VN Ren'Py STWA: Unbroken [Pt. 7] [STWAdev]

[Dr.TSoni]

We do, and quite correctly i may add.

No. She tells them that they have no idea who they're dealing with. Then she intimidates them. Saying "i've dealt with men who'd pick their teeth with your bones" then goes on saying: BACK OF NOW!
This is intimidation, not provocation. Though she might want them to swing, she didn't provoke it.

Telling someone, let alone two drunks trying to appear strong, a few centimeters from their face how easy it is to beat them is provocation 101

They both grew up without a sense of self worth

This is bullshit in the last chapter all she does is say how much better she was than her brother

So she's opening up real fast. And once she opens up about her whole military service, we'll see crystal clear that they belong to eachother.

This is partially only if you cast her as LI, right from the start when she's just a friend of a friend she tries to force Valentine to tell her his secrets. The point is, she's not interested in Valentine', she's interested in seeing Valentine's "monster" so she can have someone to show her "monster" to.

 

[maroek]

Telling someone, let alone two drunks trying to appear strong, a few centimeters from their face how easy it is to beat them is provocation 101

You say provocation, I say intimidation.

This is bullshit in the last chapter all she does is say how much better she was than her brother

And why was that? Because her brother was the golden child, and she was neglected. Remember Elspeth's conversation with Viridiana? Viridiana was explaining why Valentine did what he did, yelling his mother "perpetually second best" and Elspeth completing the sentence "B+ player"... She had to prove everyone that she was better than her brother. Yet, no one cared about it until her brother, who was a naughty boy, died. Even when she was the obvious choice as the heir, her father didn't attend to her graduation from the military academy. So, yes! She is exactly like Valentine for this subject.

This is partially only if you cast her as LI, right from the start when she's just a friend of a friend she tries to force Valentine to tell her his secrets. The point is, she's not interested in Valentine', she's interested in seeing Valentine's "monster" so she can have someone to show her "monster" to.

You call it monster, I call it wolf. As McNab put it the first time they met: Those two are cut from the same cloth. They are both kind people, they are both monsters, and they are the same. And Elspeth wants to be with Valentine because she knows that. Valentine doesn't know that yet, at least fully; because Elspeth does her homework beforehand. But Valentine will get that once Elspeth shares her military service, though I am expecting some drama there, Elspeth being behind Zaina's death or something like that, which will strain their relationship on the brink of breaking. However, they will live happily ever after, if that doesn't happen or Valentine finds his heart to forgive her if it does.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

And why was that? Because her brother was the golden child, and she was neglected. Remember Elspeth's conversation with Viridiana? Viridiana was explaining why Valentine did what he did, yelling his mother "perpetually second best" and Elspeth completing the sentence "B+ player"... She had to prove everyone that she was better than her brother. Yet, no one cared about it until her brother, who was a naughty boy, died. Even when she was the obvious choice as the heir, her father didn't attend to her graduation from the military academy. So, yes! She is exactly like Valentine for this subject.

Elspeth's father has done nothing but worry about her and sing her praises since her first appearance. When he talks about Elspeth not being fit he is referring to the tradition of serving in the army, and he was right. In the past it is shown that she is incapable of following orders and in the present that she struggles to live with the consequences.

You call it monster, I call it wolf. As McNab put it the first time they met: Those two are cut from the same cloth. They are both kind people, they are both monsters, and they are the same. And Elspeth wants to be with Valentine because she knows that. Valentine doesn't know that yet, at least fully; because Elspeth does her homework beforehand. But Valentine will get that once Elspeth shares her military service, though I am expecting some drama there, Elspeth being behind Zaina's death or something like that, which will strain their relationship on the brink of breaking. However, they will live happily ever after, if that doesn't happen or Valentine finds his heart to forgive her if it does.

It's Valentine who calls him that.
Secondly, I don't think it will be what puts their relationship to the test, but Elspeth's approach

 

[maroek]

Elspeth's father has done nothing but worry about her and sing her praises since her first appearance. When he talks about Elspeth not being fit he is referring to the tradition of serving in the army, and he was right. In the past it is shown that she is incapable of following orders and in the present that she struggles to live with the consequences.

Would you expect her father to put Elspeth to shame, in front of someone who he's meeting for the first time?

My own father did make me feel inferior, and my mother was the one who actually criticised me unfairly in front of others. Those two are completely different things, coming from different agendas. My father's approach was about reverse psychology, even though it didn't work. My mother was actually the malicious one, telling everyone how bad of a son I was, in order to look like an angel to them. And guess which one of my parents I hate?
Elspeth wouldn't try hard as she did, to earn her father's approval if he was like my mother. She'd just give up on him and go her merry way.
Yes, everybody knew she wasn't fit for military duty because of who she is, but one had to take the mantle of being the heir after her brother's passing, and Elspeth did it to prove that she was better than him, as well as to keep the tradition.

In the past it is shown that she is incapable of following orders and in the present that she struggles to live with the consequences.

I don't know if you ever part of a military institution but I have. Guess what? Military is made for total morons. And for someone with well above average IQ myself, it was hell to march 5 hours straight, just because some idiots couldn't march properly, or refused to do so. Plus, the command structure isn't that efficient either. Officers are usually stupid, selfish, or just incapable of understanding how to make things work properly. So it's no surprise Elspeth was incapable of following orders, because she actually knew better than those who was ordering her around.

Secondly, I don't think it will be what puts their relationship to the test, but Elspeth's approach

Valentine can deal with Elspeth's approach all day long. He actually reads her very well. Remember their conversation in the pool pub, in Mallorca? He called her out right into her face. I get that Elspeth's overbearing personality can rub some in the wrong way, but Valentine isn't one of those people. I'll go out on a limp and claim that he actually likes that. And he isn't one to fake it until make it.
Remember their conversation, after Valentine helped Elspeth moving and ate dinner? Elspeth asks Valentine if her intelligence really bothers him that much. She'll gain friendship and trust points if he admits her brain scares him. Yet, she'll gain love but lose trust points if he says "not at all". Elspeth values Valentine's honesty more than his love. So she doesn't mind Valentine telling what's in his mind, even if it's not what Elspeth wants to hear.

TLDR: You are way off base with Elspeth.

BTW, I hate Elspeth's physique. She's way too tall, I mean she has to be somewhere around 180 to 190 cm according to STWAs depictions. She has a huge ass and breasts that can put Bessy to shame. But she also has the most beautiful face, with Ines being a close second since they are pretty similar apart from some details. Nothing I say about Elspeth is because of her looks.

 

[Alfred the Fallen]

Back to their cinema date... Valentine talks with either Zaina or Davis, and he says "she's overbearing, smug, distant" and Zaina/Davis adds "dangerous". And that's true to the teeth.

Uhh.... you do realize that scene is about how Valentine's subconscious is aware that Elspeth is a liar? And that he thinks she's the opposite of him? And he's worried that she could be a danger to him and the people he cares about?

Spoiler: Conversation

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It's one of the best reasons to avoid Elspeth.

About others' privacy thing... SHE IS AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER! Intelligence people have a need to know drive. They gather intel because knowledge is power. You can't blame a genius, who already has inherent curiosity, intelligence officer, whose job is being curious, for gathering intel, about someone they love/care.

Is she an active duty intelligence officer who has been given orders to spy on Valentine?

No? Well then she's just a creep.

The fault lies on the drunk people who threw the first punch because they couldnt handle being talked down by a girl.

See that part right there? That's the provocation we've been accusing Elspeth of.

The idea that she could intimidate them by boasting about her service record is incredibly stupid. How would they know if she's telling the truth? They don't have acess to her military records, and she certainly doesn't look intimidating at all, so of course they're going to think she's full of shit. All they see is a scrawny woman insulting them and boasting about how easily she could beat them up.

Her actions ensured that the fight would happen.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Would you expect her father to put Elspeth to shame, in front of someone who he's meeting for the first time?

My own father did make me feel inferior, and my mother was the one who actually criticised me unfairly in front of others. Those two are completely different things, coming from different agendas. My father's approach was about reverse psychology, even though it didn't work. My mother was actually the malicious one, telling everyone how bad of a son I was, in order to look like an angel to them. And guess which one of my parents I hate?
Elspeth wouldn't try hard as she did, to earn her father's approval if he was like my mother. She'd just give up on him and go her merry way.
Yes, everybody knew she wasn't fit for military duty because of who she is, but one had to take the mantle of being the heir after her brother's passing, and Elspeth did it to prove that she was better than him, as well as to keep the tradition.

He behaves identically even when he only talks to her,
Elspeth has never been put in the background, she simply cannot accept her limits

Regarding the army you are certainly right, but she entered it of her own volition and does not want to accept its functioning

Elspeth values Valentine's honesty more than his love. So she doesn't mind Valentine telling what's in his mind, even if it's not what Elspeth wants to hear.

My criticism is not that she wants to be told what she likes, but that she has to orchestrate the entire relationship.
During the relationship, any personal revelations she makes are a bonus because Valentine did what she wanted. He throws herself at Valentine's feet at every chance.

She is the LI with serious problems in this STWA as Kim was in the previous one

 

[maroek]

Uhh.... you do realize that scene is about how Valentine's subconscious is aware that Elspeth is a liar? And that he thinks she's the opposite of him? And he's worried that she could be a danger to him and the people he cares about?

No, he doesn't think she is a danger to him. He sees the killer in her eyes. The same eyes he has.
Davis explains it exactly like that: I saw the same look in your eyes.
Looking someone in the eye, when they are about to do what they do best is terrifying. And they are both killers. Ergo, they are both dangerous AF. But that doesn't mean they want to or will hurt eachother. Besides, both Valentine and Elspeth would've recognized that look if the other had it already.

Is she an active duty intelligence officer who has been given orders to spy on Valentine?

No? Well then she's just a creep.

Once a spy, always a spy. Just like being a killer. Doesn't mean she'll use those finding against Valentine. And I understand why she would make some people uneasy but she just doesn't make me. And apparently not Valentine either since they seek eachothers' company dating or not.

See that part right there? That's the provocation we've been accusing Elspeth of.

The idea that she could intimidate them by boasting about her service record is incredibly stupid. How would they know if she's telling the truth? They don't have acess to her military records, and she certainly doesn't look intimidating at all, so of course they're going to think she's full of shit. All they see is a scrawny woman insulting them and boasting about how easily she could beat them up.

Her actions ensured that the fight would happen.

You think Elspeth is the reason of that fight, just because she tried to intimidate a tiny boy on coke? She is a god damn veteran. She has martial arts training, so much so that she trains Viridiana, who has been trained by Valentine way earlier in her life. She's bigger than that boy. I mean, look at them:



You expect Els to put her tail between her legs, run away, and leave Valentine there? I'd be furious to STWA if he played the encounter like that.

Well, they got their lesson.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Dude! Valentine gave them an escape route, with his mouth he told them he didn't want to fight them and with the rest of his body that they didn't scare him in the slightest. In this situation they could easily say he was a coward and run away while saving face. Elspeth screws everything up, after her arrival they can only fight or be thought of as cowards

Well, they got their lesson.

And potentially Valentine as a professional fighter could get into trouble

 

[maroek]

He behaves identically even when he only talks to her,
Elspeth has never been put in the background, she simply cannot accept her limits

Can that be because of the golden boy's passing and left her the only choice for the throne? We only get some hints about how she was ignored when she opened up to Valentine on their home date.
And I don't mean she was treated badly or summat. They just didn't care for her as much as they did for her brother. And as a not-favourite child, I know exactly how she feels. In fact, I kinda acted the same way Els did, tbh. Maybe that's why I am so fond of Elspeth. She reminds me of my sane and more collected self.

Regarding the army you are certainly right, but she entered it of her own volition and does not want to accept its functioning

There is a thing called duty. I knew I was too smart for military. I knew it was going to hit on my nerves to deal with everything about military. Yet, I went on doing my duty. Not because I thought I was going to enjoy it, but because I couldn't have lived with myself if I turned my back on my duty. I was a journalist, for fuck's sake. Do you think either I or the military wanted me there in a capacity that would suit my education or status? They put me in a room, before a radio for months. And I almost lost it because of constant boredom of being in a tiny room all the time. I had to smoke three packs of cigarette because it was forbidden to smoke in the radio room, and they couldn't forbid me to smoke. So it was the only way out of that room, even for short periods of time. I even volunteered for almost every patrol, just to get out of the radio room. And you have no idea what went in some of those patrols. But I was the best man, that ever sit in that room.
Same thing with Els. She didn't just do her duty, but she excelled at it.
Sometime the choices you have aren't choices. You have just one. And neither Els nor I had any other realistic options.

My criticism is not that she wants to be told what she likes, but that she has to orchestrate the entire relationship.
During the relationship, any personal revelations she makes are a bonus because Valentine did what she wanted. He throws herself at Valentine's feet at every chance.

She is the LI with serious problems in this STWA as Kim was in the previous one

Well, you go after the one you love. You can't blame Elspeth to pull some strings behind the scenes to get the boy. She opens up to Valentine, not as a reward like Pavlov's dog. She is trying to open up to Valentine and she is encouraged when he does the same.
And yes, you occasionally throw yourself to one's feet if you love one.

You guys really make Elspeth way way worse than she is. I can't believe we are speaking of the same Elspeth.

 

[maroek]

Dude! Valentine gave them an escape route, with his mouth he told them he didn't want to fight them and with the rest of his body that they didn't scare him in the slightest. In this situation they could easily say he was a coward and run away while saving face. Elspeth screws everything up, after her arrival they can only fight or be thought of as cowards


And potentially Valentine as a professional fighter could get into trouble

He certainly tried to de-escalate the situation. Tried to difuse it. What happens? DoucheBro calls it a bluf. Then Elspeth starts running her mouth. I call it intimidation, you call it provocation. And normally I'd be fuming if a woman provokes a fight which she won't be participating, Elspeth actually participates it. So I don't see any reason to hate it. Besides, Valentine neutralize the first DoucheBro without anyone being hurt. Elspeth takes a punch, then makes sure DoucheBro-2 regrets that punch. So in reality the only real fight there was between Els and DoucheBro-2.

I don't think Els coming into scene made it worse. Think about it a second: Valentine comes in between the girls and douchebros. Tells the girls to go away. The girls will of course take his words into heart and bugger off. Both douchebros will try to go after them. Now Valentine can't just neutralize both of them with locks. So he has to swing at least a punch that's powerful enough to make him pass out. And we found out how powerful his punch is, in Ep.7. Can you adjust your punching power so perfectly that you can decide if your opponent will pass out of pass on? I certainly can't. Then go on to neutralize the second one. Elspeth being by his side actually takes away the necessity of punching. He just locks the DoucheBro-1 and lets Els handle the DoucheBro-2.

So Els actually saved Valentine some legal bullshit by just being there.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Maybe that's why I am so fond of Elspeth. She reminds me of my sane and more collected self.

You guys really make Elspeth way way worse than she is. I can't believe we are speaking of the same Elspeth.

Maybe this is precisely the reason, you see a connection with his character and for me anyone who tries to meddle in my affairs or tries to make me advance at a time that isn't mine rubs me up the wrong way

 

[maroek]

Maybe this is precisely the reason, you see a connection with his character and for me anyone who tries to meddle in my affairs or tries to make me advance at a time that isn't mine rubs me up the wrong way

Plausible. I've went through some of the things Elspeth went through in life. And I see where she comes from.
Besides, most intelligent people will try to control people in their lives, because ordinary people can and do certainly very bad choices.
I mean I had relations with women of all education levels. And sooner or later I was trying to make choices for all of them, because they were picking the worst possible choice out of 100 others, even when I explain those choices in painful detail. So, fuck ordinary people!
And she doesn't do that to Valentine, because, contrary to his claim, he isn't a dumb dumb, and Els knows that. She just pushes him to seek mental health. Which is, overbearing for sure, but admirable, not something bad! You try to better people you love, not let them hang themselves.

And... Some our choices in life don't just effect us, but also effect those in our lives. And I'd advocate that the suicide of a loved/cared one is certainly effects those who care/love them.

Let me give you an example about Els and Val:

Els ruined the chances of Val sleeping with the American girl in the night club in Mallorca. That was meddling.
But she never tries to sabotage Val's chances with any LIs in the game. She even encourages Vi to open up to him. She also makes a gesture of sexual nature when Kana comes to see Valentine in the Centre.

Why do you think that? Because Els knows that the girl in the night club caries an unnecessary risk, while LIs don't carry risks, other than to her relation with Val. She acknowledges, dare I say, encourages Val to sleep with other women. She even talks about Val and Vi having sex in the next room, in Mallorca. Yet she doesn't say anything negative, because she and Val hasn't talked anything about going monogamous yet.

I mean, how is this meddling?

 

[Dr.TSoni]

But she never tries to sabotage Val's chances with any LIs in the game. She even encourages Vi to open up to him.

Cynically speaking she cannot antagonize Grasshopper, on Valentine's affective scale even as "little sister" Vi is higher in the hierarchy XD

I mean, how is this meddling?

For me the trick used during dinner with the father is to make the blood boil

 

[maroek]

Cynically speaking she cannot antagonize Grasshopper, on Valentine's affective scale even as "little sister" Vi is higher in the hierarchy XD

She isn't antagonizing Gingersnap. She literally encourages her to go for Valentine, multiple times.

For me the trick used during dinner with the father is to make the blood boil

I think she did that not for Valentine, but her father. You know, to see her father blurts out something Valentine isn't ready to hear. Or say something embarrassing.
But it isn't the nicest thing to do. I'll give you that.

 

[Alfred the Fallen]

You think Elspeth is the reason of that fight, just because she tried to intimidate a tiny boy on coke?

Yes. She directly insulted him by calling him soft and boasted about how she could beat him up after she already knew that he didn't find her threatening. There's absolutely no way that doesn't trigger a fight.

You expect Els to put her tail between her legs, run away, and leave Valentine there?

No, I expect her to diffuse the situation. I have been very clear about that.

The game has been insisting that Elspeth is a genius. She should be able to figure out how to help Valentine here, and yet she fails completely. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out, so she's either not a genius at all, or she started the fight on purpose. The most likely of the two is the latter, since we see her all but flat out tell the therapist that she started the fight on purpose.

Elspeth: In Mallorca. There were some mouthy little twats on the beach. They needed to be taught a lesson.

Shrink: And you thought it was your place to teach this lesson?

Elspeth: I made it my place. They swung first. I wanted them to swing.

 

[cxx]

She directly insulted him by calling him soft and boasted about how she could beat him up after she already knew that he didn't find her threatening. There's absolutely no way that doesn't trigger a fight.

that fight i'd want to see, both are bit (more or less) hardheaded so either won't giving up.

 

[MF_DOOM]

Sneak Peek 07/15/2024

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Getting back into the flow of things here, and while we don't have any scenes yet, you can take a little look behind the scenes.
While the lighting isn't finalised I'm really rather happy with how the general design of the new gym has turned out. Fun fact the design is very heavily inspired by my first MMA gym (minus the toilet), a tiny little hole in the wall, but one I miss.
And the rather stern looking woman above will be making her debut this update. I can't reveal who she is just yet, but I can assure you she's much nicer than her rather grumpy appearance would lead you to believe.

Anyway that's all the look behind the curtain I can give today, hope you have a lovely week!

 

[cxx]

small wc, all besides amrit will sit on that their knees near shoulders and cage looks small too.

 

[maroek]

Yes. She directly insulted him by calling him soft and boasted about how she could beat him up after she already knew that he didn't find her threatening. There's absolutely no way that doesn't trigger a fight.



No, I expect her to diffuse the situation. I have been very clear about that.

The game has been insisting that Elspeth is a genius. She should be able to figure out how to help Valentine here, and yet she fails completely. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out, so she's either not a genius at all, or she started the fight on purpose. The most likely of the two is the latter, since we see her all but flat out tell the therapist that she started the fight on purpose.

Elspeth: In Mallorca. There were some mouthy little twats on the beach. They needed to be taught a lesson.

Shrink: And you thought it was your place to teach this lesson?

Elspeth: I made it my place. They swung first. I wanted them to swing.

You think Elspeth could diffuse the situation when a 2 metre giant couldn't do it? I am genuinely curious how you'd propose her to do it? Screaming like a school girl who saw a mouse? Pulling Valentine's arm, and involuntarily giving douchebros an opening to attack him? Showing them her tits? Going down on all four and letting them have their turns? HOW WOULD YOU PROPOSE A WOMAN TO DIFUSE A SITUATION WITH TWO COKE HEADS?

So what if she insulted a puny douchebag in order to intimidate him to make him back off? And what happened after the intimidation check failed? SHE FUCKED HIM UP! So she was right about everything she said about him.

She tried to intimidate them. She almost succeeded it. But they were high on coke, and wasn't in the mood to follow reason. Say it with me you pancake eating MoFo: THEY WERE HIGH ON COKE!!! They weren't going to back off, no matter what.
How on earth you guys keep missing that?
Besides, I already explained that Elspeth being there, even if she instigated the fight though she certainly didn't, helped Valentine immensely.
It wouldn't have been possible for Valentine to stop both of them without harm coming to any of them if he had to deal with them just by himself. He would've needed to throw at least a punch and Valentine already one punched someone when he was 17 y.o. to protect Viridiana. He would have probably killed or seriously injure at least one of them, if not both. That is the exact reason why he doesn't like street fights. That's exactly why he is afraid of his capabilities. And you wanted him to go through almost the exact scenario, in order to save the exact same girl plus her friend? How distorted is your view on life and fiction depicting life?
Thanks to Elspeth dealing with one of them, all Valentine had to do was to lock the other one. No one harmed. No one ended in custody. And definitely no one ended up in jail or in morgue.

I am honestly astonished by the number of you guys keep missing that, just because you hate Elspeth. And although hating whoever you want is purely up to you, misinterpreting the whole ordeal just to make a point isn't cool at all.

So what if she's a genius? Do you honestly think a genius can pull off an option out of their ass in every situation they face? Yeah, she wanted them to swing. Yeah, her intimidation failed. So? You know, unlike Valentine joking about Elspeth's brain is magic, it really isn't. He's just joking. What's you excuse?

I really don't want to be insulting anybody in F95, and I definitely don't want to be insulting anybody who plays this game but you guys are really pushing it.

 

[ModiThorrson]

Wow this is still going on, hasn't it been like 12 hours?