Making a harem game with actual consequences is a developmental nightmare. It would take a massive amount of effort and time to produce one, (assuming we tick all the boxes everyone here has mentioned they would want out of it) - ultimately things like that almost never get made because you could produce two or three full games (harem, non harem, whatever) of the more "typical" fare, in the same amount of time it'd take to just pump out a portion of this hypothetical game here.


Really there's only two types of people who would even attempt it: #1 first-time devs who REALLY don't know what they're getting into, and the chances of abandoning partway through are very high.

#2: teams of multiple people - the sheer amount of work required would be pretty damn daunting for a single person to undertake.

Ultimately, I think that's the biggest reason you don't see those types of games almost ever, the amount of development time required to do it right would be absolutely massive, and the returns for such an undertaking usually won't be there.