Recommending Story-first games

[TranscendentThots]

The real issue I see with this entire discussion comes down to one simple word:

Time.


Making a harem game is fine. Making a game with actual consequences is fine. Making a harem game with actual consequences is a developmental nightmare. It would take a massive amount of effort and time to produce one, (assuming we tick all the boxes everyone here has mentioned they would want out of it) - ultimately things like that almost never get made because you could produce two or three full games (harem, non harem, whatever) of the more "typical" fare, in the same amount of time it'd take to just pump out a portion of this hypothetical game here.


Really there's only two types of people who would even attempt it: #1 first-time devs who REALLY don't know what they're getting into, and the chances of abandoning partway through are very high.

#2: teams of multiple people - the sheer amount of work required would be pretty damn daunting for a single person to undertake.

Ultimately, I think that's the biggest reason you don't see those types of games almost ever, the amount of development time required to do it right would be absolutely massive, and the returns for such an undertaking usually won't be there.

I'm a little confused by this response. Can you explain why "doing it right" takes long than doing it wrong? Or why a well-written harem game with consequences would be harder or more time-consuming to write than a well-written murder mystery with the same number of choices in it?

It sounds like you're assuming a whole seperate game-length narrative for each possible combination of characters? (I.E. a Time Cave?) Or at least an ongoing story several days long, with "fucking/not-fucking dialogue optiosn for every character in every scene, which the game can swap between on-the-fly based on whether a given LI's relationship status is "single" or "it's complicated?"

But I'd argue that it can actually be much simpler than that. Just use a hug-and-spokes style story structure where seducing each LI is its own side-route, then once you've completed all the routes, it unlocks the option to play the ending route. Basically the same as existing harem games, structurally speaking.

There's no fundamental reason I can think of why an author couldn't write that, but with better-written spokes and an endgame that takes into account everything previously established. Just write an existing harem story better. Then write a better version of that story. Repeat until better is good enough to be "good."

But maybe your idea of "good writing" requires a specific storytelling structure, too. Or maybe I'm severely misunderstanding what "good writing" means.

 

[jufot]

Which non-harem VN:s does not work like spending Kindess Coins on women so you get them in the end?

I'll have to think and search for a proper answer for that one, but Corporate Culture comes to mind. I'm pretty sure Edward opening his mouth is a turn-off for Elsa, regardless of the coins that come out of it

But would you really think a VN is good where the romances with the LI:s are completely divorced from the over-arching story?

Definitely! In fact, it was mentioned right below:

There actually is a harem game in jufot's recommendations called Mythos, which is pretty good, because all the LIs have a place in the story with a rather high degree of agency. But I could see how this deviates a little too much from the norm for some harem fans.

The sex in Mythos is completely detached from the story. Nine (the dev) said the original story had no sex, and in fact an asexual MC. Unfortunately, Nine was aware of market realities and wanted people to actually read the story, which is why there is an optional male MC and optional sex scenes that are irrelevant to the plot. So yes, it's 'harem' in the sense that you can have consequence free sex with everyone, but there is no happy romantic orgy.

I prefer a harem ending to games that does mostly everything the same as a harem game but ends with "select the girl you want and ditch the rest".

This I agree with. The Author is the most egregious example that comes to mind.

 

[bacienvu88]

You know... I actually wrote an outline of some NTR --> harem (domination) story a while back in the general forums (which had 0 replies and promptly got burried lol).

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Any thoughts?

I guess it could be interesting.

But not for me. Too many assholes for my taste. And violence. And I'm generally not interested in revenge stories. And if there is revenge it should be done through wit rather than violence.

 

[jufot]

Any thoughts?

Ehhh. I liked it until the bandit leader was attacked. I'm not a fan of sexual violence that's used for titillation. What bacienvu says basically.

 

[realjitter]

Time.

Speaking of which, shouldn't you rather be writing chapter 7 of Alive right now?=)

I very much would like to

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or on the the Mary+Scarlet route

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Or on the other routes

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just saying...

 

[bacienvu88]

I'll have to think and search for a proper answer for that one, but Corporate Culture comes to mind. I'm pretty sure Edward opening his mouth is a turn-off for Elsa, regardless of the coins that come out of it

CC is a really good example, yes. I am really curious where CC will go. I have a hard time seeing what all those "alpha" and "loser" points will actually do.

Definitely! In fact, it was mentioned right below:

I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that. I should probably go to bed now.

The sex in Mythos is completely detached from the story. Nine (the dev) said the original story had no sex, and in fact an asexual MC. Unfortunately, Nine was aware of market realities and wanted people to actually read the story, which is why there is an optional male MC and optional sex scenes that are irrelevant to the plot. So yes, it's 'harem' in the sense that you can have consequence free sex with everyone, but there is no happy romantic orgy.

And there I don't like it. I would have preferred if getting into relationships with those girls would be detrimental to Kylie in the long run!

 

[noping123]

I'm a little confused by this response. Can you explain why "doing it right" takes long than doing it wrong? Or why a well-written harem game with consequences would be harder or more time-consuming to write than a well-written murder mystery with the same number of choices in it?

It sounds like you're assuming a whole seperate game-length narrative for each possible combination of characters? (I.E. a Time Cave?) Or at least an ongoing story several days long, with "fucking/not-fucking dialogue optiosn for every character in every scene, which the game can swap between on-the-fly based on whether a given LI's relationship status is "single" or "it's complicated?"

But I'd argue that it can actually be much simpler than that. Just use a hug-and-spokes style story structure where seducing each LI is its own side-route, then once you've completed all the routes, it unlocks the option to play the ending route. Basically the same as existing harem games, structurally speaking.

There's no fundamental reason I can think of why an author couldn't write that, but with better-written spokes and an endgame that takes into account everything previously established. Just write an existing harem story better. Then write a better version of that story. Repeat until better is good enough to be "good."

But maybe your idea of "good writing" requires a specific storytelling structure, too. Or maybe I'm severely misunderstanding what "good writing" means.

There's a lot more to a game than writing. Writing is by far the quickest, and easiest part of the entire process.

Speaking of which, shouldn't you rather be writing chapter 7 of Alive right now?=)

I very much would like to

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or on the the Mary+Scarlet route

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Or on the other routes

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just saying...

Ahem. I am currently working my way through my 184 deep (plus a dozen animations) render queue. (that's about 7 days of 24/7 rendering for those keeping track at home). ( I'm writing on and off while it's going, but at least the broad strokes are done. I'm just working on the dialogue on and off.

Also it's Stacey >:[



Also, I am really mad that SO MANY PEOPLE have said they want Mary to die. It actually upsets me a little how many people I've seen mention that.

 

[desmosome]

I guess it could be interesting.

But not for me. Too many assholes for my taste. And violence. And I'm generally not interested in revenge stories. And if there is revenge it should be done through wit rather than violence.

Ehhh. I liked it until the bandit leader was attacked. I'm not a fan of sexual violence that's used for titillation. What bacienvu says basically.

Hmm wrong place to post it then XD.

Definitely taking the darkest variation of both NTR and Harem. But I think the goal was to show that the whole thing was for naught because the MC doesn't feel like he actually won in the end. He became a tyrant with no meaningful bonds.

The dark progression was kind of forced because I liked the opening and ending sequence. If we take that out, there could be more route variations available where he becomes a hero and what not I guess.

 

[realjitter]

(that's about 7 days of 24/7 rendering for those keeping track at home)

So what? Just find a way to make days go longer than 24 hours. That's a lame excuse..
-----
I'm just kidding of course, but Chapter 6 was very entertaining

-Also it's Stacey >:[

Yeah, me and AVN female names. I have no idead why i have such a hard time remembering them, sry. But hey, Scarlet/Stacey... all the same, right?=)

-Also, I am really mad that SO MANY PEOPLE have said they want Mary to die. It actually upsets me a little how many people I've seen mention that.

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[EndlessNights]

As I see it there are Player Agency, MC Agency and NPC Agency. And these conflict with each other. The more Agency the MC has, the less the Player (although not absolutely necessarily*) and the NPC:s have. And the same for the others.

I think this is really interesting, and thinking about this is necessary if you want games that can compete with "real" novels storywise. With characters and story makes sense, compared to your experiences from the real world (note; I did not say "realistic", I can totally buy the need for escapism and fantasies).

But how can one fit the gaming mechanics into this? Giving the player options, but still maintain a sense of having MC's and NPC's with Agency?

To an extent player agency, MC agency, and NPC agency must be in conflict, but I think there's ample room for all three in a good game. Perhaps the degree to which these agencies impinge on one another tends to even be a bit overstated. For instance, you might assume theoretically that a blank slate MC offers the player the most agency to make the character he or she wants, but in practice a VN is always going to offer limited choices and paths. There are countless choices a player can make for a protagonist with a set personality and established backstory -- it's just that who the character is will prevent some options and paths from being possibilities, particularly at the extremes of behavior. Blank slate MCs who freely jump from one extreme to the other always end up looking silly anyway.

Good stories tend to have characters who grow, change, and experience crises so the MC at the beginning of the VN won't be exactly the same as the MC at the end. There's still opportunity for the player to guide and shape the MC in meaningful ways even though he or she remains a consistent character.

If we have eight characters who look initially like they might be possible LIs but it turns out three are uninterested in the MC and one the MC refuses to pursue, this might seem like a particularly bad situation for player agency. After all, the player's favorite waifu or husbando might be one of the non-LIs. I think the tradeoff is worth it for the realism and for the sake of having NPCs who truly have their own minds and personalities. However, there's still a lot of potential for player agency in how the MC reacts to the situation and the characters like I mentioned before when I talked about dealing with rejection. Maybe an initially romance-focused playthrough could even turn into one more focused on friendship or achieving other goals if a favorite character turns out not to be a romantic option.

Another interesting character would be someone that pretends to like MC for whatever reason. Although gold diggers are common in VN:s they are always outed as such within the first scene and generally won't be interested in MC anyway.

I enjoy how Where the Heart Is plays around with the idea of one or more characters being gold diggers who are misleading the MC. There have been many pages of analysis written in that game thread concerning the true motivations of Elaine, Bella, and other characters. That game is somewhere near the uncomfortable middle of porn-focused and story-focused, but I find the inheritance storyline consistently interesting.

Finally, I just wanted to say I'm glad to see you back posting again, bacienvu88! You are one of the first people I remember ever talking to on this site, and I've been worried you'd quit the site for good over the past few months. It's great to see you back and better than ever. With Raife back as well, we're finally playing with a full deck again (but of course new cards are always welcome...join the discussion, lurkers!).

 

[noping123]

So what? Just find a way to make days go longer than 24 hours. That's a lame excuse..
-----
I'm just kidding of course, but Chapter 6 was very entertaining

-Also it's Stacey >:[

Yeah, me and AVN female names. I have no idead why i have such a hard time remembering them, sry. But hey, Scarlet/Stacey... all the same, right?=)

-Also, I am really mad that SO MANY PEOPLE have said they want Mary to die. It actually upsets me a little how many people I've seen mention that.

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Ahem....

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[realjitter]

Ahem....

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You're right of course. In my mind Freddie got

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which i'm obviously wrong about...(I just looked it up). So don't mind me . But generally speaking, it would be cool to

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I'm pretty sure that would be an AVN first. Well, it probably aint, but... cool nonetheless

 

[bacienvu88]

To an extent player agency, MC agency, and NPC agency must be in conflict, but I think there's ample room for all three in a good game. Perhaps the degree to which these agencies impinge on one another tends to even be a bit overstated. For instance, you might assume theoretically that a blank slate MC offers the player the most agency to make the character he or she wants, but in practice a VN is always going to offer limited choices and paths. There are countless choices a player can make for a protagonist with a set personality and established backstory -- it's just that who the character is will prevent some options and paths from being possibilities, particularly at the extremes of behavior. Blank slate MCs who freely jump from one extreme to the other always end up looking silly anyway.

Good stories tend to have characters who grow, change, and experience crises so the MC at the beginning of the VN won't be exactly the same as the MC at the end. There's still opportunity for the player to guide and shape the MC in meaningful ways even though he or she remains a consistent character.

Yes, the conflict between agencies is pretty fluid and non-linear.

One way to improve things is chemistry as we discussed earlier. Or traits. Here the grow, change comes from strengthening/weakening traits throughout the story.

Another is to change POV for the choices from MC to a holistic one such as writer/director. That is instead of "MC do/say A, B or C" we have "A, B or C happens".

If we have eight characters who look initially like they might be possible LIs but it turns out three are uninterested in the MC and one the MC refuses to pursue, this might seem like a particularly bad situation for player agency. After all, the player's favorite waifu or husbando might be one of the non-LIs. I think the tradeoff is worth it for the realism and for the sake of having NPCs who truly have their own minds and personalities. However, there's still a lot of potential for player agency in how the MC reacts to the situation and the characters like I mentioned before when I talked about dealing with rejection. Maybe an initially romance-focused playthrough could even turn into one more focused on friendship or achieving other goals if a favorite character turns out not to be a romantic option.

Friendship in VN:s is severely underrated. Mostly because everything is about sex in these games.
You know how it is so common for MC to have a close friend that turns into lover and before taking that step they are afraid of destroying that friendship? It would be interesting if the friendship actually is destroyed sometimes instead of it always working out fine.

I enjoy how Where the Heart Is plays around with the idea of one or more characters being gold diggers who are misleading the MC. There have been many pages of analysis written in that game thread concerning the true motivations of Elaine, Bella, and other characters. That game is somewhere near the uncomfortable middle of porn-focused and story-focused, but I find the inheritance storyline consistently interesting.

I haven't played WTHI for around 10 episodes now because of the combination of choices the devs have made. There are no possibilities for friendship. Either lover or no content. Combined with trying to romance them all will lead to complications down the road it is difficult to know what will work out or not. Thus I thought I'd wait to play it again until there is a completed tag.

That said, I really do think that theme is pretty interesting as you said. Plus the conflicts between the LI:s are also interesting.

Finally, I just wanted to say I'm glad to see you back posting again, bacienvu88! You are one of the first people I remember ever talking to on this site, and I've been worried you'd quit the site for good over the past few months. It's great to see you back and better than ever. With Raife back as well, we're finally playing with a full deck again (but of course new cards are always welcome...join the discussion, lurkers!).

Thanks! I drifted away to only reading webnovels for a while. But now I'll try to play VN:s again. Have some catching up to do.

 

[Dragon59]

I think both the alpha and beta males in your scenario are vying for the attention of women, just in different ways. The alphas are trying to embody a set of qualities (let's call it "being an asshole" for simplicity's sake) they think that women are attracted to on some primordial, unconscious level. The betas are taking more of a "kindness coins" approach using the parlance of Michelle Clough: they're trying to exchange kind acts and attention for affection. I'm not sure either necessarily values the women they pursue as human beings and individuals.

Like I've said before. Classifying people like this is based on a myth formulated an erroneous conclusion from observing wolves. Even the researcher who populated the idea of the Alpha Wolf admitted he was in error.

Rather than an alpha MC or a beta MC, I'd personally prefer to play MCs who aren't defined by seduction strategies. I'd rather have an MC who has his or her own personality, personal philosophy, and morality that other characters will either be attracted to or repelled by. Instead of MCs tailoring themselves to fit what their LIs want, we could have MCs who more or less accept themselves as they are and expect the people who love them to do the same.

The games, The Fosters tried to create a system wherein the MC would collect "Alpha" and "Beta" points based upon decisions. I didn't finish the game, so I really don't know how it ended up manifesting.

I think what's missing the most in AVNs are characters who just aren't interested in the MC for whatever reason and never will be. Maybe there's an insurmountable personality clash. Not everyone who takes an instant dislike for an MC needs to be a tsundere -- they could just hate his or her guts. Maybe their moral values are so far apart that they cannot even understand other's basic motivations. Maybe they just don't like how he dresses or how she talks. Having characters like that would improve realism and also make the characters who are genuinely interested in the MC stand out more as unique individuals.

That will definitely happen my polyamory game. A single MC will not be able to connect with all the characters. I'm sure the three letter phobic will dislike it, but despite allowing multiple partners, it will not allow all the partners.

I also think would be potentially really interesting to see how MCs handle rejection. Will they try to befriend the uninterested characters? If the chasm is too wide, even friendship might not be possible...perhaps congenial coexistence would be, though. Will they avoid and ignore them? Will they go full incel and start ranting and raging at them? (If so, I have a pretty good idea of who that MC will end up facing at his next job interview).

I will definitely have side characters making bad decisions, and will probably have some for the player to make as well. Of course, one aspect of a polyamorous community is that people talk and word travels. If a player treats an LI badly, it will affect his or her reputation with others.

 

[Dragon59]

That's a take I wasn't entirely expecting. Can I ask why that's a problem?

And how do you suppose we should fix it?

• Add NPCs who aren't LIs?
• Remove LIs from the game until there's only one or possibly 2 people in the whole setting who cany the MC?
• Actively prevent the LIs from falling for the MC? (But wouldn't they just be NPCs, then?)
• Make the player jump through mechanical hoops that require either actually understanding the LIs as individual people or else consulting a walkthrough? (But then, isn't the player de facto "manipulating" the LIs by telling them what they wanna hear?)

A story about an MC and a bunch of women who aren't that into him is just a creep simulator.

That sounds like the creepy side of Groundhog day.

One thing I would consider is character creation. The player chooses what kind of personality/presence/habits the MC will have, and based upon that, some relationships become possible while others are out of reach. It would not be popular with the Three Letter Phobic, because those out of reach LIs would likely find compatibility with another NPC.

My takeaway from the discussion was that it very quickly turned into "How can I make a harem work?", which kind of defeats the purpose imo. Because there are already countless examples of making a harem work, it's just that some people (like me) wouldn't qualify them as "story first games".
I think that any lifestyle that's different from most people's lived experience can make for an interesting story. People mentioned actual historical harems for example, but I think it works for any fetish, not just harem. The problem is that it very quickly turns into a cheap trope, when a fetish is the subject of a story. Imagine a story about BDSM, where every single character is into getting whipped for some reason. It's unimmersive.

My polyamory game will include optional introduction into the local kink community. At some point, I should probably make it a game in itself, and not just one of many possible paths.

I'm with jufot. I _hate_ harem games with a passion: they eliminate risk for the player, they tend to destroy the integrity of the characters of the LIs, and they usually say something a bit odd about the MC. Finally, and most importantly, they often undermine the realism of the story, if it is set in a universe like ours. (Let me be clear... I am NOT making a judgment about poly relationships... and almost all harem games are not written as poly relationships, anyway.)

It's quite clear why people like harem games, and I think Transcendent's ideas on writing better harem games are solid. But... I still won't be playing those games. Why? Personal taste:

• I love hard games and don't mind failing many, many times in pursuit of a difficult goal or LI. Like many of you, I'm a completionist, but with a really, really long attention span if a game is well-written.
• I really like women, particularly strong, determined, 'challenging' women... the kind of female LIs who would never join a harem for any male MC, under any circumstances.
• Emotional pain and difficult choices are catnip to me... life is full of difficult choices, or easy choices that can have disastrous consequences. I want to make them and feel the consequences in the games that I play.
• Cheating games are great -- but only when the cheating has a price or creates real risk. Harem games eliminate the risk.
• Harem games tend to be badly written or implausible. But... even if there were a well-written harem game, I probably wouldn't enjoy it, because of points 1-4.

I _have_ enjoyed a few games that have 'mini-harem' endings: i.e. where you can end up with LI X, or LI Y, or LIs A+B, but NOT ABXY. That's probably because those mini harems actually have believable poly dynamics among the small group, which doesn't undermine the characters of the LIs or kill plausibility.

So... I'm all in favour of better harem games, but they're not for me.

As a polyamorous man, I am not comfortable with the cheating games. The cheating and implausible non-monogamy in some games is what inspired me to start writing my own.

Personally, my own personal "poly-saturation" seems to be limited to two or three partners. When I was in my twenties, I thought about having more. I know one guy who's job sends him all over the US and some outside. He lives with his wife and one of his partners. He also has a few other girlfriends whom he sees a few times a year. I think he has a couple of other local girlfriends as well. I can't imagine being present enough for all of them.

That may be part of my own problem. Taking on all that responsibility instead of trusting in their own agency, their own ability to see to their needs. I seem to be too much of a caregiver for a lot of partners.

 

[bacienvu88]

Like I've said before. Classifying people like this is based on a myth formulated an erroneous conclusion from observing wolves. Even the researcher who populated the idea of the Alpha Wolf admitted he was in error.

I hate when alpha/beta is used unquestioningly in stories.
On the other hand when used well it can be pretty great. For example I read a couple interesting short stories of literal alpha/beta/omega societies where all people are born/awakened as either an alpha, beta or omega. And they are physically different and having pheromones that attract/repel others (alphas attract omegas but repels other alphas). One of the stories was about someone who was injected by a drug to change from an alpha to an omega. Then helps beta/omega people stage a revolt against the tyrannical alphas. In the other story a young woman dreams of becoming the most beautiful omega. Then she becomes a very strong alpha instead and have a severe identity crisis.

That sounds like the creepy side of Groundhog day.

Also known as Lust Theory. And that game is pretty creepy.

 

[desmosome]

That's for sure


It's not about fixing harem games as they obviously work well enough in their current form for harem lovers, but about making them more appealing to the bunch of weirdos who frequent this thread

I think simplifying the "story-first" criteria in the OP more or less leads to characters behaving believably and a certain level of groundedness to the world.

By groundedness, I mean we are not really considering extremely wacky world building like "only man alive" or some other contrived situation that is only there to enable a fetish.

I've wracked my brain over this, as have others, but it seems like the typical harem that the harem enthusiasts want are fundamentally going to break one or both of those conditions.

Just recently, I've played through 2 well written harem games, but I couldn't really be sure if it will go over well over here.

Twisted Memories was rather incredible. The premise, preview pics, and shota/loli might turn off most people here, but if you give it a chance, it might actually make you think about your own life. Do I think it's story-first? I'm not sure... really. It has a story. It has a pretty profound theme. The characters are very well realized and have their own motivations. But it also can be porny at times. I mean, it's incest/harem after all. And the MC is a middle aged man in a shota body (and he brought over his horse cock lol). Although age play isn't really used as a fetish, the implications might not be everyone's cup of tea. Most (all?) sexual situations are optional, afaik, so you can avoid combinations that are uncomfortable.

Stray Incubus was another decent one. It's certainly not thought provoking like Twisted Memories, but it utilizes a pretty good story structure that plays out like shonen arcs. It's much more harem oriented, but it's also rather slow burn. Character interactions happen in accordance with the plot rather than for the sake of "interacting with the harem." But this too can be porny as you would expect from an incubus MC (even if it's a good guy incubus). And the characters are definitely revolving around the MC here.

Then again, they both didn't actually get to the harem part yet. Stray Incubus is easy to see. It's gonna be the usual safe harem. Twisted Memories though... I'm not so sure how it will look. That game is really well written, imo.

I can see Stray Incubus pretty clearly would not make the cut, but Twisted Memories... I'm not so sure. I mean, there are clearly porny aspects to it, but the heart of the story is really compelling.

 

[Éama]

I enjoy how Where the Heart Is plays around with the idea of one or more characters being gold diggers who are misleading the MC. There have been many pages of analysis written in that game thread concerning the true motivations of Elaine, Bella, and other characters. That game is somewhere near the uncomfortable middle of porn-focused and story-focused, but I find the inheritance storyline consistently interesting.

Where the Heart Is forces you to play a gigolo, even if you don't want that initially. Because the story is wired in such a way that gameplay becomes boring when you are faithful and true to one love interest. I found that this is a very uncomfortable form of railroading and I found the drama surrounding the inheritance artificial as a result. Is it really good storytelling when you fall victim to a golddigger because it's the only way to be entertained? I'd argue a successful golddigger character has to catch you off guard, that's the nature of it.

 

[moskyx]

I think simplifying the "story-first" criteria in the OP more or less leads to characters behaving believably and a certain level of groundedness to the world.

By groundedness, I mean we are not really considering extremely wacky world building like "only man alive" or some other contrived situation that is only there to enable a fetish.

I've wracked my brain over this, as has others, but it seems like the typical harem that the harem enthusiasts want are fundamentally going to break one or both of those conditions.

Just recently, I've played through 2 well written harem games, but I couldn't really be sure if it will go over well over here.

Twisted Memories was rather incredible. The premise, preview pics, and shota/loli might turn off most people here, but if you give it a chance, it might actually make you think about your own life. Do I think it's story-first? I'm not sure... really. It has a story. It has a pretty profound theme. The characters are very well realized and have their own motivations. But it also can be porny at times. And the MC is a middle aged man in a shota body (and he brought over his horse cock lol). Although age play isn't really used as a fetish, the implications might not be everyone's cup of tea. Most (all?) sexual situations are optional, afaik, so you can avoid combinations that are uncomfortable.

Stray Incubus was another decent one. It's certainly not thought provoking like Twisted Memories, but it utilizes a pretty good story structure that plays out like shonen arcs. It's much more harem oriented, but it's also rather slow burn. Character interactions happen in accordance with the plot rather than for the sake of "interacting with the harem." But this too can be porny as you would expect from an incubus MC (even if it's a good guy incubus). And the characters are definitely revolving around the MC here.

Then again, they both didn't actually get to the harem part yet. Stray Incubus is easy to see. It's gonna be the usual safe harem. Twisted Memories though... I'm not so sure how it will look. That game is really well written, imo.

I can see Stray Incubus pretty clearly would not make the cut, but Twisted Memories... I'm not so sure. I mean, there are clearly porny aspects to it, but the heart of the story is really compelling.

The list is just Jufot's. He puts his conditions and evaluate games according to what he considers best. We don't neccesarily agree with some of his constraints and that's why we keep bringing up games like the ones you mention, that maybe will never make it to the list but we find interesting enough in terms of story. So if you think they have a somewhat deep story and focus on those story elements on top of the porny aspects, we trust you on that. Surely other regulars will feel interested enough to try them out even if they don't quality to be listed in the OP,

 

[desmosome]

The list is just Jufot's. He puts his conditions and evaluate games according to what he considers best. We don't neccesarily agree with some of his constraints and that's why we keep bringing up games like the ones you mention, that maybe will never make it to the list but we find interesting enough in terms of story. So if you think they have a somewhat deep story and focus on those story elements on top of the porny aspects, we trust you on that. Surely other regulars will feel interested enough to try them out even if they don't quality to be listed in the OP,

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply the criteria is bad or anything. Maybe "story-first" doesn't encompass the true meaning behind the criteria, but we all know what type of story it's referring to by now. I was just joining the harem discussion since that's the fad lately heh.